Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-05-2008, 07:50 AM   #26
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

My gosh. I didn't want to get into bad blood politics so let's drop that aspect.

The elbow thing probably matters at a certain point. For example, I learned sankyo such that the most effective way was to grab the wrist below uke's wrist joint, and tuaght that for years. Dan Harden grabbed someone in sankajo and grabbed above the wrist. I wanted him to try it on me because in my minds eye I was going to drop my elbow and throw him! Ha! Well, lets just say things didn't go as planned!! Oh my gosh. he was baiting me to do that and had a more devastating "level" of that lock to put on me. Holy crap it was awesome. Anyway, point here is that until I met someone who was far beyond me in understanding that one I would have bet the farm that you had to do it my way (becuase that's what experience had taught me). I believe that this is the main value of aikiweb. People of different experiences get together and discuss from the various levels of understanding. Some people have special depth that we can take advantage of.

Corky, you and I are in agreement that if anyone pushes into me for nikkyo that they will become uke. I demonstrated this to an aikikai shihan not terribly long ago. I won't name names. But I can tell you he tried 3 times in a row. Each time, I took ukemi, but he and I both knew it was because I was allowing it. Each time he backed away doing that Japanese super polict backing away bowing thing. It was a face-saving let's pretend this never happened type of bow. I did that before I met Dan Harden.

I did the same resistance on Suganuma sensei and he planted me firmly on the floor. He doesn't push in. Neither to Gleason sensei and neither do any of my students.

There is a video put into discussion about nikkyo on this thread lets focus on that. Corky, if we can ever get together, I'll be happy to compare notes on nikkyo. We can even make a you tube video - or not. I don't care.

If you are 5th dan in some system and haven't faced anyone with enough resistance to prove this to you, GET OUT AND FIND PEOPLE - they will generally be more than willing to help.

Mark, trying this on people with structure puts you way ahead of me, but I'll try to soft power through you next time I see you! Win or lose that's it's all good.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 08:11 AM   #27
carlo pagal
Dojo: iloilo aikido dojo
Location: iloilo city
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 30
Philippines
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

the ikkyo was ok for me. but for the other video,in my opinion the nikkyo was poorly executed. that is why he was able to counter it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 09:56 AM   #28
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Okay, in an attempt to derail any further politics, where do you all set your mental intention ust prior to putting on your nikkyo? I have 2 places. The one that sets the direction of my spine's power seems to focus straight at them up and down. The other one, goes out to side a bit between a point where there is no crashing into the uke and then ends up focused between their head and shoulder. I'm not crytal clear on when I change from out to the side a bit to between their head and shoulder. I tend to shift with the uke, but that may be wrong. Any "nikkyo" comments are welcome, I don't care if it comes from someone I kicked out of my own dojos.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 10:16 AM   #29
Aiki1
 
Aiki1's Avatar
Dojo: ACE Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 346
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

To the people on this thread - sorry to have sparked a derailment of topic. My apologies.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 03:02 PM   #30
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I don't have a lot of trust in my nikkyo, so the only way I'd do it off the mat is with my elbow over uke's wrist. Then if it's not impressing him I can henka a sokumen irimi nage out of it.

I think I have a decent nikkyo, but I still surprise myself with a bad one now and then.

Yoshinkan solutions usually tend to be technique-based.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-05-2008 at 03:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 03:21 PM   #31
Shany
 
Shany's Avatar
Dojo: ISTA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 163
Israel
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements, just because you lock the arm very tight and the uke is just paralized with pain.

not to mention, u never do nikkyo from a static standing position..
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 03:27 PM   #32
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

What do you mean with "u never do nikkyo from a static standing position"? Do you mean as in "u never do nikkyo as an applied technique from a static standing position" or "u never do nikkyo as kihon from a static standing position"?

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements, just because you lock the arm very tight and the uke is just paralized with pain.

not to mention, u never do nikkyo from a static standing position..
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 05:57 PM   #33
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements, just because you lock the arm very tight and the uke is just paralized with pain..
My understanding is that when you do nikyo right, uke feels little or no pain. His center is taken, his structure collapses, and he goes down. Cranking a nikyo just to immobilize the partner with pain, instead of a superior structure, seems to me both unnecessary and sadistic.

R
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 06:21 PM   #34
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
My understanding is that when you do nikyo right, uke feels little or no pain. His center is taken, his structure collapses, and he goes down. Cranking a nikyo just to immobilize the partner with pain, instead of a superior structure, seems to me both unnecessary and sadistic.

R
I don't think that is necessarily true as pain and pain tolerance is relative, and varies from person to person. The key point being that there are lines of force which afford little to no resistance that would allow one to affect another's structure, and vice versa. So, it doesn't matter who is on the "receiving" end, so long as one can exploit the lines of force better than the other person.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 08:00 PM   #35
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I don't think that is necessarily true as pain and pain tolerance is relative, and varies from person to person. The key point being that there are lines of force which afford little to no resistance that would allow one to affect another's structure, and vice versa. So, it doesn't matter who is on the "receiving" end, so long as one can exploit the lines of force better than the other person.
Agreed. I was reacting against the idea that pain was the objective of nikyo. Precisely how much pain one can cause another is relative (as in yonkyo), so it makes more sense to have as one's objective a better structure.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2008, 04:09 AM   #36
Shany
 
Shany's Avatar
Dojo: ISTA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 163
Israel
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
What do you mean with "u never do nikkyo from a static standing position"? Do you mean as in "u never do nikkyo as an applied technique from a static standing position" or "u never do nikkyo as kihon from a static standing position"?
What I meant was that (Like many other techniques) the technique you perform is from a dynamic movement of you and uke, therefore there will never be a static motion, hench a lot of what you see on movies will not work just because the element of movement.

Now, if you did escape an applied technique, therefore the one performing the technique has a flow in his technique.
that would let you make a kaeshi-waza on him easily.

Weather the point of the movies presented here are to learn the flow of KI (which is cool) it's a whole ball game when you're both in dynamic movement.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2008, 06:53 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements...
I disagree...some people remain "grounded" even when moving, even when in "odd" positions where they look off balance, but they are not. You move them around as you please, strike, they block, you apply nikkajo, and they already have the ground supporting their arm and wrist, in a relaxed manner. The next thing you know, they pop you off and move in for a throw of their own. I've had it done to me, and at a low level, done it myself.

You can also adjust where your mind puts the focus, so that if they try to do nikkajo cutting in, you support it from your lower back, and if they do nikkajo cutting out toword you, you support it from the front of your center. Who ever is faster at switching focus usually wins that game.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2008, 10:13 AM   #38
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
some people remain "grounded" even when moving, even when in "odd" positions where they look off balance, but they are not. You move them around as you please, strike, they block, you apply nikkajo, and they already have the ground supporting their arm and wrist, in a relaxed manner. The next thing you know, they pop you off and move in for a throw of their own.
Yep. That's why I don't trust it. I prefer the hiji shime adaptation.

Do you MMA guys ever use wristlocks from the bottom position?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2008, 10:24 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Hijishime is beautiful. Works against the common man, aikidoka, judoka, BJJers, MMAers, whomever. Highest percentage waza for me when mixing it up. Many entrances to the waza. Many transitions to and from.

But a nice nikkajo well done is a thing of beauty too, though I tend to think of it mostly now as a barometer / training method for internal body work.

I'm not an MMAer, so I'll let them give you the answer on the other question, but I believe Royce or one of the Gracies used one against a sumotori. And won. From the bottom.

Best,
Ron (if it was me it would have been "squash like grape")

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2008, 02:53 PM   #40
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Me likee hiji shime. I used one against a wife beater a month ago who probably outweighed me by 75 pounds. Fight over in 4 seconds. The guy actually cried.

I never did find out what the deal was between him and his wife. But he was landing barefisted shots to her head when I came to the scene.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-06-2008 at 02:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2008, 03:40 PM   #41
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I'm not an MMAer, so I'll let them give you the answer on the other question, but I believe Royce or one of the Gracies used one against a sumotori. And won. From the bottom.

Best,
Ron (if it was me it would have been "squash like grape")
It might have been Royce Gracie against Akebono.. He seems to be applying a hijishime / omoplata type of lock..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0_svVIDORQ

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2008, 06:59 PM   #42
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
Location: Manila
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 132
Philippines
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Me likee hiji shime. I used one against a wife beater a month ago who probably outweighed me by 75 pounds. Fight over in 4 seconds. The guy actually cried.

I never did find out what the deal was between him and his wife. But he was landing barefisted shots to her head when I came to the scene.
Way to go Bill. I'm glad that I know a person like you.

I was once rolling with a BJJer and while were both kneeling down he grabbed my lapel in a position which accommodates nikkyo and I immediately applied the technique. He didn't tap because he didn't know what was going on...but he let go and just grabbed his wrist...afterwards he asked me to teach him the technique...he choked me the next round...

Iking

Last edited by Enrique Antonio Reyes : 06-07-2008 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Added texts
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2008, 09:40 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I get wrist locks on some guys if they leave their arms out there. Usually they figure it out after the first couple of times and stop doing it. Never get straight nikkyo. Usually a wrist lock from a key lock position, arm bar, or omaplata.

Normally I use them as a distraction of a set up to move into a better position, rarely do they tap from them.

On the street, against an unskilled opponent, or with the threat of weapons they become more useable I think.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2008, 09:42 PM   #44
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Also note that omaplata is basically ikkyo using your leg.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2008, 05:44 AM   #45
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I think the only thing they share is the reversal. Where they differ is Ikkyo is a shoulder reversal that is supposed to control the body line, Oma plata is a pin. Also Ikkyo has very slim probabilities of being applied in a fighting format. Oma plata can be.
I think the major difference between stand-up (in aikido) and rolling is the lack of use of the legs to base a lock position. Most stand up locks are ludicrous anyway, but aikido locks are among the more open I've seen. Probably due to too much cooperation breeding a lack of understanding that has become rampant and changed the art.
With aiki (internal power) there is an increasing chance of following a persons body movement and controlling it throughout while retaining the lock in a sense,controlling their bodies "through" the lock.While I know many locks and all manner of reversals, I still only demonstrate how to apply them, and how to make them excruciating, or more controlling to the skeletal structure, in conjunction with how easy it is to undo them, and how vulnerable someone applying them is..
Consistent with all things, this is another example where that overly lauded and so often misunderstood "ukemi model" has ruined many a mans understanding of budo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2008, 06:27 AM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Agree with you Dan

Yes, that was what I was trying to say concerning the principles, the structure in controlling the spine/bodyline is what is similar from the shoulder joint down to the spine.

Also agree with the fact that the reasons standup locks don't work in a BJJ format.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2008, 07:05 AM   #47
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Do you guys want to put together a list of locks we think work (and maybe how)?

Example: Sanke jo to get out of a headlock.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2008, 08:42 AM   #48
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
how to make them excruciating
HA! I thought maybe that you didn't realize how terrible you made them feel! I assumed you used to have to put way more into your locks before you had 3 or 4 significant power jumps.

As far as the current discussion goes, even in my own very limited wrestling experiences, if I get to be on top and lying across of someone (on their back) who has an outstretched arm, I may go for that lock where you say:
grab their right wrist with my right hand
wrap my left arm around their arm
and grab my own right wrist
(which I use for inside shihonage, and pinning sometimes)

I'm not saying someone more experienced couldn't take me apart, but I always go for stuff like that to find out.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2008, 09:24 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Wink Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Do you guys want to put together a list of locks we think work (and maybe how)?

Example: Sanke jo to get out of a headlock.
I think you focus on the wrong things when you focus on the "locks". That is the problem with the paradigm you see alot when you approach it as a technique of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo.

IMO, it is not the lock that is at issue, but the body control/spine control that matters. Joints allow you access to the core. It can assist you in kuzushi if you are not in control of the core and allow you to move in a manner to control the core more effectively...but it is not the lock itself that matters to me as it is only a means to an end.

This is assumes that your endstate is to submit or sustain control of an individual for a period of time, or to create distance to escape or to use another weapon system.

To me that endstate is that they can no longer physically affect the situation. that might be that they are unconscious or pinned, cuffed or what not.

Sure sankyo can assist you in getting out of the headlock, but it is not the sankyo in and of itself that works, it is the fact that you access their core and the have to readjust in order to avoid that works.

Does it sound like I am splitting hairs?

Maybe a little, but try a sankyo as a pain technique on me and you may suprise me a little and get me to loosen up a little, but probably not. Keep in mind that the guy that has the headlock has other options.

From a BJJ context it doesn't work, because a skilled opponent understands position and the headlock is a transition to something else, so they will protect quite easily against your sankyo.

However, grabbing the arm can give you space to keep from getting choked, it can provide you a transmitter to reach his core, and allow you to start repositioning you hips and balance points to counter his movements and then start to work on taking him off balance, down to the ground and then you establish a side control situation, to knee on belly, to standing if you are in a multiple opponent situation or trying to create distance again.

I guess my point is that sankyo in this situation is the means to the end and is not the focal point.

That is why you will here BJJ guys say joint locks don't work. As Dan states, guys that know what they are doing or are providing resistance are moving too proactively and/or too fast to allow you to gain or maintain control solely based on the joint.

It is not that the sankyo is not present in these situations, it is just that the timing is such that you don't see it as the focal point as you do in some peoples aikido, or you move past that onto other things because the level of compliance and speed dictates that.

Ikkyo, Nikkyo, and Sankyo, IMO, are important in aikido as a teaching mechanism to teach you how to gain control of the core so you can learn to use Aiki.

As stand alone techniques....They are "mid range" techniques that are extremely difficult to apply in an empty hand situation. I think they are great tools for amplifying and making aiki training more challenging allowing teachers to get across the importance of various principles.

Just like bokken and jo training do the same thing in aikido.

If you are worried about non-compliant opponents, there are other base things that need to be understood and focused on in the order of priority than ikkyo, nikkyo, or sankyo...IMO.

Again, this is why you hear guys that do BJJ and Aikido both say that these things are not all that important in BJJ or you rarely see them.

Trust me, I tried, and still do from time to time. Hey, if it is there...use it....it sure beats grappling!

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2008, 10:31 AM   #50
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Kevin just made a point that I touched on earlier, but I don't think I stressed it enough.
I know some get mad but I see aikido as DR with a different "finish on it" so I discuss them as one. Not too surprisingly is it often seen that way in Japan as well- as a version of the same thing.

Aiki-age/aiki-sage, kokyu ho, various locks, projection throws and movements that look like waza, really aren't. They are training tools. You did them to learn to develop structure and internal power in your training. Now, dumbed-down aikido and Daito ryu made them "things." One-step, one-stop, kata 'thingie's" people now do as a waza. Something which they never were. In that sense the entire syllabary is retarded. I mean that in the sense of " failing to fully convey the reason the syllabus exists in the first place." It has failed to develop the internal skills (aiki) in the adepts through the practice of its waza, since it is being practiced as waza.

Sure enough, practiced as a collection of blending waza, many folks will be entirely happy and not know the difference as it fits their understanding and goals quite well.. So be it. But for those who actually wanted to know why things looked like they did, and what it was all meant to do- those folks are not going to get to where they need and want to go from doing things like locks and kokyu-ho and aiki-age as waza. It is why I continue to say , "Aikido...is full speed in the wrong direction." Meaning the art as practiced my many is not going to accomplish what it was intended TO accomplish.
It is also why many of Aikido's supposedly "martial waza" have never been taken too seriously by those who know how to fight.

Not stray too far of topic....
Fortunately some are currently engaged in taking back Aikido for the first time since its founding. They will imbue it with real power in execution in a new generation of men who will once again lend the art the real credibility it once had, and it once deserved. It is my hope that they do not turn their skills and knowledge into opportuniteis to host $eminar$, but keep it as a Budo and help the next group along.
Should be an interesting ten years.

Last edited by DH : 06-08-2008 at 10:45 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why is Easy So Hard to Learn? SeiserL Columns 27 09-11-2011 04:57 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate