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Old 12-08-2007, 06:46 PM   #1
graham
 
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Would you teach this knife technique?

Having experienced only Ki Aikido, I went to watch another style of Aikido last night and was surprised at some techniques I saw.

The Sensei was demonstrating a few Tanto techniques, and I'm sure that they were helpful as extensions of the empty handed versions. However, they were described as responses to when you have someone place a knife to your back when you are taking money out of the cashpoint!

I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:
Give Them your Frickin' Money!
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:40 PM   #2
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Not everyone thinks the same as you.

What if he was planning on using that money to buy a gun so he could kill some children?

Committing a crime brakes the social code we all choose to live by, not resisting such an attempt is in a very real way condoning it.

It's easy to say "let the police handle it, that's their job". It's also easy to stand aside when someone kidnaps a child (the police might eventually catch them), or rapes a woman (the police will be by sooner or later), but not everyone feels the same way.

We all pick our battles, for some a few dollars are just that, for others it's the difference between eating or not, for others still, you can't put a price tag on freedom, and it might be worth dying for.

To each his own...

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Old 12-08-2007, 10:05 PM   #3
Don
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

The real issue with knife techniques is that 99% of the time they are practiced slower than a real knife attack, and are taught in the way that other weapons techniques are generally taught - single comitted attack with insufficient control to respond into a second following attack. Add to that they typically aren't practiced on a regular basis and you have a potential recipe for disaster. On the one hand the technique you practiced last night might save your life. On the other hand, if you aren't used to continuous slashing attacks, resistance, and the reality of how easily you can get cut, then you might find yourself holding your guts in your hand. I am a big advocate of practicing with a practice knife that has magic marker on its edge so that people can gain a real sense of how they HAVE to control the knife and how easily they can get cut. In any event, it is always wise to remember that the guy who brings a knife to a fist fight has a huge advantage.
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Old 12-09-2007, 04:55 AM   #4
Amir Krause
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Don McConnell wrote: View Post
The real issue with knife techniques is that 99% of the time they are practiced slower than a real knife attack, and are taught in the way that other weapons techniques are generally taught - single comitted attack with insufficient control to respond into a second following attack. Add to that they typically aren't practiced on a regular basis and you have a potential recipe for disaster. On the one hand the technique you practiced last night might save your life. On the other hand, if you aren't used to continuous slashing attacks, resistance, and the reality of how easily you can get cut, then you might find yourself holding your guts in your hand. I am a big advocate of practicing with a practice knife that has magic marker on its edge so that people can gain a real sense of how they HAVE to control the knife and how easily they can get cut. In any event, it is always wise to remember that the guy who brings a knife to a fist fight has a huge advantage.
I fully agree about the practicing part, after a certain stage and in the right proportion.
Learning is achieved only with a certain success rate, achieved in a consistent manner, if one succeeds too often - he does not learn, but failing every time and for different reasons each time will also teach one nothing.

The teaching of techniques should be slow, to let everyone see all the details.

Continuous attacks and other "sophisticated" behavior on the Knife attacker side should be practiced. But again, the quantity should be carefully adjusted. A good teacher will also keep reminding his students that fighting against a knife means starting at a huge disadvantage.

Amir
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:45 AM   #5
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

IMHO, (coming from an FMA background), some training in tanto is better than none. That being said, very few people train (or even understand) the reality of knife fighting. Some of our training is in learning the principles, not the practicalities.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-09-2007, 01:02 PM   #6
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Thanks for all the responses, folks.

I've just come across a piece by Dunken Franics that I thought some of you might be interested in:

http://www.aikidoauckland.co.nz/Blog...9/Default.aspx
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:35 PM   #7
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

I agree that understanding reality in knife defence is a big issue. I've told my students that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

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Old 12-09-2007, 02:58 PM   #8
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

I'm currently of the view that almost all of aikido tanto techniques are *not* valid for "real world" knife attacks. And definitely not against someone who knows how to use a knife.

Here's my repost from an E-Budo thread regarding knife attacks. How many do you practice against?

==========================
Just some food for thought ...

What can a knife do?

Well, obviously, cut. It cuts either pushing or pulling. So, an incoming blade might not connect on the initial attack, but it can cut on the retreat.

Stab. This is just a thrust of the blade into a body area. The nasty version of this is when the attacker leaves the blade buried in the body so that each time the body moves, more damage is done. Who has time to remove an embedded knife in the middle of a fight?

Pick. Perhaps not so "life threatening" (although it can be), but this is when the tip goes into skin a slight way and then pulls outward in a somewhat sideways fashion, taking a chunk of skin with it. If part of the chunk is an artery, it's not good. Enough successful picks can be demoralizing. That's a fight ender.

Core. Nasty little cut and can be very lethal. This is like coring an apple. The knife goes in and then moves in a coring fashion. Picture this little maneuver in the armpit. Just a second or two to sever the artery and death is 99.9% certain. How often do we think about protecting the armpit area?

Flay. An ugly little attack. This is where the knife starts a cut, is turned sideways to the body area, and then the knife is drawn along the body area. This detaches whole sections of skin and muscle. Picture the knife coming in, a block is used, and on retreat the knife flays down the arm, cutting flesh and muscle. It's very disconcerting to see a huge flap of skin and muscle hanging from one's arm, along with all the blood it produces. Very demoralizing.

Impact. The handle can be used as a blunt instrument. Hit a nerve complex, a soft target, or bust a knuckle, and this gives time for the next attack which will most likely be one of the above.

Traps. Either with blade in or blade out. Can be used to temporarily block/neutralize an attack while setting up any of the above. Blade out only requires a slight turn of the wrist to cut, etc. Blade in cuts as part of the trap.

A competent (not expert) knife fighter can do multiples of these in one attack. An expert will do multiples, but one or more will be lethal. But, still, never discount the amateur. He/she could do any one of them just by flashing the knife around while trying to cut you.

IMO,
Mark
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:33 AM   #9
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Graham Old wrote: View Post
Having experienced only Ki Aikido, I went to watch another style of Aikido last night and was surprised at some techniques I saw.

The Sensei was demonstrating a few Tanto techniques, and I'm sure that they were helpful as extensions of the empty handed versions. However, they were described as responses to when you have someone place a knife to your back when you are taking money out of the cashpoint!

I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:
Give Them your Frickin' Money!
How do you know they won't kill you after you give them your money? Secondly how do you know thats really a knifte they are holding to your back? Could be a pencil.

For me personally, Id risk getting stabbed in the back, than opposed to them holding across my throat. But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

And yes I have been stabbed multiply times before. So I know what it feels like.

Last edited by Pierre Kewcharoen : 12-10-2007 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:36 AM   #10
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I agree that understanding reality in knife defence is a big issue. I've told my students that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI
If the guy doesn't have a knife to your back or to your neck, you should just run or grab something bigger.
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Old 12-10-2007, 08:15 AM   #11
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
How do you know they won't kill you after you give them your money? Secondly how do you know thats really a knifte they are holding to your back? Could be a pencil.

For me personally, Id risk getting stabbed in the back, than opposed to them holding across my throat. But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

And yes I have been stabbed multiply times before. So I know what it feels like.
Sorry, but IMO, a knife at the back is just as serious as a knife to the front, a knife at the throat, etc. It takes a fraction of a second to cut under the armpit or inside the leg from the back, you'll never see it happen, and by the time you feel it, it's far too late.

Mark
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Old 12-10-2007, 08:21 AM   #12
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I agree that understanding reality in knife defence is a big issue. I've told my students that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI
However i tell my training partners that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

Different pov's, i think.

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Old 12-10-2007, 10:17 AM   #13
Amir Krause
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

I am not sure a static knife adjacent to your body is worse then a knife further aeay and on tis way to you. The first is clearly aimed as a threat, the latter still attempts at a stab.

In the first case, if money is all they ask for, give it, they could have been taken it of your dead body.
However, if the knife weilder demands you to follow him, things could still get worse, look for the best opportunity and fight for your life.

Obviously each here comes from a different place, thus the threat and concepts for S.D. are slightly different. The chances of a kidnap victim to end alive are very poor here, particularly if it is an act of terror (most cases with adults). Worse, his family are likely not to get his corpse or get any information of his situation for years. Robbery at knife point is extremly rare (except for elderly people) but if that is the situation - give the money away.

Amir
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Old 12-10-2007, 11:05 AM   #14
graham
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
For me personally, Id risk getting stabbed in the back, than opposed to them holding across my throat. But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)
You'd really risk your life for money?

I can't imagine a) ever valuing money more than my life or b) ever really being confident enough in my own Aikido to risk my life on a technique that we rarely get to practice.
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Old 12-10-2007, 11:07 AM   #15
Nick P.
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Option 1: throw money at attacker as distraction, try to evade, call the police. As pointed out, they could have REALLY attacked you and taken the money off your corpse. In essence I agree with your "give them the money", because a dead hero is still dead.

Option 2: try and neutralize the attack, pin the assailant AND contact authorities at the same time, receive key to the city....

My wife took a cut to her chin when grabbed from behind while being mugged; classic one arm around the neck, the other with the knife at her chin/neck.
The cut she received happened while trying to hand over her handbag, and was likely not intentional. She gave chase (a basic instinct she readily admits to being silly), and luckily only got a kick to the stomach, after which the attacker fled.

To our knowledge, no children were shot with the $17 that was in her bag at the time.

You want to get into it with someone holding a knife AND has the advantage of already being at your back? Be my guest, just tell me which hospital or funeral home you'd like your flowers delivered to.

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Old 12-10-2007, 11:45 AM   #16
Nick P.
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

And yes I have been stabbed multiply times before. So I know what it feels like.
How did you get stabbed if you would never let it happen?
Curious.

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Old 12-10-2007, 01:53 PM   #17
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
If the guy doesn't have a knife to your back or to your neck, you should just run or grab something bigger.
I agree 100%; as long as you have that option.

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Old 12-10-2007, 04:50 PM   #18
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

I agree with Mark-most aikido knife defenses will gets you killed or cut up with someone who knows what they are doing. FMA do a good job-give me a kali/escrima stick any day. Better yet 2 if I have to take on a knife.
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:36 PM   #19
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
However i tell my training partners that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

Different pov's, i think.
That was certainly a very polite way of saying that first video was very stupid and very far from reality.

Interesting that youtube required me to confirm my birthdate on the second video.

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Old 12-11-2007, 04:21 AM   #20
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Hi all,

My honest opinion is reality training is 100% reality training and dojo training is just dojo training. SD classes should be conducted by trained instructors with the necessary law enforcement and military background. Tanto-dori and actual knife fighting are at two ends of a pole.

I have seen enough of armchair MA instructors passing off as SD specialists teaching flashy and fanciful techniques to believing students. These students would have better chances of staying alive and being unharmed being passive than using those techniques taught. Some of these students are so hyped up with confidence and arrogrance, reminding me of the kids from the "Cobra-kai". The difference is that these guys are men in their 40's and not teenagers from the movie. I know, I train with a couple of them who frequently visit our dojo. If you honestly believe that you fight the way you train and the probability that you will, I suggest then that you seek a well-qualified instructor with that background and in proper environment.

Just my two sen (that's USD0.59)

Best training

David Y
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:52 AM   #21
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote: View Post
How did you get stabbed if you would never let it happen?
Curious.
This was my pre-aikido days, went to go visit a highschool friend at a college and got lost in a bad neighborhood and got jumped by 4 gangbangers. Two of them weilding box cutters.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:57 AM   #22
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Graham Old wrote: View Post
You'd really risk your life for money?

I can't imagine a) ever valuing money more than my life or b) ever really being confident enough in my own Aikido to risk my life on a technique that we rarely get to practice.
Its a different feeling when you know the attackers are prolly going to do something regardless of what you do. Hell I got stabbed AFTER giving the money and complying. My buddy got whacked with a pipe.

After going through that, anger sets in, and then you get into somewhat of vigilante mode. Chased and beat the crap out of one of the guys with blade still broken in my bicep. Broke his nose and not ashamed to say that I enjoyed that immensly.

Last edited by Pierre Kewcharoen : 12-11-2007 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:43 AM   #23
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Graham Old wrote: View Post
Having experienced only Ki Aikido, I went to watch another style of Aikido last night and was surprised at some techniques I saw.

The Sensei was demonstrating a few Tanto techniques, and I'm sure that they were helpful as extensions of the empty handed versions. However, they were described as responses to when you have someone place a knife to your back when you are taking money out of the cashpoint

I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:
Give Them your Frickin' Money!
More REALISTIC OPTIONS (TM) include (but not exclusive):
1) Leave as little money as possible (eg. a week's budget) in your cashpoint a/c.
2) If you physically need to withdraw large sum of money, get someone to go with you or do it online.
3) If you need to perform task #2 do it during the day time and if possible during banking hours.

These options when observed diligently you don't need to:
Give Them your Frickin' Money!
Boon.

Last edited by xuzen : 12-12-2007 at 01:45 AM.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:58 AM   #24
graham
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Its a different feeling when you know the attackers are prolly going to do something regardless of what you do. Hell I got stabbed AFTER giving the money and complying. My buddy got whacked with a pipe.
Thank for the reply, Pierre.

I suppose that I am particularly interested in this because a few years ago, I could have been the guy with the knife, broken bottle, pipe... (I say that with shame, not pride.)

With all due respect to the great Aikidokas on this forum, I've never yet seen anything from anyone that convinces me its worth risking defending myself from an attack like this. Regarding the moves I saw at the other dojo, they just wouldn't have worked, not ever.
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Old 12-12-2007, 02:39 PM   #25
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Demetrio,
From that video, any suggestions on how to save yourself from that? Turning and running looks like a dead end too. The only thing I've learned (not practiced) is getting off the X (off direction of attack) while drawing pistol.

Eric
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