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Old 06-05-2008, 12:43 PM   #51
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
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Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Okay fair answer to a poorly expressed question. I _meant_ a different question:

Assuming you are fundimentally convinced that Osensei's and Takeda sensei's martial arts were martially effective against other martial arts - that they were then and they must still be now. And you want that but don't have a very direct way of approaching those skills yourself. What do you do?

Some, have tried to up the progressive resistance looking for inspiration. I believe that is what David's video represents and also what I have seen from Chris H. I respect the attempts.

Some look at the approach and recognize that getting there without different help is unrealistic so they decide it is pointless and give up on that aspect. I can understand such an attitude but I'm just not wired that way.

I'm sure that there are other flavors too. I just dislike the transcend devoid of transform approach. I think it is delusional at best and snake oil at worst.

Rob
Have you found someone who teachs Shoji Nishio's Akido yet?
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:43 PM   #52
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: effectivness of technique

Huh, right there with you, Rob. If you mean what I think you mean, I mean, oh never mind....

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:46 PM   #53
rob_liberti
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Re: effectivness of technique

William, I got some names to check into when I next get a chance.

Ron, I think so too..
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:05 PM   #54
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Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

Here's a vid from David Valadez on YouTube. Ignore the content, and watch from about 1:29-1:31 and 1:50-1:53. The arm is completely outside his center. *IF* that's a "standard" technique or way of doing things, IMO, it's a bad technique. You lose power, control, and focus on uke in that instance.
Mark, you are right. That way sucks. You really have no power and you end up using a lot of arm to regain the centerline, which usually doesn't work in a fight.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:45 PM   #55
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: effectivness of technique

Re: effective people vs. techniques.

True enough. There are major differences between Aikido practices. In some dojos, it's more like Daito Ryu. In some it's more like... I dunno. Yoga? Ballet?
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:26 PM   #56
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
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Lightbulb Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
It seems like some folks have decided that since I find joy in seeing someone do freestyle knowing that every single technique they are doing may not be effective if they did not have an aikido uke, that some how we don't teach real Aikido.

So here is my question....is every single technique that every single student does in your dojo guaranteed to be martially effective every time they throw?

Earnestly,
Mary
Its definitely hard to answer especially in the advent of mixed martial arts. martial artists before strikes with real intent increasing the chances of an Aiki practitioner to apply his art. however a lot of the new breed of martial artists these days use strikes as a set-up...

We probably need to adjust our training to the realities of today if we really want to be effective...free style or not...
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:27 PM   #57
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
We probably need to adjust our training to the realities of today if we really want to be effective...free style or not...
Yeah. What he said. In fact, that goes double for me.
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:45 PM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: effectivness of technique

Well if that is your goal, to adjust your training to the realities of today, (whatever that may be for you), then that is how you should train. Setting your conditions and environment up in that manner and then focusing your training based on that.

Why limit yourself by training paradigms and methodology that is clearly not designed to support that goal?

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Old 06-06-2008, 01:12 AM   #59
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Why limit yourself by training paradigms and methodology that is clearly not designed to support that goal?
Good point. This seems to be the basic question. I keep Aikido as my core because I want it to be my philosophy in life. There are techniques which I feel effective and there are some that makes me chuckle...i try my best to identify the "realities" of the need to defend myself and supplement my aikido with other things that I am more comfortable with...no specific prescription...again it really depends on your own goal as quoted above.
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Old 06-06-2008, 10:04 AM   #60
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: effectivness of technique

Philosophically speaking, I consider myself to be at an Aikido stage in my overall martial arts development. After the Korean dojang I'd been training at moved upstate, I assessed my abilities and decided I needed some throws to round myself out.

I've studied Aikido exclusively for over four years, so I consider myself to be a serious student. And I really like my dojo, but after I make Shodan next year I'll likely split and head for a tactical school. I have also trained extensively in Yoshukai & Goju Ryu Karate, Shao Lama Kung Fu, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do.

Having said all that, my version of "realistic and effective" is to apply Aikido skills to ones I already use. Not to limit myself to just Aikido because that's what I'm studying currently.
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Old 06-30-2008, 10:02 AM   #61
Counsel
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Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Mary Eastland wrote:
So here is my question....is every single technique that every single student does in your dojo guaranteed to be martially effective every time they throw?

Earnestly,
Mary

Fact is that Aikido isn't like every other martial art. The whole foundation of the art is based on a contradiction.

From the Aikido Teachings article right here on Aikiweb in the words of the Founder:

'Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family. The secret of aikido is to make yourself become one with the universe and to go along with its natural movements. One who has attained this secret holds the universe in him/herself and can say, "I am the universe."'

You can spin your interpretation of the above quote any way you like, but the simplest reading remains the literal meaning of the words and therein lies the paradox - what is a martial art that is 'not an art to fight enemies with'? How each of us, as students of Aikido, through our training and study attempts to resolve the paradox determines the form our Aikido takes.

Best,

Ron
For me, Aikido is right for me. I doubt there is only ONE right way, and I wonder why people seem to have a need to feel that there is... O-Sensei's religion appeals to me in the way it unifies peoples regardless of the religions differences. I look at it as "God asks me to worship him thus, although I see that he asks you to worship him in a different way. Why should I think my "way" is any "righter?"

I am just beginning my journey in Aikido--having studied in ju-jitsu for some years.

Aikido can be Aikido and be effective in any "real" world situation. I don't think O-Sensei was saying that Aikido is not effective in a fight. Like ju-jitsu, aikido teaches methods (what I call ways to affect the opponent). Whether it be a wrist lock or a throw. There are only so many methods.

I read the passage as saying his vision was to provide a way to control yourself and "center" yourself so that others, whomever they might be, can not "Un-center" you. That way, you are in control. People can react as they will, and you stay "centered" within yourself.

The validity of the technique is not the issue. Just because "Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them," does not mean the techniques can not be so used. Rather, the aikidoka should realize that while the techniques, or their derivatives, may be quite effective, the "Art" was not created to teach you to fight (to beat opponents) but to teach you to improve yourself.

In other words, your ability to "beat" an opponent has little to do with whether or not the aikidoka has to resort to such things to get an acceptable outcome for all involved--my guess is that O-Sensei would have talked himself out of the issue long ago or simply disagreed with the person and moved along...

If I disagree with the question, I would respond

"For me, Aikido is .... Thus, I do not think doing X is appropriate (for me)." That is not saying "you are wrong" but "it is not right for me." I do not think the Way, for me, would let me say anything else.

I seem to recall, somewhere , that Aikido is the Way of Harmony. For me, Aikido is allowing others to have opinions that differ from mine (e.g., all those different religions) and me accepting that others may live differently than me--such differences do not make me, in any way, less "right" for me.

In that spirit, you are welcome to your opinion, as is everyone else. However, any one person's opinion (or many together) do not make that "way" right for me any more than my way is "right" for you.

Only by me accepting this and acting as I do can I be harmonious with those around me--since, of course, we,even in the Aikido community, are all different..

James Taylor
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:33 AM   #62
Mato-san
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Re: effectivness of technique

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I tend to think of waza in two categories: practical and principle. Some are very practical. Some are designed to teach the principles that often make the other techniques practical.
Lynn that is the best quote ever. Should be written in stone, on the Aikido wall of reality, and everywhere else I consider an Aikido landmark. More and more people should come to understand this, instructors should teach this.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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