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Old 05-31-2008, 07:42 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Erick wrote:

Quote:
Professional warriors, which I was at one time, are by necessity belligerents, whose ultimate task is, in the necessity, killing people and breaking things, and nothing more sophisticated than that, though the means to do it are increasingly sophistcated There is intellect, effort and skill involved -- but there is no art in the doing of it, as there is no virtue in it either.
I would agree with you 10 years ago almost categorically. From your perspective in what you did, yea I'd see this point of view.

As an infantryman today, I spend more time doing relationship building, teaching..working jointly with other services, and with coalition forces, and with locals in their communities.

Our doctrine covers a wide range of events from warfighting to nation building.

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Old 06-02-2008, 06:56 AM   #27
Marc Abrams
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

William:

Imaizumi Sensei gives to credit to what he learned from Nishio Sensei, so we share quite a bit in common!

Train hard, stay safe

Marc Abrams

ps.: Ushiro Sensei back at my school on 10/25 & 10/26. Now this guy knows what atemi is all about!
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:21 AM   #28
Dazzler
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
As I was trained, there are in every movement, properly done, many atemi. They require no choice to employ, they just occur by virtue of proper movement and maai. The only choice exercised is that of affirmatively protecting one's partner, by constraining the dynamic that results in atemi -- converting its expression into a less damaging form. If I lose that restraint and the spirit that motivates it -- I would strike with the whole body in the same movement whatever happened to be in the way of it.

.
Precisely Erick. For me, in a training context, the choice is exercised in order to practice other elements of Aikido particularly blending and smooth flow.

I don't see the need to deploy full atemi in practice so long as the awareness of openings for it remains.

Regards

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 06-02-2008 at 09:24 AM. Reason: crap english...should really delete the lot!
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:24 AM   #29
Budd
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

I suspect, like a lot of things - if you don't actually train to do it, then the ability to apply it when needed may be in question . . .
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:30 AM   #30
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Quote:
Erick mead wrote:
Professional warriors, which I was at one time, are by necessity belligerents, whose ultimate task is, in the necessity, killing people and breaking things, and nothing more sophisticated than that, though the means to do it are increasingly sophistcated There is intellect, effort and skill involved -- but there is no art in the doing of it, as there is no virtue in it either.
I would agree with you 10 years ago almost categorically. From your perspective in what you did, yea I'd see this point of view.

As an infantryman today, I spend more time doing relationship building, teaching..working jointly with other services, and with coalition forces, and with locals in their communities.

Our doctrine covers a wide range of events from warfighting to nation building.
But should it? The strategic art lies in avoiding, or minimizing the necessity. Those are aspects of statesmanship and larger political concerns which it troubles to see become the task of an army, on two points -- 1) that it causes the instrument to be used for things that degrade its primary purposes, and 2) the increasing resort to the instrument for things that are NOT its primary purpose makes the military a ready or preferred resource for solutions -- rather than last resort to remove violent impediments. That causes me concern over domestic stability, historically, as well the obvious geopolitical concerns, especially with the increased tendency to politicize the rhetoric of "War" -- "war on poverty," "war on drugs," "war on climate change" on "war on ___insert dislike du jour___" . Hammers, nails etc. ...

And in most things I would be seen as fairly right-wing...

Ob. Aikido -- the point of NOT striking is that you COULD HAVE struck -- but didn't -- and the target is keenly aware of that fact at the immediate moment and in recent memory. It is both a physical and moral restraint that determines what will come next.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-02-2008 at 09:37 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:10 PM   #31
senshincenter
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
James Cavin wrote: View Post
How many of you practice striking on a regular basis in your aikido?

Our instructor shows us how we might use our striking while doing our techniques, but i've only had one practice so far that has included some drills for them.

I've noticed that some people are of the opinion that striking is a must for their aikido. How many of you feel that it plays that much of a role?

Questions from a noob here so please don't flame me.
We practice striking regularly, under the premise of "you use what needs to be used" - our attempt to move out of and free from the confines of political imaginations (e.g. styles, forms, etc.).

Here's what it looks like:

Drills:
http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/atemi.html

Waza application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgF623TxWSI

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:30 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hey Ron,

What's up my friend? Question for you, in Yoshinkan aikido, did you/do you ever use knee strikes or elbows as forms of atemi in addition to the backfist or eye strike we typically do in Yoshinkan aikido?
Sorry it took so long to respond...

Not in frequent keiko that I remember now. Occationally in seminar settings...I remember as I type this some elbow strikes, usually to a downed opponant. I do think some of the basic movements can lend themselves to developing some good strikes though (hiriki no yosei).

I would say not as a matter of course though.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2008, 03:43 PM   #33
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
- our attempt to move out of and free from the confines of political imaginations (e.g. styles, forms, etc.).

Here's what it looks like:

Waza application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgF623TxWSI
Gee looks kinda familiar. We usually preface examples of this (adnuto adnicto) in the course of ordinary practice, with something along the lines of:

"Aikido teaches never to attack. There are many places in aikido movement where a strike can always land if we are not very, very careful. In our aikido training, we call these "mistakes." We try in practice not to make these "mistakes." So we must always be very, very aware of exactly where and how they can happen, if we are not very, very careful.

In reality however, mistakes happen.

Someone attacking disturbs your calm.
If you are not calm, you are less careful.
The more you are disturbed, the more careless you become.
The more careless you are, the more serious the "mistakes" that you make.
Which is a very unfortunate thing, because we never attack."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:07 PM   #34
senshincenter
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

That's one of those other political imaginations I try to get beyond: attack and defend. :-)

I'd love to see it sometime - if you can post a video or too, I'd be very grateful. I love to see what other folks are doing. I wish we could start a "video required" category of these forums. That would be so cool. Anyways, nice to hear from you Erick - been digging your posts lately. Thanks.
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:57 PM   #35
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Erick wrote:

Quote:
But should it? The strategic art lies in avoiding, or minimizing the necessity. Those are aspects of statesmanship and larger political concerns which it troubles to see become the task of an army, on two points -- 1) that it causes the instrument to be used for things that degrade its primary purposes, and 2) the increasing resort to the instrument for things that are NOT its primary purpose makes the military a ready or preferred resource for solutions -- rather than last resort to remove violent impediments. That causes me concern over domestic stability, historically, as well the obvious geopolitical concerns, especially with the increased tendency to politicize the rhetoric of "War" -- "war on poverty," "war on drugs," "war on climate change" on "war on ___insert dislike du jour___" . Hammers, nails etc. ...
I understand your point. I think there is a moderation or balance somewhere in the equation.

We are facing this very issue on the formation of AFRICOM right now. Where do the lines of statesmenship and military meet?

If you look at history, the U.S. has been successful in many people's opinion because we had miitary/statesman leaders like George Washington, who understood the balance of the role. Douglas MacArthur during WWII and after. The military must assume this role in the aftermath of reconstruction.

There are many other examples out there of things we do as military that are more aiki or strategic in approach, than long term. Frankly it is why I stay in the military because it is as much about prevention and deterence for me than it is about fighting.

Overall though, I agree and understand and support your point of view. The military should not be the primary provider of statemanship.

I could say a few personal comments, but being a military officer it is best not to comment on my personal perspective and opinions in the area of foriegn policy of which I am clearly not an expert in a public forum.

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Old 06-07-2008, 12:09 PM   #36
Martin Goodyear
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

For some time now, I've thought that the people who can probably make aikido work best in a fight are those that can already fight before learning aikido! They don't seem to have the same soul searching around the whole issue, and can just gradually develop their coordination, timing and confidence through aikido.

For the rest of us, I wonder is the occasional class should be given over to atemi, so that we can learn and understand it better in the context of aikido. I feel this would be useful because aikido is an unusual style, and I'm not sure that it combines well with other striking arts. For example, open palm rising strikes to the chin would seem more fitting than rear hooks, but don't appear too often in MMA events. I would welcome some advice on technical matters.

And yes, I agree it's a martial ART, rather than a MARTIAL art, but it's still a martial art.

Martin.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:43 PM   #37
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
Martin Goodyear wrote: View Post
For some time now, I've thought that the people who can probably make aikido work best in a fight are those that can already fight before learning aikido!
Martin, I enjoy reading your posts. Keep them coming

I agree with you about the fighters. Some have it, and some don't - that's beyond the techniques and drills of it all. For the rest of us, it is simply working on improving the odds.

Atemi takes practice, too. I see too many very lame and ignorant atemi in aikido. I think that in order to understand atemi - and how it applies to aikido - we have to learn how to do it properly. Precise movements and aims, from the center and with ki extension, et cetera.
Atemi is not a shortcut. It is just as complicated to do well as ikkyo or iriminage is.

Nishio sensei had excellent atemi, and many different ones. He got them from his profound karatedo experience. I remember that he told us that there are fifteen ways to use the hand to strike (but I am not at all sure that I remember all fifteen...).
Also, the target is of vast importance. Not just what to hit, but in what direction, and so on. It's like a science.
For example, the regular shomenate that almost every aikido student does in nine out of ten cases is quite meaningless as a strike (but not for causing a reaction in uke). On the other hand, if the hand is turned sideways, it can be a devastating attack to the throat or the nose.

Oh, I think I'm sliding from the ART to the MARTIAL...

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 06-07-2008, 02:26 PM   #38
Martin Goodyear
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

I definately think that a technichal analysis of atemi in aikido could make an excellent book - maybe you're up for the job Stefan. Or even a series of YouTubes.

I find it interesting sliding from the art to the martial, then back into the art again; and it's also reassuring to know that this is an option. My martial study is somewhat haphazard, with far more contemplation than practice.

Here's something I've been contemplating: the difference between a snappy atemi and a heavy follow-through atemi. For anyone of a geeky persuasion, it seems to me like the difference between a phaser and a photon torpedo! - with the latter being the snappy explosive strike.

My limited understanding is that in fighting tai chi they call this fa-jin, where the hips are already retracting before the hand (or whatever) hits the target like a wet towel whip. This takes a lot of relaxation, so I gues it's a fairly advanced technique for aikidoka. I think pad work would be most helpful for this, but it would also require some knowledge about how to use the hand, and where. In aikido, the moment where Uke becomes light and hangs in the void in mild surprise at the unexpected lack of resistance would seem to present the ideal window for such an atemi.

A tsuke or a slap that drops like a bag of cement would have the more phaser-like follow-through effect.

Forgive the analogy,
Martin.
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:26 PM   #39
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I understand your point. I think there is a moderation or balance somewhere in the equation.

We are facing this very issue on the formation of AFRICOM right now. Where do the lines of statesmenship and military meet?

If you look at history, the U.S. has been successful in many people's opinion because we had miitary/statesman leaders like George Washington, who understood the balance of the role. Douglas MacArthur during WWII and after. The military must assume this role in the aftermath of reconstruction.
True. Sherman is actually a good example, and understandably little liked though he may have been by many of my forebears (a cousin by marriage was the Confederate Secretary of the Navy, and my great-great-grandfather enlisted at sixteen and was captured and paroled after a year.) Despite all that, Sherman understood war as it is, and put no glosses on it, and approached the problem with the perverse combination of viciousness and humility it requires. He destroyed the ability of the Plains tribes to make war after the Civil War and then follwoed up by deeply criticizing their ill-treatment and exploitation after he had conquered them. The best testament to him is that Gen. Johnston, CSA, and his chief opponent in the Georgia and South Carolina campaigns -- served as his pall bearer when he died.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:12 PM   #40
Jonathan
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Its never seemed good to me to have people practicing a martial art who cannot throw a solid punch and who know almost nothing about how to strike. Apart from the incongruity of saying, "I'm a martial artist!" while being unable to execute an effective strike, there is the effect upon training that poor striking skills has. Personally, I don't think one can say they are engaging in good aikido practice with people who have only the barest idea of how to hit. Consequently, I spend a fair amount of time teaching my students how to strike well.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:35 PM   #41
Ketsan
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
James Cavin wrote: View Post
How many of you practice striking on a regular basis in your aikido?

Our instructor shows us how we might use our striking while doing our techniques, but i've only had one practice so far that has included some drills for them.

I've noticed that some people are of the opinion that striking is a must for their aikido. How many of you feel that it plays that much of a role?

Questions from a noob here so please don't flame me.
In our dojo we train by doing. We start off at 6th kyu with heavily stylised atemi done slowly and gradually we build things up until by about 2nd kyu you're throwing and recieving fairly powerful and free form shots. So you might start out with countering yokomen utchi with yokomen utchi at 6th kyu and end up throwing a hook or a straight punch by 1st.
Of course along the way you learn to deal with them, either by learning to ride with the shot, block it or parry it with a slap, or you just get hit.
Keeps you on your toes, builds your reflexes and generally makes for very alive training.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:34 AM   #42
Dazzler
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Re: Striking in your Aikido

Quote:
Martin Goodyear wrote: View Post
For some time now, I've thought that the people who can probably make aikido work best in a fight are those that can already fight before learning aikido! They don't seem to have the same soul searching around the whole issue, and can just gradually develop their coordination, timing and confidence through aikido.

.
...and you can take that to the bank

is that quote from a segal movie?

I think this capture my thoughts around this - as I've said earlier, I no longer see Aikido as a 'fighting' system so have no issue about using the tools of Aikido to extract other things.

I've seen the same in others who come to the dojo with a proven history - they bank that knowledge set and just add Aikido to it.

Thanks Martin.

D
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