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Old 05-28-2008, 10:24 PM   #1
KIT
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Force on Force Dynamics

Since we seem to be roving far afield in the Military Training Methodologies thread, I thought I'd start another here.

Kevin posted these of modern army combatives:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyzrVx2ahw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vNst...eature=related

And here are some ECQC (Extreme Close Quarters Concepts) ground evolutions demonstrating force on force dynamics, with guns and knives in the mix. Someone pointed out via PM that they would be good viewing:

http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

In my experience, any and all combatives training simply must be put through force on force testing to provide the greatest feedback and training value for real world application.
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:33 AM   #2
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Kit,

Boy, I am with you there. As every training drill has both attainable training goals (those the drill is constructed around) as well as "negative" baggage (most often included as safety constructs)that must be addressed with other drills, what would you say is the negative side of the drill you have posted?

What drills would you use to address the "negative baggage"?
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Old 05-29-2008, 12:30 PM   #3
KIT
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Well, first I wouldn't call it "negative baggage."

Kinda like eye and ear pro, no?

Its how you look at it. As no training fully replicates reality, concessions to safety are simply a key to being able to do repeat repetitions and not so damage your students (or expose them to unacceptable risks) that they are not able to actually perform what you are training them for.

The issue with force on force is the level of protection. A decent helmet simply has not been made that allows for full perception and full protection against both rounds and full on strikes. Even these helmets are less than ideal protection because sim rounds to get through.

The helmets add a certain unreality, but it is a tradeoff - what is more important? Training without a "martian" head and yet severely curtailing the confrontational dynamics, or training sans protection and severely curtailing the realistic dynamics - which many martial arts and defensive tactics systems do.

Realistic dynamics trumps the minor issues that protective equipment cause.

Even body armor is an issue. I prefer guys to train sim without it for the pain penalty - more important than training in your gear. You make up for that by training other drills in full gear to offset not doing so in sims training.

The same drill can be done without sim, (blue or red guns), contact can be limited (in other words, non-force on force training or limited force on force training), or certain techniques can be limited - and made up in other training.

When you view training as an integrated whole, as a system of training versus individual, unrelated aspects, you can put the varied pieces together to make up what individual drills lack, and address individual skill sets by either dialing down to the micro level or back out to the macro level.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:41 PM   #4
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Well, first I wouldn't call it "negative baggage."

Kinda like eye and ear pro, no?

Its how you look at it. As no training fully replicates reality, concessions to safety are simply a key to being able to do repeat repetitions and not so damage your students (or expose them to unacceptable risks) that they are not able to actually perform what you are training them for.

The issue with force on force is the level of protection. A decent helmet simply has not been made that allows for full perception and full protection against both rounds and full on strikes. Even these helmets are less than ideal protection because sim rounds to get through.

The helmets add a certain unreality, but it is a tradeoff - what is more important? Training without a "martian" head and yet severely curtailing the confrontational dynamics, or training sans protection and severely curtailing the realistic dynamics - which many martial arts and defensive tactics systems do.

Realistic dynamics trumps the minor issues that protective equipment cause.

Even body armor is an issue. I prefer guys to train sim without it for the pain penalty - more important than training in your gear. You make up for that by training other drills in full gear to offset not doing so in sims training.

The same drill can be done without sim, (blue or red guns), contact can be limited (in other words, non-force on force training or limited force on force training), or certain techniques can be limited - and made up in other training.

When you view training as an integrated whole, as a system of training versus individual, unrelated aspects, you can put the varied pieces together to make up what individual drills lack, and address individual skill sets by either dialing down to the micro level or back out to the macro level.
I certainly mean no disrespect when I said "negative training". I use that term for all of my own training exercises and drills in order to objectively isolate areas I need to build new drills for.

For instance and by analogy, Judo is great training for Judo but it must be augmented if you are training for MMA. Karo Parisian can make the best jacketless Judo throws in the MMA circuit. But the throws do not end the fight. What did he gain from Judo-- toughness, flow, continuity of the fight, some great technical skills on the ground. What was the negative training? He developed a style that instinctively goes for throws that do not end the fight or give him Ippon, and he ends up mounted.

Similarly, training Judo for Police work tends to create positional ground work that is dangerous, i.e. "Corner pin" - kesa gatame. You are open for knife stabs and Thalamus slaps that can knock you out.

What I notice in Police training as well as EP training are two things. Normally the "officer" gets to win at some point. Therefore, is the fight "real" in his mind. Is he really getting the adrenal dump he might get when his mind begins to wonder if he is the prey or the predator.

The second baggage happens in those department where the officer is constantly pitted against the DT trainer who is a ground grappling expert. The expert's smoothness with "Ju" can make him wonder if he has any skills at all because the sophistication of the trainer becomes the norm in his experience of a fight.

I have toyed with the idea (having been a K-9 handler) of putting agents in K-9 protective suits and give them a task. They know that a K-9 will be attacking them. But they do not know when or how many. They must try to complete their mission while you up the stress and his heart rate by releasing more dogs on him. Now he gets to experience real predators that are not his buddies. The objective is for him to understand the chaos of real, unadulterated and serious aggression.

What think you?
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:17 PM   #5
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Kit, good stuff. I agree with your responses regarding safety and tradeoffs.

Interesting things happen when you train like this.

Yes, you develop technical and tactical skills.

You learn how to operate under the general pressure of the fight.

You develop a warrior ethos, paradigm, and/or mind.

I don't think when you train in this fashion that the safety constraints impact you all that much in reality. In many ways, I think we even over train to a degree. That is, the attacker has much more skill, ablitliy, time or positional dominance than he might actually have in reality. We also constrain the attacked, for example to remain on the ground and not stand up, or not have any weapons, so he must work much more harder to maintain integrity or defend.

What you have to do is back away slightly from looking at this as a RBSD method of training, that is, "well if he does this...then I do this." and start looking at it from a "Experiencial" or "Feel" methodology. Yes, you train technically in the guard, mount, side control ala BJJ style, but when you do "randori" it is more about the feel and developing muscle memory skill or feel than about RBSD tactics.

So, my take on it is that the safety measure that we employ have an impact (obviously), but based on training like this day in and day out in different speeds, timings, positions, and situations...that you "layer" it out of the equation.

Keep in mind there is no way to guarantee 100% success out of every possible situation, but I think you do about as good a job as you can training this way. Much better than the ole kata, one step method.

So that is point one.

Point two, deals with the technical pressure of the fight. I think this is even bigger than the technical skills you gain. You learn how to operate under extreme physical and mental pressure and remain calm and breath. Again, I think this method "over trains" the pressure, you will experience more here more physically than you will on the street, albeit probably not as much mentally/emotionally. However, you do learn how to operate well under extreme violent persistent pressure.

Third, the whole warrior mindset.

At least for soldiers, I can't speak for LEOs, it sets the right conditions for developing warriors. What is most important is training guys to have not only the ability, but the willingness to fight. This is key for Soldiers. They may not have much technical ability, but just as in the movie "Rudy" we learn that attitude and willingness, and desire count for alot!

Good topic guys!

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Old 05-29-2008, 09:41 PM   #6
KIT
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Chris

Judo for MMA:

Okay. First off, throws DON'T end fights. Some do, some don't. You deal with what you get.

Having successfully adapted Judo for police work, I don't agree with you. Improperly adapted Judo, leaves you open for all sorts of stuff, but so does improperly adapted aikido, aikijujutsu, trad jujutsu, BJJ, MMA, whatever -all share similar dangerous habits from the respective rules of their competitions, their training, or their rituals.

Officers Always Winning:

If you are always training the officer as "winning" you are not training properly. That is low level, introductory stuff, which granted most people get.

It is by no means advanced training, and is not at all reflected in the video I posted which shows the good guy being disarmed and shot. But you need motivated students who can accept and adapt to that "advanced" stuff (regardless of how new they are) and understand its usefulness.

RE "smoothness with Ju" I don't get what you are trying to say. If you mean the instructor so outclasses the student it deflates him, I think the burden is on the instructor.

It is a poor instructor who cannot adjust his teaching and his receiving skills to elicit the proper behaviors from the student, and to do so progressively. Ultimately that does mean smashing the student, when the student is ready to be smashed.

In this way modern training has some similarities with koryu. There is a reason that the senior teacher is always in the uke role in combative arts. The senior should know just how much pressure the student can handle to draw the best out of him, while not crushing him, leaving him mentally depressed and defeated, and then sending him out to the wolves without the proper mindset.

We are getting into more complicated training theory, though.

Kevin addressed another aspect with his comment on over training - we are typically training against people with far greater ability, positional dominance, timing, etc. than ,most of those we will face;

This is a GOOD thing when trained properly, since it does two things:

It prepares us for the trained assailant, and it ups our edge when the odds are against us even against lesser skilled assailants;

And it prepares us to have greater leeway, a more level headedness, when we can dominate a real world suspect, even an extremely violent one.

This leads to LESS use of force and LESS injury, and/or a greater margin of safety for the officer when lethal force is justified, and a greater base from which to articulate a higher use of force.

Kevin is tracking and adding great details.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:49 PM   #7
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Thanks.
great answers
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:09 PM   #8
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Force on Force Dynamics

Kit wrote:

Quote:
In this way modern training has some similarities with koryu. There is a reason that the senior teacher is always in the uke role in combative arts. The senior should know just how much pressure the student can handle to draw the best out of him, while not crushing him, leaving him mentally depressed and defeated, and then sending him out to the wolves without the proper mindset.
As an instructor I am very aware of this when I train my guys. It is important to bring them along and walk the edge to bring out the best in them. Some times it requires totally dominating them to let them know that they have alot to learn. Most of the time it is working them in various positions, leaving opennings for them to see if they are picking up on them. Slowing down trying to get them to focus and relax, letting them reset, giving up position allowing them to dominate to see what they do, then exploding back out again and rolling to another positiion so you can work something else.

Some times you lose, the better they get, the more you have to start working. I love it when I finally have to start actually working hard to keep them from submitting me, then I know we are on the right track!

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