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Old 05-28-2008, 03:20 AM   #1
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Aikido Training for Policemen

Aikido seems to be the martial art of choice for Policemen in the Philippines. A website (Aikido Dojo) showing policemen undergoing training states that;

"If you teach a policeman how to strike a kick, to throw a punch, and to whip a chop then, this policeman will be motivated to apply this knowledge against the civilian that is being arrested and therefore there are more likely to cause injuries in violation of human rights."

I think this makes sense. What do you guys think?

(note that the quoted statement above was slightly modified to improve grammar)
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:25 AM   #2
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

I think that aikido is excellent for the police. I have done some police training, with very experienced police, and they were very appreciative of aikido.
Not only did they find it very helpful in their daily job, but also they were happy about the low level of aggression and damage in the aikido solutions.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:29 AM   #3
Peter Ralls
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Police work is variable, where situations requiring the use of force can cover a very broad spectrum. In a situation that doesn't require the use of a high level of force, kicking or punching a suspect is inapropriate. In such a case, the use of a controlling technique such as sankyo is much more likely to acheive the required result, the overcoming of the suspect's resistance with the minimum force necessary.

On the other hand, in a situation requiring a higher level of force, such as some of the scenarios described in the gungrab thread that are currently being discussed, if a law enforcement officer cannot effectively use strikes to defend themselves, they are placed at a much higher risk for being injured or killed.

For this reason, most comprehensive law enforcement defensive tactics training programs have to cover a broad range of situational responses, generally starting with control holds, and covering groundfighting, stand up striking, takedowns, handcuffing techniques, use of impact weapons and chemical weapons, carotid restraint, and ending with lethal force employing a firearm. In addition, use of force policy and the legal aspects of use of force need to be taught. In addition, defensive tactics is just one of many subjects that need to be addressed in law enforcement training.

Due to the lack of resources to allow any more than the briefest training time in defensive tactics, the training is by necessity shallow. No great amount of time can be spent in any one particular area because of the need to cover so much material. So to conclude, while it is my opinion that training in aikido provides great benefit to law enforcement officers, to use what limited defensive tactics training time that there is available for law enforcement personnel only for aikido would not fulfill the training needs of modern law enforcement.
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:12 AM   #4
SeiserL
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

IMHO, how you train is how you fight.

I have trained with many LEO on the mat. They all thought it was a good match for the job. Many had to use it and found it effective. There appears to be a few good adaptations specifically for LEO.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-28-2008, 07:10 AM   #5
Carlos Rivera
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Enrique,

I think that Aikido is a good match for police and law enforcement work. Not only do you learn techniques that can be applied to many situations which may lead to physical aspects, but you also learn about how to deal with situations through Aiki-centered verbal intervention.

I have been involved in law enforcement over 17 years and have used Aikido in various aspects, from the physical to the verbal intervention and it works. The main thing is to train earnestly, with purpose and to remember that Aikido can be more than a physical activity. Many of my colleagues have embraced the idea that it is a good reconciliation tool, and it is easy to defend in court.

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Old 05-28-2008, 07:57 AM   #6
KIT
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

"Aikido" is not really good for police. Just as "Judo," "BJJ" "Muay Thai" "MMA" are not good for police.....

Elements of each of them very much apply for police. As stated, Aikido has more application at the lower end of the spectrum. But some of it also comes in at higher levels of force, including weapon retention. Grappling, in general, is better for police than striking because of the nature of the work.

As a practice, I think any of them is better than the golf and soccer and fishing groups that seem to dominate most LEOs free time.

The Philippine dojo quote is one-sided. It addresses only low levels of force. If a suspect is trying to hurt or kill an officer, he can do whatever he needs to overcome the encounter.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:50 AM   #7
crbateman
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Good information on this subject can be found in books by Robert Koga, and also in videos by David Dye. I'm also hoping that Ellis Amdur and George Ledyard will weigh in on this.
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:23 AM   #8
Cyrijl
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

I think Aikido can complement the radio, gun,backup and authority that the police already have. Weapon retention and balance being the central factors I believe.

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Old 05-28-2008, 12:48 PM   #9
mickeygelum
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Quote:
I think Aikido can complement the radio, gun,backup and authority that the police already have. Weapon retention and balance being the central factors I believe.
Joseph Connolly
Very well stated, Sir.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:35 PM   #10
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

I am a police officer and I can say that Aikido has helped me deal with situations far better than my Judo or Karate training has, and I have been in some really impressive bar fights.

Anyone who says that Aikido does not work, needs to find a different dojo then, because the way I trained and what I have used, it has worked not only well, but very very well!!!! My 2 cents !!!!!
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Old 05-29-2008, 12:52 AM   #11
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Thank you for all the posts. I guess Aikido is very much applicable to police work. However, I understand that needs may vary especially in extreme situations.

Based on what I have read here I believe that cross training into the other martial arts is necessary but Aikido can indeed be the core regimen of policemen.

It can be the first method of defense...

Iking
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:40 AM   #12
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
Aikido seems to be the martial art of choice for Policemen in the Philippines. A website (Aikido Dojo) showing policemen undergoing training states that;

"If you teach a policeman how to strike a kick, to throw a punch, and to whip a chop then, this policeman will be motivated to apply this knowledge against the civilian that is being arrested and therefore there are more likely to cause injuries in violation of human rights."

I think this makes sense. What do you guys think?

(note that the quoted statement above was slightly modified to improve grammar)
I think it is equally important for a officer to know how to punch and kick as it is to known how to grapple and restrain. Sure, they themselves may not have to kick somebody or punch somebody, but knowing the proper way to apply those (and practice them) will better prepare them to defend against those attacks (compared to just training the defenses).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:49 AM   #13
d2l
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

I can tell you from a Correctional Officers point of view on Aikido. The Defensive Tactics that are taught, are well, just about worthless. What is taught is a heavily watered down version of Aikido. The use of joint manipulation is frowned upon unless it is absolutely necessary. For instance, when writing a report, you don't say, "I grabbed inmate P.O.S. by the wrist with my right hand, and pushed on his elbow with my left hand." you say, "I grasped inmate P.O.S. by the lower arm with my right hand, and grasped him by the upper arm with my left hand." How many of you have used techniques on Uke that involve controlling the head by cupping the base in some fashion, or by cupping the chin and leading them until they fall? In the new, kinder, gentler Dept. of Corrections, these are considered lethal "moves" because they deal with the head. Why? Because you may make poor little inmate P.O.S. fall and bust his head open on concrete. Just a punch is heavily frowned upon. The line between what is allowed and what is not, is so thin and fuzzy, that many an officer that were good people, have lost their jobs due to "excessive force". Never mind that in most peoples eyes the officer is justified (anyone with half a brain cell) because they could put themselves in that officers position and wonder what they would do in a similar circumstance. There is such a high liability issue, that the state for instance, would rather fire you and settle out of court, than defend you and fight for you. The world of L.E. is not the thin blue line, it is the big, gray, fuzzy blur. Another issue is that TIME is an important aspect when it comes to training. Unless the officer is dedicated, he/she will take nothing from the training, nor will they pursue outside sources. Formal training in Aikido has been very helpful for me, more as a source of stress release, but at the same time I have learned how to control someone fighting better. I dare say I can hide some things in Aikido within our use of force matrix. But one has to be very careful. The days of grounding and pounding a violent individual are over. We always have to keep in mind that the serial killer still has "rights".

Forgive me for going on this rant. This is a topic I am very passionate about.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:58 AM   #14
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

The above comment is sad to hear considering that correction officers put their lives on the line almost everyday...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Iking
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:39 AM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

My cousin works in corrections in Orlando. He's told me some scary stuff. Stay safe...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:55 PM   #16
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Quote:
Anthony Stebbins wrote: View Post
I can tell you from a Correctional Officers point of view on Aikido.... For instance, when writing a report, you don't say, "I grabbed inmate P.O.S. by the wrist with my right hand, and pushed on his elbow with my left hand." you say, "I grasped inmate P.O.S. by the lower arm with my right hand, and grasped him by the upper arm with my left hand."
I did a "five ball behind the wall" back in the late eighties. (Not really, I worked for the Illinois Department of Corrections.) Back then I was full of crap, in it for the adventure, tac team member, Goju Ryu practitioner, etc, etc, and was involved in a fair number of scuffles. Honestly, most of them were me and ten other officers taking someone down.

Back then, what was really preferred to write on the report was, "This officer restrained inmate such and such, using the least amount of force possible." At least now, with Aikido skills you can say it, mean it, and have some truly effective ways to get it done.
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:45 AM   #17
JamesC
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

It's interesting reading the differences just in report writing.

A sample of something we would write: "Detainee Joe Bloe attempted to strike me. The detainee was then restrained and placed on the floor. Deputy Blah Blah secured him in handcuffs..." etc.

Restrained, placed, assisted, secured are all words that work quite well when explaining your actions. Sounds so much better and means the same thing.
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:36 AM   #18
d2l
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

The state is so scared of lawsuits (even if inmate P.O.S. is 1,000,000,000,000x's wrong) that we are heavily restricted in what we can, and can not do. We carry no weapons, except the few that are allowed to carry a little can of O.C. gas. In population for instance, we are outnumbered 96 to 1. Have to keep in mind we are locked in there with them too. Good time to practice Randori lol. I'll give you an example on how it is for us in this state, and this comes just from a few punches. A buddy of mine who I promoted with was stabbed a few years back, by of all things a used syringe an inmate orderly stole from the hospital. My body who is a big guy, was stabbed in the arm after shaking down inmate P.O.S. cell (shake down means cell search in prison lingo). Inmate P.O.S. was mad that his cell was being shook down , he stabbed my buddy. My buddy responded my punching said inmate in the face a few times until the inmate stopped, and wound up sending the inmate out to an outside facility for medical treatment. A few weeks down the road, my buddy is talking to G Men about violating inmate P.O.S. civil rights. Another guy I work with, was stabbed in the eye a few weeks ago with a pencil. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, yeah Aikido definitely has a place, any of the Jutsu forms do. But how it is used and what is written may have to be two different things. After all, my buddy was talking to the feds about violating some P.O.S. civil rights over a few punches, even though he was the one stabbed. Imagine if it was some form of a Shihonage or arm bar that was used and something was broken?
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:56 AM   #19
KIT
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Anthony

FWIW

The attitude coming through in your posts is not going to help your cause in terms of casting you as the professional. I am surprised that if the Feds are actually talking to your compatriots about what happens where you work, you are actually posting like this on a public forum.
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:59 AM   #20
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

James

Where I work, we write what we did. It is more accurate, it doesn't make it sound like you are hiding something, and you can actually use your report to remember what you did four years ago when you are now sitting in court being sued.

I think most cops write that way because they don't know how to explain what they did - they understand they were allowed to use of force, but they cannot articulate their actions. This style of report writing has been passed down from other officers who also did not know how to articulate what they did.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:59 AM   #21
d2l
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Kit,

Really doesn't matter as far as use of force's go. They are public record. I suppose I am venting quite a bit, it's just that I want people to understand that in this day and age, they have to be careful in how a violent individual is to be dealt with. You are the good guy, but when **** hits the fan, it is almost like you are crucified for doing your job. Which is protecting yourself and others. I try to be professional in all of my dealings with prisoners. However, I am very well aware that I do not deal WITH professionals. This topic opened up the flood gates for me. I apologize for the rants. Your point is well taken.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:24 PM   #22
KIT
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

I am sure you are, and I feel for you, it sounds like you work in a very difficult environment from both sides of the coin - but stuff gets used from surprising sources to pain even people who act professionally as thugs. Best not to give them any ammunition.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:10 PM   #23
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Quote:
Anthony Stebbins wrote: View Post
After all, my buddy was talking to the feds about violating some P.O.S. civil rights over a few punches, even though he was the one stabbed. Imagine if it was some form of a Shihonage or arm bar that was used and something was broken?
I think Aikido techniques are imminently defendable in court. After all, it is the "gentle art of self defense", right? If I'm on the stand, I'll be insisting I train in Aikido to have the least chance of injuring my fellow human beings, even the ones trying to victimize me.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:17 PM   #24
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

BTW, did you guys read this article?

Cops becoming some of the world's toughest fighters.

No I was NOT reading Fox news- The article was on msn.com's homepage!
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:32 PM   #25
Peter Ralls
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Re: Aikido Training for Policemen

Anthony

What Kit is getting at is that very word you write here is public record and is going to be brought out in court, either for a federal civil rights complaint or a civil suit. We all get frustrated by the fact that modern law enforcement administrations very frequently tend to be terrified of negative press reports and lawsuits, and therefor often do not support line staff in even clearly justified use of force situations.

But having said that, venting on the internet and not carefully considering the impact your words might have when being spun by an attorney in court might cause you considerable regret later on down the road. Take care of yourself.
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