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Old 04-09-2002, 02:35 PM   #101
ronmar
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Hi,

I think that this aikido vs boxing debate highlights one of the main problems with aikido and the martial arts in general; too much thinking and not enough doing.
I boxed for a year in university and even at this very low level found that I learned fast because I had to. There is little room for theorising about what will and will not work in the boxing ring (you don't see a lot of karate reverse punches or blocks in boxing).
I feel people might be kidding themselves when they talk in terms of "performing move X while stepping with technique Y as the boxer throws a punch" etc. This is a bit arrogant as it assumes the boxer is unadaptable, slow and predictable, as well as having inferior technique (ie its not an eastern martial art and so is crude and can be defeated by applying more advanced principles).
Most boxers I have met are the very opposite of this stereotype as a direct result of their training with a live opponent, I feel.
Boxers have fast reflexes, they know how an opponent will react under pressure, and they are very good at ending a fight fast.
Perhaps it would be good for people to try a little boxing so as to get the feel of being on the receiving end of a real attack and not one thrown by a friend in the dojo.
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:55 PM   #102
Steve Pilling
Dojo: Aikido Iaido Club
Location: Overseas
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Re: defending against a boxer

this very old thread was very interesting.

basically we seemed to be get to the consensus that aikido is not very effective against boxing.

whats the solution though? just accept that aikido is not perfect and avoid getting into scraps with boxers?

learn some boxing?

Personally after a year of aikido (and studying hard with a great teacher) I still feel like a beginner and if anyone (even a non boxer) attacked me I would defend myself with the Muay Thai I learnt 20 years ago and hope that I could slip in some aikido moves.
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Old 11-19-2011, 05:09 PM   #103
Steve Pilling
Dojo: Aikido Iaido Club
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Re: defending against a boxer

It occurred to me that maybe we just expect too much from aikido- we want to be invulnerable in a few months against all martial arts and all opponents armed and unarmed while still keeping the moral high ground, having fun and also by the way learning to relax while getting a work out without unduly damaging our aging bodies.
Its a tough brief but I would say aikido does quite well all things considered.

Last edited by Steve Pilling : 11-19-2011 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:14 PM   #104
Autrelle Holland
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Re: defending against a boxer

Get Ron Balicki's "Kali and Silat Entries and Takedowns."
As must for any Aikidoka who wants to see the Kali perspective.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:17 PM   #105
Autrelle Holland
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Steve Pilling wrote: View Post
this very old thread was very interesting.

basically we seemed to be get to the consensus that aikido is not very effective against boxing.

whats the solution though? just accept that aikido is not perfect and avoid getting into scraps with boxers?

learn some boxing?

Personally after a year of aikido (and studying hard with a great teacher) I still feel like a beginner and if anyone (even a non boxer) attacked me I would defend myself with the Muay Thai I learnt 20 years ago and hope that I could slip in some aikido moves.
Not my experience. There are definitely trainable techniques that are perfectly acceptable aikido techniques for use with boxing and kickboxing.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:58 PM   #106
Migas
Location: Lisbon
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Steve Pilling wrote: View Post
this very old thread was very interesting.

basically we seemed to be get to the consensus that aikido is not very effective against boxing.

whats the solution though? just accept that aikido is not perfect and avoid getting into scraps with boxers?

learn some boxing?

Personally after a year of aikido (and studying hard with a great teacher) I still feel like a beginner and if anyone (even a non boxer) attacked me I would defend myself with the Muay Thai I learnt 20 years ago and hope that I could slip in some aikido moves.
I practice since I was 8 (I'm 21 right now) and I steel feel like a beginner. and that's what I like.
To feel that there's always so much to learn and to improve.
I once practiced with a boxer and I did manage to defend myself from every punch, although I didn't applied any Aikido technique.
But Aikido's practice made me capable of protecting myself, and that's the most important
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:42 AM   #107
SeiserL
 
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Re: defending against a boxer

I am an old boxer.

If you want to learn to defend against a boxer, train with one.

I remember a seminar applying proactive ikkyo against a jab. No problem.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-20-2011, 02:22 PM   #108
Rob Watson
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Autrelle Holland wrote: View Post
Get Ron Balicki's "Kali and Silat Entries and Takedowns."
As must for any Aikidoka who wants to see the Kali perspective.
Alas, out of stock ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:46 PM   #109
matty_mojo911
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Re: defending against a boxer

Like all things it depends on the level of the boxer, if we are talking about a good boxer - well balanced, doesn't over comit punches, combinations, fast etc...good luck using Aikido on any person like that. You may be able to, but the odds are against you.

Here is something you might like to think about - single leg takedowns, or double leg takedowns. That is - cover and dart in (or as we say "shoot in") take the legs and take the person to the ground. From a BJJ perspective.

To engage with a well trained boxer in "stand up" is very, very risky - and as for applying a 'proactive" Ikyo - well you may be able to, but again it is a huge risk to do this.

Yes - you can evade punches to a certain degree, but if you're always evading and they are always closing with you and swinging - you're going to wear one.

Last bit of advice - if you get into a scrap ALWAYS expect to be hit, seen some classics over the years where some one gets tagged then they stop and you can see their brain going "you hit me!!" ALWAYS expect to get hit, in most scraps you will (particualrly if you are taking on a boxer), so expect it and shrug it off (if you can).
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:43 PM   #110
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
The next key, is to capture the elbow! Too many people I have trained with, practice to catch a punch or strike. Forget all that! Blend and entry take care of the strike for the most part. Make contact at the elbow, and you can quickly control center, and then adjust to the wrist or hand, after you have affected his center. Try for the wrist or hand before, and you end up in a fight over that wrist or hand. Affect uke's center first, and you have given yourself options, even beyond the techniques of Aikido. While uke is adjusting his center to regain control, you apply your technique to the appropriate wrist or hand.
A nice excerpt from a great post in this thread.

Aside from obvious issues like "How the Hell do you know he's a boxer?", boxers do not train to disengage/counter/reverse aikido joint locks/pins/throws. There are pros and cons on both sides.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:29 AM   #111
Michael Neal
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Re: defending against a boxer

There are MMA gyms these days just about everywhere, very easy to test if your aikido technique will work or not. If you could pull some moves off even occasionally it would do you well for self defense situations. I am very mediocre when it comes to Judo and Jiu Jitsu but against the vast majority of would be attackers out there I would have a good advantage. You really have to mix it up some and do some sparring, Ueshiba developed his skill not just by training but by taking challengers on a regular basis.
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Old 11-23-2011, 02:17 AM   #112
Aikironin21
Dojo: Aikido of Solano
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Re: defending against a boxer

Thank you for the nod Mr.Byers!

Mr.Seiser is correct. If you want to learn to use Aikido against a striker of any kind, train with strikers. A wrestler, train with wrestlers! If you want to learn to fight with Aikido, you need more experience beyond the traditional stylized attacks dojo training gives you. This means you will have to leave your comfort zone, and take a few lumps in the name of knowledge! That's where I am taking my training right now. I have returned to Kaj, and am starting a study group with MMAers and Wrestlers as soon as I can get my shop matted.
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:40 AM   #113
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
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Re: defending against a boxer

This actually is an interesting topic.

It's much deeper than, "Oh. Can I get a kote gaeshi off of a boxer's jab?"

I will add, do not forget that shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, and tsuki, amongst other atemi are all legitimate aikido techniques. Combine the skills you learned as uke and nage! You must recognize the nature of the engagement that you are entering and respond in an appropriate manner.

Be creative.

Remember your principles: relax, be calm, centered, grounded, and move as one piece.

Watch your ma ai, and seek ki musubi and awase.

Purpose matters, form does not. Remain open as to the form and strategy with which your desired outcome may be realized.

And then, like Michael Neal said above, get out there and train it.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:56 AM   #114
SteliosPapadakis
Dojo: aikido-dojo-nippos
Location: Crete
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Greece
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Re: defending against a boxer

I enjoy suwari waza, love it!
Once i trained (just for experience points) with a kick-boxer,and a Greek-Roman wrestler while at a gym i used to attend for weight training sessions.
Maae was of paramount importance and at times the only way i could effectively deal with them guys was in suwari mode. Esp the wrestler who was specialised in locks and the sort while working at very low posture.
I also found that whenever a commited blow engaging all the torso was directed to me, i could somehow neutralise the whole arm by striking back at the elbow joint; this would leave the attacking arm at least numb (strong nerve pain) while i could work on something else.
But, truth is that, a commited trained boxer, strong and closed shut as a chestnut, is indeed a difficult opponent. At the same time, such a person might choose not to fight for the same reasons we choose not to fight too.
(hopefully)
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:37 PM   #115
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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Re: defending against a boxer

The notion of how to defend against a boxer in this discussion, with the exception of what Daniel said, is to engage with the fight. Why fight? Aikido is about refusing to fight. This can take many forms. Running away is honorable. If you can't run away then you should still avoid getting drawn into the boxers game. There are many things that could happen. In general, obviously, stay way from the flurry of punches that could come. Either keep your distance, move in to smother the hands, or better yet move behind the attacker. Where the neck goes his body will follow.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:54 PM   #116
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
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Re: defending against a boxer

Agreed.

I hesitate to post this because it it wasn't created to illustrate this point, but I've always thought this video clip was a good illustration of the point. People seem to think that an aikidoka facing a boxer has to play the boxer's game--has to stand in a very close ma-ai, as though they were in a ring and compete for points. Here, you see that every time the attacker closes up the space for another punch, nage opens it again, requiring the attacker to move in and over-extend to get at nage until there's an opportunity for a throw.
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Old 12-03-2011, 05:19 PM   #117
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
People seem to think that an aikidoka facing a boxer has to play the boxer's game--has to stand in a very close ma-ai, as though they were in a ring and compete for points. Here, you see that every time the attacker closes up the space for another punch, nage opens it again, requiring the attacker to move in and over-extend to get at nage until there's an opportunity for a throw.
The problem is that sooner or later you will encounter a corner/wall/physical obstacle and the simple fact that boxers also train how to manage space and attack without over-extending.

Strong irimi seems like a more reasonable choice.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:06 PM   #118
kewms
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
People seem to think that an aikidoka facing a boxer has to play the boxer's game--has to stand in a very close ma-ai, as though they were in a ring and compete for points. Here, you see that every time the attacker closes up the space for another punch, nage opens it again, requiring the attacker to move in and over-extend to get at nage until there's an opportunity for a throw.
But how do you deal with the log bridge over the chasm?

I agree that playing the boxer's game is a losing strategy, but retreating doesn't work either. I'll bet the boxer's chances of backing the aikidoka into something unpleasant are at least as good as the aikidoka's chances of getting the boxer to overextend.

On the other hand, how does a Western-style boxer deal with a snap kick to the knee? Every art has blind spots.

Katherine
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:20 PM   #119
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
The problem is that sooner or later you will encounter a corner/wall/physical obstacle and the simple fact that boxers also train how to manage space and attack without over-extending.

Strong irimi seems like a more reasonable choice.
I tend to favor irimi and attack the throat. But that's me. A variety of responses are possible. But the desire to fight I think is a real problem and the ability to let that go is the greatest asset in Aikido.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:53 PM   #120
hughrbeyer
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Re: defending against a boxer

Yes, I can see irimi working, and I can see opening up the distance working. What's not going to work is standing there like a boxer and playing their game badly.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:45 PM   #121
ryback
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Re: defending against a boxer

In my opinion there's no much point trying a comparison between martial arts (let alone between a martial art and a fighting sport) but any attack or fighting situation is unique.So the way i see it, you can't tell what would work and what wouldn't.Try to make the attacker overextend by rearranging ma-ai could work,and fast blocking his panches while entering for a, let's say, irimi nage sounds also like a good idea, it depends. But i believe that what is important, that applies to everything is to have a clear mind,empty of any pre-determined ideas of what one should do and act according to the attack to the best of his abilities, if he cannot avoid the fight. Setting up a fight with a boxer in a "sterilized" environment is not what aikido is about and the results will mean nothing.In a real fight one can use his surroundings to his advantage as obstacles for his attacker if possible and you never trully choose where and who to fight in a real situation...
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:48 PM   #122
Autrelle Holland
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Alas, out of stock ...
Here is a video from my Kali instructor.

He outlines a basic set of curriculum from the double dagger combatives in Kali. I use the word "combatives" because this is what he taught in the military. These are the same entries that are used in the empty hand system applications for Silat and Kali, especially when they are working the takedowns and throws. This, in itself, is a fairly complete solution to addressing boxing with Aikido techniques. As shown, the techniques can work double dagger, single dagger, empty hand, or with improvised weapons. There are any number of techniques that can be applied after the entry.
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:56 PM   #123
Autrelle Holland
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote: View Post
Everytime I read something like this I start to wonder about something:

Are you people really thinking about one-on-one fair fights?

If so, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!
Well said!
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #124
Dan Richards
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Re: defending against a boxer

The best defense against a boxer is to find out what kind of beer or drink they like.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:39 PM   #125
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
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Re: defending against a boxer

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
The best defense against a boxer is to find out what kind of beer or drink they like.
Better to slip him a Mickey,
'cause your eyes can't hit
What your eyes can't see,
He'll float like a butterfly
And sting like a bee

http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=m...ofi_QltI&gl=US

Chris
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