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Old 02-06-2002, 08:08 PM   #76
Abasan
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What's all this theoretical discussion all about anyway? I don't really think you can discuss this - aikido vs boxer, boxer vs wrestler, JKD vs the world, etc - topics and hope to get a conclusive answer. And whats the point? So that the next time someone asks you can tell them that aikido beat them all? (at least the forum in aikiweb said so...). Maybe you want to have it certified somewhere so that the next time a boxer bouncer comes to knock your lights off, you can scare him away by saying that aikido ppl can always win against boxers. Btw, we know how to defend against your swift punches through our regular interface at aikiweb.

Who is the ideal representative for aikido? And what's real aikido anyway?

Who's the ideal representative for those other arts that you want to compare with?

At the end of it all, you either keep go against that person yourself, or you learn to go with yourself. So get on the mat already!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-06-2002, 08:41 PM   #77
Brian Crowley
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thalib:
Here, whenever there is a new dojo or any new martial arts training place, there will bound be some people that come in, not to try the art, but to test the art (it's an eastern thing probably). So it is very important to prove one's ability to take responsibility of what one teaches. If not, just pack up the bags, lock the door, and leave.
I'd love to hear more on this. Where are you from ? What happens to the winner/loser in these matches ? Obviously some schools will be more effective than others - how do the others stay open ? How do the Tai Chi & other 'softer' arts make out ?

Bernie -
I see you are from NJ. Do you ever make it into NYC ? If so please consider visiting Al Ridenhour's Ki Chuan Do school there - you can pay by the class - no committment needed. I know several people who practise Aikido and visit Ki Chuan Do classes from time to time for a different perspective.

Abasan -
You have a point, of course. With almost any hobby it is difficult to explain fully why we do what we do. I imagine some people would ask why train in these obscure arts that we never use. Or, why collect a bunch of cards with baseball players on them - why not go out and play baseball ? Sure there are various answers to all of these questions, but ultimately I think it is because on some level we feel the need to explore what we enjoy on different levels.

We all go through various stages/phases in our training. We ask questions about effectiveness, who is best, what are the benefits, what is the point, hard vs soft, what if someone does xyz ? Don't judge us too quickly - you may have been there at one point or you may be there in the future.

Brian
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Old 02-07-2002, 03:58 AM   #78
unsound000
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I think one of the points that Thalib is making is that we shouldn't let our anger and frustration get the best of us. I don't think Thalib was arguing that we should "ignore the conflict". You asked, "How can we practice conflict resolution if there is no conflict?"
Well, we understand that there is a conflict but do we have to get angry about it? Do we have to want to defeat that person and show him who's boss? I would say that we are more likely to lose the fight like this. I don't need to feel any of that conflict inside of me to do the art. Ego, pride, and anger are not intent. We use intent to control them. And what is wrong with only taking from the dojo "the philosophy of peace and love?". If that was all anybody got from practicing, then would it be such a horrible thing?
This article is about aikido's combat effectiveness and some other things discussed. Good points Jim.

http://www.aikiweb.com/general/combat.html





Quote:
Originally posted by jimvance
For the sake of the original question on the forum, this question is irrelevant.

Look up your definition of competition. I call this a fight.

Tell that to the Tibetans, or the Holocaust survivors. Ignoring the conflict does not always make it go away.

This reminds me of karate competitions, where all these karate people train in all these kata and correct form, and then when they get to face off, everything they learned gets thrown out the window and they wind up thrashing around like a pair of drunken monkeys. What are you going to take from the dojo in the real world, besides the philosophy of peace and love?

I don't remember talking about any techniques. As a matter of fact, most of what has been said has been in regard to proper distance and closing distance.

I prefer to practice with people who agree to take care of me, even in dangerous situations, and who help me grow, even when it's uncomfortable.

This is what I was talking about, and is just plain foolish.If you don't practice with the right intent, your ability will reflect that, regardless of whether it is in the dojo or at your job. How can we practice conflict resolution if there is no conflict?

Jim Vance
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Old 02-07-2002, 08:24 AM   #79
jimvance
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Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000
Well, we understand that there is a conflict but do we have to get angry about it? Do we have to want to defeat that person and show him who's boss? I would say that we are more likely to lose the fight like this. I don't need to feel any of that conflict inside of me to do the art. Ego, pride, and anger are not intent. We use intent to control them. And what is wrong with only taking from the dojo "the philosophy of peace and love?". If that was all anybody got from practicing, then would it be such a horrible thing?
Gosh, everyone must think I was foaming at the mouth when I posted those points. I like to play devil's advocate, and I am very passionate about aikido and my training. But I don't ever think I said you had to get mad or had to kill the other guy. You do have to control the conflict in order to resolve it, and like you said, if I cannot control my own emotions, how can I successfully resolve the conflict? It is very easy to talk philosophy and show a favorable face to the world. Training to resolve conflict within oneself (which is very real) and within the dojo is the only way to really internalize the "philosophy of peace and love". And to think I have done it yet is just plain foolish.

Jim Vance
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Old 02-07-2002, 11:01 AM   #80
Edward
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You know, guys, there a lot of different kinds of boxers out there, as there are different kinds of Aikidoka. There are good boxers and bad boxers, big and small ones, strong and weak, tall and short...etc. That's why they play by weight categories.

Give me any time an average boxer, average strength, 20 kgs less than me and I guarantee I'll kick his butt. Give me a ballet dancer about 100+ kgs. of weight (if such a thing exists ) and I assure you I will have my butt kicked in no time.

In my dojo there is an Aikidoka about 135 kgs who is an ex Greco-Roman wrestler, another 100 kgs. who is an ex french foreign legion officer. I don't think you wanna mess with such guys.

I hope my message is clear

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 02-07-2002, 12:05 PM   #81
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Very clear Edward - of course all things being equal .........

As an aside there are people a foot and a half shorter than me and the same weight that scare the living daylights out of me.

One of the things I have found really annoying are the people who say I do this art or I train with this person and assume that somehow their Aikido or whatever is better than anyone who does not. Nothing wrong with a bit of pride in what you do but sheesh. As you pointed out that generalization tends to fall apart very quickly. I have run into boxers that I know I could take just as I know boxers (Tyson for instance) that might be able to take me. At this point I begin to talk about the Do and conflict resolution.

It's not the art but the artist.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-08-2002, 03:44 AM   #82
unsound000
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No offense Jim but someone reading your reply to Thalib could think that you implied that he was foolish and that he had little martial art ability. I don't think you meant that. I just think that you're passionate about doing aikido with intent and realism. No worries..I used to like to play devil's advocate but I found through rough experience that girlfriends hate it. i.e. Well, let's consider the possibility that you do look fat...<WACK>

Quote:
Originally posted by jimvance
Gosh, everyone must think I was foaming at the mouth when I posted those points. I like to play devil's advocate, and I am very passionate about aikido and my training. But I don't ever think I said you had to get mad or had to kill the other guy. You do have to control the conflict in order to resolve it, and like you said, if I cannot control my own emotions, how can I successfully resolve the conflict? It is very easy to talk philosophy and show a favorable face to the world. Training to resolve conflict within oneself (which is very real) and within the dojo is the only way to really internalize the "philosophy of peace and love". And to think I have done it yet is just plain foolish.

Jim Vance
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Old 02-09-2002, 05:49 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Crowley
I'd love to hear more on this. Where are you from ? What happens to the winner/loser in these matches ? Obviously some schools will be more effective than others - how do the others stay open ? How do the Tai Chi & other 'softer' arts make out ?
I'm from Indonesia.

As for the loser, they get humiliated, basically speaking. Since the challenger is looking to discredit the school, there is no need to say, "If you leave, close your dojo, and never teach martial arts again."

Usually if the challenger loses, he sometimes joins the dojo (it's an alpha-male thing). If not, the challenger will one day come again bringing the challenger's senpai/sensei so does say.

If the challenger wins, usually rumors will start spreading on how weak the style/dojo is. People would be reluctant to train there anymore. That's also one reason why there are a lot of personal dojo here, that is kept secret from the outside world... until they go commercial that is...

My sensei got a lot of challengers. Especially when Aikido was offered to be a part of PasPamPres (Pasukan Pengaman Presiden - Presidents Security Forces). These soldier boys are very skeptical of Aikido, and they will not accept it until they are defeated by Aikido. Just to say that, Aikido is part of PasPamPres training now.


P.S. to Vance-san:

It is understandable, I do that too sometimes, to test people's reaction, putting myself in another person's perspective. That's why I responded not with an attack, but with self reflection. Because, in a way I do believe that you were not "foaming at the mouth".

I take even the most hurtful response as a self reflection (in a different way of course). Because I know I have my share of giving out unnecessary and maybe hurtful responses. There is always a lesson to be learned.
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Old 02-12-2002, 10:30 PM   #84
Abasan
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Thalib,

Its kinda outworldly that you have those challenges in this day of age. Don't you videotape them? It would probably be very realistic don't you think what with the challengers set on beating the crap out of your sensei. I would have like to see those matches... I bet they use hooks even! Could answer some questions here in aikiweb anyway.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-13-2002, 01:37 AM   #85
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Unhappy Not down here...

It's not outworldly here in Indonesia. In martial arts, one have to prove oneself before one could start spreading the art. Indonesians are very picky. The world of martial arts here basically have very low tolerance.

Videotapes? It's not like these challenges were planned. Besides, it happened back when Hakim Sensei was still a shodan and back when he was still teaching the military. When I was present, we have occasional challengers, but most of them were grapplers. He also coached some people who accepted challenges.

But I have learned that it is not about the art, it is about the person, the martial artist him/her-self. If I wasn't under Hakim-sensei when I started, I would probably have left a long time ago. I've seen and now felt the existing yudansha here in Indonesia. Some I really respect, some I really don't know what to say except to have pity on them. I know I'm actually disrespecting some of the yudansha here in Indonesia, but I do wish that they will act their grade. We have white-belts that act wiser and have better understanding of techniques than some of the yudansha.

Abas-san, it's not like everytime they have a video camera handy. It's not like UFC or any NHB matches that were telecasted. The proof is that Aikido survived and has expanded here in Indonesia, that is quite a feat. It has adapted to the new environment. Instead of knife and swords, we have to deal with machette and sickle. Instead of dealing with the threat of firerarms, we have to deal with hoodlums that have mystically armored themselves against weapons.

Indonesia's culture has changed very little from the ancient times. The difference is we now have more advanced technology, but still low in education and social maturity. Also, in majority, we still have tribal mentality. It's a whole different ballgame down here. Sometimes it makes me feel depressed thinking about it, but I hope someday I will be able to change all that for the better.

What am I rambling about... well... that's a very small part of my cultural background. I guees now you all know why my postings are kind of weird at times... or maybe all the time.

Hakim Sensei wouldn't still be in Aikido if it hasn't been proven. I wouldn't have stayed in Aikido if it wasn't proven. I don't want to live a lie anymore.
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Old 02-13-2002, 03:09 AM   #86
ranZ
 
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Abasan, don't challenges happen too in Malaysia? With all the silat going on, you know.

--------
Tell that to the Tibetans..

mm.. this is most interesting. The Tibetans know exactly what they're doing. A nonviolent act. They prevent further bloodshed. Dalai Lama once ask a monk who has been prisoned for years by the Chinese - what he was afraid most. The monk answered "I fear of loosing compassion to the Chinese."

They are not ignoring a conflict, just viewing it from a diffrent standpoint. (*Hey the Dalai Lama is touring the world to free Tibet!*) So if you do tell that to the Tibetans, it'll only reaffirm their beliefs.
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Old 02-13-2002, 06:22 PM   #87
jk
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Challenges?

Hi Thalib,

I'm also keen on reading some accounts of the challenges that've happened in Indonesia...does this sort of thing happen often? It sure doesn't seem to here in Bandung. We've only gotten visitors who sit and watch class being conducted. We smile at them, they smile back. Members of the military come in, and they've always been polite and friendly...

Perhaps this has something to do with our dojo-cho being pretty high up there in the TKD heirarchy, but I haven't seen or heard of challenges happening while our dojo-cho is teaching TKD either...

Maybe the challenges are very much tied up with trying to increase reputations, and hence potential monetary gain...but there are MUCH easier ways of making money in Indonesia...

I guess we're lucky that we seem to be ignored by challengers, then...

Regards,
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Old 02-14-2002, 10:48 AM   #88
Thalib
 
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Smile Maturity

Hi Kuo-san...

I've heard places such as Bandung and Yogyakarta (I think even Medan) have quite mature mentality, "martial artist"-ly speaking. Especially in Yogyakarta, where they have a really quite a peaceful, helpful, and mature martial arts community (the locals say that it is caused by the high support of Sultan Hamengkubuwono).

In Jakarta, the challenges are not for so that people would rather come to their training places (monetarily speaking). It's saying my art is better than yours, or I'm better and stronger than you, kind of thing. You are probably familiar with the term "mentalitas preman" or maybe in English it translates to "hoodlum mentality", it is exactly that.

Some, I repeat, some of the martial artists here in Jakarta are basically "preman"s.
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Old 02-15-2002, 03:29 AM   #89
jk
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Re: Maturity

Ah yes, preman...no doubt there are hoodlums to be found almost anywhere on earth, and in almost any vocation...

Still, I have to question why these martial arts hoodlum challenges/turf battles would mostly be localized in Jakarta, but then it'll be hard to get clear, verifiable data on that...

If you think about it, challenges seem to be a much more civilized method of dispute resolution on the part of hoodlums, compared to readily available options such as drive-by shootings, bombings, and, heaven forbid, lawsuits...

Anyway, I think we're wandering off topic again...sorry 'bout that, folks.

Hope you had an enjoyable Valentine's day, everybody...

Love & Kisses,
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Old 02-24-2002, 08:01 PM   #90
Abasan
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I think the east have always been associated with a lot of the occult and the mystical. As for challenges, mayhaps it has been the norm for the martial arts world a long time ago. In fact, it used to be regarded as the privilege of the student to take the masters place as the head of the school by defeating him in combat. That happens not only in old china, but here in Malaysia & Indonesia itself. So much so that masters who do take students from outside their family, keeping certain techniques secret, sometimes to their death bed. But here in Malaysia, I don't think we get that anymore. Its probably illegal.

Here, there are plenty of schools of Silat that has closed down or gone underground because our Government tends not to tolerate occult and mystical stuff. Ever heard of Nasrul Haq (Thalib, Ranz?). Its not even a martial art really, just more of a passive spiritual exercise actually. Even that was banned, because no one can really understand why assailants to its practicioners cannot get close to them. Perhaps anything regarded as non-conformist to the majority will be eyed suspiciously. We after all are a race of men who are wolves to conformity but sheep to credulity.

I wasn't sarcastic about the video tape though Thalib. The short amount of time I spent with your sensei has been enough to conjure my respect for that man so I don't doubt at all his abilities. I don't have a chance to watch what you see happening there from time to time and if the only venue I can do the same is through a videotape, then so be it.

As a side, are you sure Hakim Sensei didn't do any silat before? Given that you are there, a challenge from some of these people can raise hairs, especially from the ones who are into Batin. How can aikido deal with that?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-25-2002, 06:43 PM   #91
jk
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Silat batin and the metaphysical

Hmm...good thread drift. To the best of my understanding, silat batin has to do with the supernatural, such as resisting bullets, poison hands, etc. Very interesting stuff. My opinion on these things doesn't really matter.

To stir the pot even further, my sensei, Atsushi Yamada, has remarked to me that he had received a challenge of some sort during his tenure in Bandung, apparently from a silat group. Somehow, the challenge never materialized, so I suppose it's all speculation, and not very confirmable. You COULD ask him about it. He's in KL, at Aikikai Malaysia...

How can aikido deal with silat batin? Gee, don't know...be nice, and eat your vegetables?

No offense intended...I'm also very keen on having more light thrown on this subject, even if it gets away from aikido.

Regards,
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Old 02-27-2002, 10:51 AM   #92
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How did we get here...

I guess, I'm mostly responsible for this... sorry to the other post-readers that were looking for answers to the thread...

Anyway...

Silat batin... Sinlamba (Islam based - similar to Nasrul Haq) is the most famous one in Indonesia. But the practitioners have made it clear, if one approaches without the intention to harm (no evil intentions), it is useless. Basically when you are in Aiki (in the true sense), none of those silat batin works.

You can try it as an exercise in calmness: try to approach one of these guys, first, with the intent to throw them, you would get thrown instead. Then, try to calmly approach them as if approaching a friend not just physically but also mentally and spiritually. The barrier does not work any longer if you are in Aiki.

Maybe we should discuss this in the other post about supernatural feats...

Note: since Indonesia is not an Islamic country (although most are muslims), old spiritual rituals (animism, spiritualism, etc.) are still widely practiced (some are even merged to other religions). It's a believe it or not kind of thing, you won't believe it until it happens to you...
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Old 04-05-2002, 09:25 AM   #93
MARZ
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boxing

I started boxing when I was 14. I am now 26. I have recently began taking Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu with some Judo and Akido. Jiu Jitsu, Judo, and Akido are taught in combination at the dojo that I am at. To make a long story short. I realize that what I am receiving in the Jiu Jitsu/Judo/Akido combined will do these arts the justice that focusing on one the would, but it is giving me a good intro so that I can make a choice as to which area I will focus in once I have acquired enough proficiancy in the Muay Thai which is the dojo's specialty.

As far as boxing, it is apparent that many people in martial arts community do not thoroughly understand boxing if at all. There are a lot of misconceptions. Boxing is an art and is no less sophisticated than any martial. From what I have seen of many martial arts demonstration, there are no better strikers with the fist than boxers. To suggest that Bruce Lee at 147 lbs could even come close to generating the type of power of a heavyweight boxer of 200 + is to demonstrate a total lack of understanding of boxing, body mechanics, and physics. In fact as a fighter, I will tell you honestly that "Bruce's punching technique was not exactly great". I can think of lightweight fighters like Roberto Duran at 135 that could hit harder.
People seem to assume that boxers will follow rules on the streets that they barely follow in the ring. Hopkins, Holyfield, Tyson, DLH, Whitaker, Ray Robinson, and the list goes on all cheated in some capacity in the ring. Why do you think that outside the ring they would not just cut lose. In fact, many African-American boxers particularly from the Brooklyn area, know a martial art(Mike Tyson and Zab Judah) called Jail House Boxing or 52 Blocks. I fully acknowledge boxings limitations and that is why I am interested in Akido, Muay Thai, and other arts, but there is no such thing as a complete art, PERIOD.
In Akido's case, I am still considering if it is the art I want because from what I have seen, it has not evolved to deal with the attacks of boxing. I have not seen one that has other than boxing. Each art deals best with its own attacks. They are all culturaly specific. Boxing also enjoys among other things a broader pool of contributers to its development from Africa, America, and Europe.
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Old 04-05-2002, 10:29 PM   #94
Abasan
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Boxing (in its original form) next to Wrestling is one of the oldest fighting around. Having originated from Egypt i.e. before Greek times as most of us assume, it had the time to evolve into a science an art form that many martial arts borrows from.

I think, most of us though can only relate to boxing that's already popularised. Nothing I think which has the poison of mass consumerism within it, can truly remain true to its original form or intention. Such is the boxing we see today; made for the masses, for viewing pleasure.

I suppose, to understand boxers, we would have to go back say... to 1930's and look at the great boxers of that era. Not limiting ourselves to the pros, but also to the unnamed. (a lot are amateur fighters, who are good, but unable to sustain living of boxing).

After all... who would have thought that Rocky (ie stallone) was not a boxer, or rambo or a cop or a rock climber, after watching his numerous blockbusters. Little did we realise, our patriotic and heroic superstar, spent his time as a chaperone in a girls boarding school in Switzerland during the war.

So, perhaps, we should open our minds and not limit boxing to just 'in the ring, slugging it out'. Maai, tricks, luring, trapping, avoiding, balance breaking, timing, muscle targetting, pacing, blocks, feint, parries, counter attacks and all that... if its not a superb martial art, I wonder what is.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-06-2002, 06:17 AM   #95
Bruce Baker
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Boxer verses Aikido

Let's give in to the fact that a Boxer who maintains a no contact intermediate distance will be able to evade most Aikido entrys to take away their power/balance ...

With that said, maybe many of you should add simulated strikes and kicks to your Aikido practice to view where you should be in your techniques in practice, and then you will see why manipulate/move our partners the way we do?

Aikido, as in jujitsu or boxing, is not a static form of practice. No matter what the weapon, what ever the attack, we find the weakness or harmony of movement to use that force against itself. If that force is punching, sometimes trapping one of the boxers arms, simple misdirection by raising a hand ...

Of course, our goal of using Aikido is not to pummel with malicious intent? So, by the tenents of Aikido, once we adopt this intent we have lost? Isn't that what we are doing by even thinking one martial art is better than another?

I think there are many pieces to learning MA. Some of them are in learning to box, some are in learning Aikido.

Some interesting ideas in this thread.
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Old 04-06-2002, 07:38 PM   #96
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Re: boxing

Quote:
Originally posted by MARZ
In Akido's case, I am still considering if it is the art I want because from what I have seen, it has not evolved to deal with the attacks of boxing. I have not seen one that has other than boxing. Each art deals best with its own attacks. They are all culturaly specific. Boxing also enjoys among other things a broader pool of contributers to its development from Africa, America, and Europe.
Hi Mike!

I was wondering if you could be more specific in regards to "has not evolved". I'm assuming you had specific things in mind based on what you've seen.

Last edited by Erik : 04-06-2002 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 04-08-2002, 09:00 AM   #97
MARZ
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
Boxing (in its original form) next to Wrestling is one of the oldest fighting around. Having originated from Egypt i.e. before Greek times as most of us assume, it had the time to evolve into a science an art form that many martial arts borrows from.

I think, most of us though can only relate to boxing that's already popularised. Nothing I think which has the poison of mass consumerism within it, can truly remain true to its original form or intention. Such is the boxing we see today; made for the masses, for viewing pleasure.

I suppose, to understand boxers, we would have to go back say... to 1930's and look at the great boxers of that era. Not limiting ourselves to the pros, but also to the unnamed. (a lot are amateur fighters, who are good, but unable to sustain living of boxing).

After all... who would have thought that Rocky (ie stallone) was not a boxer, or rambo or a cop or a rock climber, after watching his numerous blockbusters. Little did we realise, our patriotic and heroic superstar, spent his time as a chaperone in a girls boarding school in Switzerland during the war.

So, perhaps, we should open our minds and not limit boxing to just 'in the ring, slugging it out'. Maai, tricks, luring, trapping, avoiding, balance breaking, timing, muscle targetting, pacing, blocks, feint, parries, counter attacks and all that... if its not a superb martial art, I wonder what is.

Not to try and make this a boxing forum, but boxing has evolved considerably since it inception. Boxing during the early part of the 20th century not meniton anytime before was very primitive compared to what it is now. I do not think that the use of popuralized when refering to boxing is a acurate description. Boxing has evolved for that very reason (so many have tried it and contributed to it). Give me a art that has a larger more diverse pool of contributers than something with a limited pool any day. Boxing evolved in real life fighting situations. That is not to say that Akido did not, but Akido is not practiced in that way now to the degree that boxing is. As far as Rocky, it and many other theatrical attempts at boxing from a technical standpoint were insulting. The technique of every boxing movie I have ever seen has been terrible although Will Smith did a fairly decent job. Boxing techniques are no less complex than any other arts. It is just that those that have not mastered the art are just as visible if not more visible to the public than those that have mastered it.
I considering either Akido or Wing Chung because I think they would compliment my boxing skills, but the verdict is still out.
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Old 04-08-2002, 11:54 AM   #98
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
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Hello

To Marz: I'd objectively advise you to take up Aikido... it's even more different from boxing I guess (also my father who used to box and now takes Aikido says some of the concepts and movements are similar) than WingChun and so You would benefit more from it... - as a boxer I think You have sufficient hitting skills...
but thats just my opininon...

About Bernie V's quote:
ma-ai is not everything, you may have no choice but engage.

Well then lets engage: IRIMI. (and end up with a doing a headlock for example)

What I like about Aikido (of course that is no Aikido-only-thing) is that You have multiple choices of movements and all are equally good. (depending on the enviroment of course)

Best wishes
Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
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Old 04-09-2002, 02:33 AM   #99
CraigJamieson
Dojo: Ki Federation of GB
Location: East Kilbride, Scotland
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 10
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Aikido is for relaxation, fun, possibly anger management, but NOT REAL FIGHTING!!!! i know that it is against our philosophy as aikidoka to get into fights, but the subject is constantly raised in the forums, which is good. I have practiced aikido for 3 years, and muay thai for 1 year. If i was in a fight, god forbid, it would be my muay thai training which would help me out. Brutal it may be, but this guy(S) wants to kill you, talking to him hasnt worked, you cant run away (either cos you cant physically or you dont want to-pride) so youd better make sure you kick his ass good, cos if you dont, he'll kick yours.
People often go for this hippie like love your enemies drivel in aikido. Remember though, o sensei was a belligerent, violent drunken old sod for most of his life, yes he was brilliant, but lets practice for the art and forget about all this nonsense. If some guy tries to rape your girlfriend, you dont say "grab my arm please kind sir" you go and apply atemi ie. beat the s**t out of him.

Thank you, peace and goodnight,
craig
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Old 04-09-2002, 08:13 AM   #100
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 219
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Quote:
Originally posted by CraigJamieson
Aikido is for relaxation, fun, possibly anger management, but NOT REAL FIGHTING!!!! i know that it is against our philosophy as aikidoka to get into fights, but the subject is constantly raised in the forums, which is good. I have practiced aikido for 3 years, and muay thai for 1 year. If i was in a fight, god forbid, it would be my muay thai training which would help me out. Brutal it may be, but this guy(S) wants to kill you, talking to him hasnt worked, you cant run away (either cos you cant physically or you dont want to-pride) so youd better make sure you kick his ass good, cos if you dont, he'll kick yours.
People often go for this hippie like love your enemies drivel in aikido. Remember though, o sensei was a belligerent, violent drunken old sod for most of his life, yes he was brilliant, but lets practice for the art and forget about all this nonsense. If some guy tries to rape your girlfriend, you dont say "grab my arm please kind sir" you go and apply atemi ie. beat the s**t out of him.

Thank you, peace and goodnight,
craig
At my level of proficiency (or should I say deficiency) in aikido I would have to agree with you. I think most people in this forum can agree that aikido is not the best choice in a martial art if what you want is immediate self-defense applications (Krav-Maga, Muay Thai being better choices).

But I think you are wrong when you say Aikido is not for real fighting. Aikido can be used in a real life situation; it just takes a lot longer to learn. You might get much quicker results in the area of self-defense studying Krav-Maga or kickboxing, but you will get little else.

What most people fail to see is that Aikido is holistic; it is a science, an art, a fighting system, a philosophy, a spiritual vehicle, and more. Being all these things allows Aikido to create well-rounded individuals, not just fighters. But by dividing its energy in this way, Aikido cannot be solely dedicated to self-defense applications.

So what if it takes me 10-15 years in order for my Aikido to be physically viable in a self-defense situation. Along the way I am becoming calmer, less confrontational and more aware. For someone who felt nothing but apathy towards people all his life, Aikido has slowly open my heart, no matter how much I try to fight the hippie bunny crap. I am becoming more compassionate, more empathic, and less violent. I don't know when it happened, but it does happen if you train seriously and intensely.

Again right now, if someone tried to rape my girlfriend, it would take all the powers in heaven for me not to kill or seriously maim the individual(s), and I can except the blood on my hands (Survival first, the other guy second). The next day I would be right back in the dojo training that much harder. Hoping for the day when I have the level of control and mastery where I can choose not maim, not to kill. Training for the day when I am not driven to hurt someone by my insecurities, fears or anger.


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