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Old 01-22-2002, 12:48 PM   #51
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik

Same thing in class. Strike, fall, strike, fall, strike, fall, switch, repeat...... Do that a few thousand times and pretty soon you start thinking you are pretty good. Get a little rank added to it and you start getting really good.
I find that just fooling around with friends can
help an individual to find out what they have learned to do reflectively and what is actually working for them.

Also, it's fun and relatively safe.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:56 PM   #52
jimvance
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Crowley The only problem is that if you don't train to fight in close, you are both in an uncomfortable environment.
This can be overcome by training at different ma ai. Ma ai does not mean being outside of attack range; there are different "ma". Most aikido techniques are illustrated at "toi ma" or "far distance". Techniques can still be done at different ma, it just requires fitting just a little differently, or finding techniques that are more appropriate at certain intervals, such as koshi waza, etc.
Quote:
...Therefore in a hypothetical example, the boxer and Aikidoka are now standing nearly toe to toe. Now neither is really doing the art he is comfortable with.
Standing toe to toe does not necessarily mean we are clashing. This is one emphasis of sword training in Aikido. If I am off of his "power line" and yet he is on my "power line", I am definitely doing the art I am familiar with. It may not be the same as training in the dojo, but principle is still the same. This may be one reason boxers are so feared (for lack of a better word) by the martial arts community. Once you learn to throw a punch, the job becomes one of maneuvering the opponent onto the power line at the correct time to use that punch. Watch good boxers, they do a lot to throw a punch; we do they move so much?

Jim Vance
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Old 01-22-2002, 04:15 PM   #53
Brian Crowley
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vim Vance
Standing toe to toe does not necessarily mean we are clashing.
I agree completely. I think it really comes down to your earlier point about training in a closer ma ai so that you have comfort and sensitivity at that range. I still maintain that most Aikidoka do not and that it's best to go to those who specialize in that range for some pointers. Just my opinion (and my own personal practise).

Brian
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Old 01-22-2002, 04:41 PM   #54
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Brian,

My sensei are all judo yudansha, and they love the close distance or "chika ma"; as a matter of fact, they prefer it. I am still uncomfortable within chika ma with someone really coming after me, but that's just one more reason to keep showing up at the dojo. Thanks for your earlier posts.

Jim Vance
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Old 01-22-2002, 11:28 PM   #55
Chocolateuke
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Lightbulb

sure your proably gonna get hit but my sensei said one of the reasons people like shioda can throw with almost no touch is becasue the moment one does touch them or get in a good range they react instantly and solidly. but that requires years and years of dedicated and focused practace. focus is one of the things that a lot of people miss in their training ( at least in dojos ive been to including my own untill we started to be more focused , boxers arnt really the best people to test your aikido to the max I would much rather go against a street fighter or a dirty fighter becasue when they see an opening they use it and they also "cheat" ( there are no rules to fighting) and makes you use your imagination much more what if the guy tried to kick you while faking a punch something a boxer would never do. there are opionons on this and that is good it means everybodys thinking!

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 01-23-2002, 11:41 AM   #56
Bernie V
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Thumbs down

More good posts! something I am going to try next time I spar is to try stay in a reverse stance. it seems to me (in theory)
that this way his power side is a bit farther
and he will have to telegraph his movement if he is going to strike from that side. he will
have to step in more with the power side to get a good punch. if his stance is more squared off this may not work. any thoughts?

BernieV
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Old 01-23-2002, 04:28 PM   #57
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bernie V
...to try... (in theory)...
he will
have to.... if his stance... may not... any thoughts?
Just do it.
And get back to us.
Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2002, 05:11 PM   #58
David H
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Hello all, I've come to this a little late but it's interesting, as I'm sure many aikido practitioners ask questions along their own path.
I have 14 years under my belt (so to speak) but recently saw some boxers in training and was taken aback by the speed and power of the multiple punches.
A friend who trains with me used to box so he brought his gloves (for safety) and we 'messed about'.
There are many valid comments in this thread, some I understand, some I think missed the point, BUT what I found in our 'messing about' was that you have two options - 1) stay out of range and look for an opportunity or 2) committ totally without any form of hesitancy.
I am sure our few sessions did not take us far but I see either committed frontal irimi or irminage (getting behind) as most effective.
I did think that gedan attack (take the knees out with your whole body) would be so very unexpected.
And yes - many factors such as awareness (why are you there inthe first place); what are the circumstances of the situation etc. are SO relevant but I look at this as purely another question as to what do we (I) know. (know = where am I along the path?)
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Old 01-23-2002, 09:34 PM   #59
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Quote:
Posted by Bernie: More good posts! something I am going to try next time I spar is to try stay in a reverse stance. it seems to me (in theory) that this way his power side is a bit farther ...


I don't quite follow. Do you mean you will have your "power" hand & foot forward instead of the traditional boxing stance ? I don't see how that makes your target areas farther away.

I believe that JKD & some Filipino martial arts use that stance. However my understanding was that they do so to have the stronger, more coordinated, hand closer to the opponent - not to make the targets less available to the opponent.

Brian
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Old 02-02-2002, 03:47 PM   #60
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Most Police officers I know, use a modified form of aikido As thier self defence... Many cops defend themselfs everyday... So as far as "Is it effective"... I think that answers it. About Fighting a boxer... I dont really think its important, if you keep your distance.. they still need to bridge the gap. Also anyone remember Ali, when he got stomped on by that big ol wrestler years ago... Boxers are Good, but not invincible... they train hard...It reminds me of something i read in book about bruce lee... "Dont expect bruce lee results, unless your willing to put in a bruse lee effort"... The guy trained all the time.. ( not 2 or 3 days a week for an hour and a half )... then lastly would be.. why would you be fighting a boxer in the first place?... Isnt one of the principles about harmonizing, or resolving conflict... I belive the best way to resolve conflict is to not put yourself in situations where conflict may arise...for Instance... if you were to go to the atm at 2am.. would you really be suprised to find yourself getting mugged. Or being at a bar, and getting stupid... the list goes on, I mean, really how many times do you find yourself in real fights, If you do then you must be doing something wrong.
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Old 02-02-2002, 06:00 PM   #61
Brian Crowley
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Quote:
Posted by Robert: Most Police officers I know, use a modified form of aikido As thier self defence
They may be taught Aikido-like restraining holds, but I'm not sure I would classify it as "modified Aikido". Many of the techniques are common to various forms of jujitsu/self-defense. Anyway, police have clubs, mace, guns and radios that can get other cops to scene.

Distance has been discussed quite a bit on this thread. I still maintain that you can't count on being able to maintain distance. It is too easily breached and then too difficult to regain.

I agree with your other points though, and in fact I think the attached essay covers the subject in some detail. I don't know much about the techniques that MacYoung teaches, but he makes some great points here:

http://www.diac.com/~dgordon/streetfighting.html

Brian
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Old 02-02-2002, 07:37 PM   #62
Kenshin75
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Sorry about that, I didnt mean for it to sound like I was saying that all Cops are aikidoka running around. Its just that I have a couple friends ( CHP, SDHD ),family, and The man who fueled my love for the art many years ago( even though I havent been able to train ) was a Riverside Sheriff. Plus I am Taking post certified police classes at the moment. and even though.. What they learn may not look as pretty, It seams that some aikidoka fail to realize that what we practice in the dojo is "Idealized".

As Far as distance goes... Your right... Its tough to maintain it...

The question I think the man was posting was more about defending against a boxer while sparring in a controled environment ( assumeing its a friend of his )...
And I would say... It would be tough. In that type of setting its his game... But on the street( yes Ive been in my share of fights in my younger years, not to mention been around some resently, booze at big partys sometimes does that.. )And I have yet to see anyone who is intent on knocking your block off, take the time to bob and weave, jab, jab cross.. type of stuff...

Anyhow,.. I Enjoyed the link to MacYoung though...

respectfully....
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Old 02-03-2002, 12:22 PM   #63
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As one of the guys talking about ma ai I must say it was not as the be all end all answer. Ma ai is one of several basic principles which come togeather and can not stand alone.

Even so ma ai as combative distance means that if bubba does get close then your technique must change to accomodate it. The ma ai of most aikido techniques is different than the ma ai of judo for example.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-03-2002, 01:18 PM   #64
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kenshin75
Sorry about that, I didnt mean for it to sound like I was saying that all Cops are aikidoka running around. Its just that I have a couple friends ( CHP, SDHD ),family, and The man who fueled my love for the art many years ago( even though I havent been able to train ) was a Riverside Sheriff. Plus I am Taking post certified police classes at the moment. and even though.. What they learn may not look as pretty, It seams that some aikidoka fail to realize that what we practice in the dojo is "Idealized".

As Far as distance goes... Your right... Its tough to maintain it...

The question I think the man was posting was more about defending against a boxer while sparring in a controled environment ( assumeing its a friend of his )...
And I would say... It would be tough. In that type of setting its his game... But on the street( yes Ive been in my share of fights in my younger years, not to mention been around some resently, booze at big partys sometimes does that.. )And I have yet to see anyone who is intent on knocking your block off, take the time to bob and weave, jab, jab cross.. type of stuff...

Anyhow,.. I Enjoyed the link to MacYoung though...

respectfully....
We make the same points:

1) Many people don't seem to realize that the dojo practice is idealized.
Because its idealized and because we try to get it just this perfect, that means we'll actually have a better chance of having a working technique in real circumstances.
Experimentation outside the dojo (with friends) and in this respect the beginners (people who just joined) are of great aid.
Outside the dojo, no matter how ugly your iriminage is, and if it ends up with a headlock and you dragging someone and punching them in the ear... it has worked perfectly.

2) Aikido is not about playing games or competition.
In a ring, you both start with your guard up.
In real life, the attacker must first bring his hands that high and close distance without arousing suspicion.
Then there's the whole "fence" thing taught by many reality self-defense instructors, which in its physical manifestation awfully resembles IKKYO-UNDO.
Many real life attacks do in fact look like shomen, yokomen attacks (only faster), due to the andrenaline rush affecting the other person AS WELL, as they lose their fine motor skills and get tunnel vision.

Last edited by shihonage : 02-03-2002 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 02-03-2002, 05:31 PM   #65
Brian Crowley
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aleksey: 1) Many people don't seem to realize that the dojo practice is idealized.
I agree and I think this puts them at a huge psychological disadvantage when they face the non-ideal situation. I have even seen at least one Aikido school compound this potential problem by including a phrase like "Self Defense School" in the name of the school when, in fact, the school really did not have a self-defense emphasis. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with not making self-defense the focus of training - there are many other great reasons to study. But then, maybe one of those other reasons should be part of the name of school in place of "self defense". Just my opinion.

Quote:
Then there's the whole "fence" thing taught by many reality self-defense instructors, which in its physical manifestation awfully resembles IKKYO-UNDO.
I haven't heard the term "fence", but I think I know exactly what you are talking about. In fact, I've had similar thoughts to yours myself. Of course, while the physical manifestations of ikkyo-undo may be similar, they can be a world-away if you are not aware of the applications and modifications that can make a world of difference. The Attack Proof book I mentioned (by John Perkins) has a move that looks somewhat like a modified ikkyo-undo, but the differences in application are immense.

Brian
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Old 02-04-2002, 08:16 PM   #66
Irony
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Also consider that a boxer will almost always seek to close on you to strike, whereas an aikidoka will keep that distance. A boxer may not be used to attacking an opponent who does not seek to close with him.

Chris Pasley
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Old 02-05-2002, 08:22 AM   #67
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Do you watch a lot of boxing matches? At least half the time one of the boxers has to close distance. They do it very well.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Also consider that a boxer will almost always seek to close on you to strike, whereas an aikidoka will keep that distance. A boxer may not be used to attacking an opponent who does not seek to close with him.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-05-2002, 09:48 AM   #68
Irony
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I don't doubt that they do. My point was that a boxer will be pushing forward to win, and is used to an opponent who is seeking to win as well. An aikidoka would more than likely just try to resolve it without aggressively engaging, keeping ma ai and whatnot. That might be a new experience for a boxer. I dunno, just my thoughts.

Chris Pasley
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Old 02-05-2002, 11:58 AM   #69
jimvance
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irony
...would more than likely just try to resolve it without aggressively engaging, keeping ma ai and whatnot...
So how is the conflict resolved? You are assuming that the "boxer" will quit once they can't break the static ma the "aikidoka" has established. Ma ai does not mean keeping everything at fingertip reach, that is just a certain ma, or distance. I can keep really good ma ai in a conflict, it's called running away. What happens when I am caught offguard or I can't run away? When does this "aikidoka" step in and take the center? Limiting veiws of correct engagement weakens ability and creates openings. Engaging, aggressively or otherwise, in my book is called blending or fitting, and that is why aikido is so hard.

Jim Vance
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Old 02-05-2002, 12:41 PM   #70
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The conflict...

First of all, how was the conflict caused?

Did one just go out and challenge a boxer to a fight? If that was the case, then I must say that that person have already failed. Because when the desire to win is involved, then it becomes a competition. It is a completely different frame of mind.

Did one accept the challenge from a boxer to a fight? This case also have grief consequences if the desire is the same as the first case. If one did not accept the challenge to a fight, the conflict is resolved to some point.

Did a boxer just come in and suddenly attack? One will have a different frame of mind. Now it is about defending oneself, survival. In this case, anything goes, no rules. Kicks, choke-holds and knee-to-the-groin can apply, but not need to.

We all can discuss which techniques is best until the sun don't shine anymore and it won't make a difference. Every person is different, every boxer is different, and every aikidoka is different. Study the principles well, and one will know what to do at a given moment.

P.S.: I prefer to practice with grapplers, they do everything: kicks, punches, grabs, tackles, choke-holds, etc.

One mustn't try to win, but one must to end the conflict.
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Old 02-06-2002, 11:52 AM   #71
jimvance
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thalib
First of all, how was the conflict caused?...
For the sake of the original question on the forum, this question is irrelevant.

Quote:
...Because when the desire to win is involved, then it becomes a competition...
Look up your definition of competition. I call this a fight.

Quote:
...If one did not accept the challenge to a fight, the conflict is resolved to some point...
Tell that to the Tibetans, or the Holocaust survivors. Ignoring the conflict does not always make it go away.

Quote:
...Did a boxer just come in and suddenly attack? One will have a different frame of mind. Now it is about defending oneself, survival. In this case, anything goes, no rules. Kicks, choke-holds and knee-to-the-groin can apply, but not need to...
This reminds me of karate competitions, where all these karate people train in all these kata and correct form, and then when they get to face off, everything they learned gets thrown out the window and they wind up thrashing around like a pair of drunken monkeys. What are you going to take from the dojo in the real world, besides the philosophy of peace and love?

Quote:
...We all can discuss which techniques is best until the sun don't shine anymore...
I don't remember talking about any techniques. As a matter of fact, most of what has been said has been in regard to proper distance and closing distance.

Quote:
...I prefer to practice with grapplers, they do everything: kicks, punches, grabs, tackles, choke-holds, etc...
I prefer to practice with people who agree to take care of me, even in dangerous situations, and who help me grow, even when it's uncomfortable.

Quote:
...One mustn't try to win, but one must to end the conflict.
This is what I was talking about, and is just plain foolish.
Quote:
Limiting veiws of correct engagement weakens ability and creates openings...
If you don't practice with the right intent, your ability will reflect that, regardless of whether it is in the dojo or at your job. How can we practice conflict resolution if there is no conflict?

Jim Vance
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Old 02-06-2002, 11:54 AM   #72
Bernie V
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Smile

Hi,
just an update with the boxing. first I want to say I agree with your take Jim. ma-ai
is not everything, you may have no choice but engage.
To what Thalib said, I agree that fighting a
grappler is the best choice. but right now I want to explore one type of style which could very well be used by a grappler. believe me I want to explore kicks,holds, chokes, rushes, etc. But that is for later threads.

I haven't been doing any sparring lately. my boxing instructor has shown me some boxing techniques. I don't want to be a boxer but seeing how a boxer thinks and acts helps in defense. I got some more insight from my sensei because he has had some experience
with fighting people using boxing skills. what he suggests is continually circling to the ukes weak side and seek an oppurtunity to use a technique that way. for instance, if he is leading with his left hand and jabbing with it, you circle to that side so you are facing his shoulder. you use extention by keeping in contact with your hands between his elbow and shoulder. this in a sense traps his arm and he is going to try to circle with you to square off again. getting more behind him is even better because he will have a harder time
pulling that left foot back to square off and will also set you up nicely to do
irimi nage ( from the book Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere it is called kokyu nage). hopefully I will get a chance to try it. until then....

BernieV
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Old 02-06-2002, 01:03 PM   #73
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally posted by jimvance
How can we practice conflict resolution if there is no conflict?
Nothing to add, but that is definitely worth quoting.
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Old 02-06-2002, 03:44 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bernie V
ma-ai is not everything, you may have no choice but engage.
Not intending to beat a dead horse but the whole point of ma ai is that you are in a position to engage to your advantage.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-06-2002, 05:10 PM   #75
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Smile To Jim Vance

I do appreciate your opinion. It is the type of statement that is always an issue n Aikido. A lot of these questions in class.

It is possible what I've said would easily be misinterpreted. I get this a lot when I write. Words like between "challenge" and "engage", between "practice with" and "practice against". I try to choose my words carefully, and may have failed to some point. For example, I try to avoid using first person and second person.

The best way to convey my thoughts could only be possible through these postings since we span great distances. If we could train/practice together, then there will probably be better understandings.

You have chosen your path, and it is yours, I respect that.

Just for reference, in my country, martial arts are still like it is in the old days, where one school often challenges another school. It doesn't have to be other schools, there are even conflicts within the schools themselves. It is sad, but it is a fact.

Here, whenever there is a new dojo or any new martial arts training place, there will bound be some people that come in, not to try the art, but to test the art (it's an eastern thing probably). So it is very important to prove one's ability to take responsibility of what one teaches. If not, just pack up the bags, lock the door, and leave.

Last edited by Thalib : 02-06-2002 at 05:13 PM.
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