Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-21-2008, 05:38 AM   #1
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Two different beast all together? You guys familiar with the differences?

Its my understanding, unless I messing up techniques, that Kokyu Ho is where you bring your and ukes wrist to center as you step in front of uke...
- you then raise your arm up...up...infront of ukes face...until its as high/higher and he begins to loose balance and you push back causing him to fall backwards.

Now on to Kokyu Nage (maybe this is on my Aikido 3D program, Ill soon check)...anyway, this seems to be a pointless technique that has no real world usage at all.

Uke grabs your wrist and you move your arm up and then down to throw them...makes no sense when you think of doing this in real life, I just dont see it working.

It seems Aikido is divided into 3 areas...
1- pinning techniques
2-throwing techniqes
3 - breathing techniques (which the above is listed in I suppose) which dont seem to do anything whatsover...with the exception that Kokyu Ho seems practical...it gets Uke off balance...

...but Kokyu naga...honestly, you raise your hand and put it down and uke is going to be thrown. Well, maybe there is more to it and someone can share their experience.

peace

dAlen

p.s. - moves are done in Gyaku Hanmi katate tori
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:04 AM   #2
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

By the way, they both are in the Nage waza (throwing tech) and not Katame waza (pinning).

So one word (nage & Ho) changes the Kokyu move.
Can someone explain how nage changes it from the Ho aspect?

Again, Im trying to learn from association, and with this one, as mentioned, there is little to associate it with anything...except its one of those breathing miracle throws. (again, perhaps works better as a sword technique, etc.)

Peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:08 AM   #3
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
Beard of Chuck Norris's Avatar
Dojo: Aberdeen Aikido Yuishinkai
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 181
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Pretty much every throw in aikido (~100%) is a kokyu nage

i.e. a "breath powered throw"

So you have potentially hundreds of "kokyu nage" that all look different. To help, sometimes they are called by different names but they are still kokyu nage.

Kokyu ho i think just means breathing
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:11 AM   #4
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Jo Duncan wrote: View Post
Pretty much every throw in aikido (~100%) is a kokyu nage

i.e. a "breath powered throw"

So you literally have potentially hundreds of "kokyu nage" that all look different. To help, sometimes they are called by different names but they are still kokyu nage.

Kokyu ho i think just means breathing
So these are not really techniques, but more philosophy?

I suppose I can see them being used successfully in the ancient world if you were using a sword...perhaps - just not with katate tori.

Peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:14 AM   #5
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 560
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
...but Kokyu naga...honestly, you raise your hand and put it down and uke is going to be thrown. Well, maybe there is more to it and someone can share their experience.
What is the rest of your body doing while you raise your hand? That's the big secret...

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:27 AM   #6
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
What is the rest of your body doing while you raise your hand? That's the big secret...

kvaak
Pauliina
Truth is, not much. I know, sounds bad - but I really only just learned the technique. And it basically seemed that you raise your hand and squat and throw. (something like that.)

Yes, I need more practice for sure, and again...Im guessing it has value for maybe a weapons technique. But I cant imagine someone holding your arm long enough for the technique to work...unless they held it because you had a sword in hand.

Am I right in this theory? Just curioius...

peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:57 AM   #7
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
Beard of Chuck Norris's Avatar
Dojo: Aberdeen Aikido Yuishinkai
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 181
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Not a philosophy, the easiest way to understand why to use it I think is to imagine more familiar exercises; in lifting weights you breath out when you lift, boxers exhale when they punch, kendoka kiai and so on.

It's to provide a "link" if you like from top body through abdomen (that's why 'we' usually breath into the belly (one-point, seika tan den, hara... whatever) through the legs, to the ground.

A kokyu nage is a technique, it's just that it is a formless one that is usually taught through a couple of forms like irimi nage, sayu, ushiro tekubi tori nage etc etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 08:00 AM   #8
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Jo Duncan wrote: View Post

A kokyu nage is a technique, it's just that it is a formless one that is usually taught through a couple of forms like irimi nage, sayu, ushiro tekubi tori nage etc etc.
I believe I follow what your saying...thanks.

Peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 06:35 PM   #9
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Kokyu-ho means "breath method". It is THE primary means of developing kokyu/breath power in aiki. IOW, kokyu-ho is simply an "exercise", one in which you and uke are BOTH "exercising" kokyu.

Kokyu-nage, OTOH, is simply applied kokyu-ho.... as in applying kokyu in a technique... if that makes sense? BUT... there's a WHOLE lot more to just "moving your arm up and down"....

There are two primary methods of generating power in aikido - kokyu-ho and funekogi-undo. You need both to make any applied kokyu technique work... which practically means, virtually any technique - whether throwing, striking, pinning or locking.

Obviously, in any technique, kamae, footwork and timing are all important - postural stability in all 3 axes, footwork to manage your ma-ai and move into a tactically superior position where you can apply kokyu, and timing to get there before uke does.

Of course, this is only one "level" of understanding. There are many more "layers" to go thru...

The other day, as I was demonstrating katate tori kokyu nage, I turned to look at one of the kids that wasn't paying attention, just as uke came in hard to grab my wrist... which resulted in her spraining her wrist and bouncing back 3-4 feet, from her own force, right before I turned back to face her. Wasn't quite the kokyu nage I was attempting to demonstrate... but kokyu nage nonetheless

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 07:08 PM   #10
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
You guys familiar with the differences?... ...anyway, this seems to be a pointless technique that has no real world usage at all.
Well, maybe there is more to it and someone can share their experience.
There is more to it.

Kokyu-ho is "breath method" Kokyu nage is "breath throw." Kokyu ho is a principle of physcial action demonstrated in both waza (technique) and in tanren (body training) such as various kokyu undo ( "breath exercises").

Waza are important learning tools to understand the art -- they are not the art. Kokyu undo are not useful as "technique," they are working on the physical sensibilities that make technique happen on its own.

When you see a waza and are corrected in doing a waza, understand your are looking at a narrow slice at that moment in time of that particular physical space, and the "correction" is correct for that instantaneous interaction only. If things change, technique changes. The reality of the aiki interaction is a seamless continuum of the sensibility you study only in isolation in a given "technique" and as simple generla forms of motions and rythm in kokyu undo

"To eat an elephant take many, many, very small bites."

Do not mistake the elephant for the plate of its giblets.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 08:08 PM   #11
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

There is basically the translation like "Onegaishimasu" as "will you work with me" and then there is what it is supposed to feel like in that case it would feel like "new beginning". "Domo arigato gozaimashita" basicaly translates to a very polite "thank you thank you" but the feeling when said in practice is "completely over".

In the case of kokyu translating to "breath" I would find it helpful to think of the feeling of both "rhythm" and "form".

nage as in nageru is "to throw" but the feeling is generally to unbalance upward (and let gravity do the rest of the work).

ho as in "direction" / "method".

Anyway, it sounds like what you are describing as kokyu nage, is what I would think of as a beginning description of katatetori kokyu nage - jo (meaning upward, as opposed to "ge" meaning downward endings). The deal with this one is that you eventually develop connection to their center on the intial contact (before contact really). You extend before they touch you. You bring a short breath into your center and concentrate your mind there which brings you into a nice state of relaxation. You have to strongly develop your verticality so you take them in such that you feel them more pressing on your spine than grabbing your wrist. You set direction with your fingers (they are grabbing your wrist so they have no control over where you point your fingers). You set mental intention at their front hip while you point your fingers in a direction that basically sets your pinky inline with their grab power. You maintain the unification as you move in threw that line of intention. You follow their hand up only because you are attached to them by their grab - and you rotate/spiral your hand around your thumb to keep the connection on the way up. As you continue to move in under pressure your hips must not be going the same general direction as your grabbed hand. At the apex of your ability to maintain that connection, you start to rotate your hand around your pinky. Eventually, it's a really good and useful technique as it requires strong application of important principles.

Note when I think "kokyu ho" I generally think of swari waza kokyu tanden ho. But your teacher is not really wrong for using that to describe that other technique.

The technique you were describing as "kokyu ho" is what I would think of as a beginning description of katatetori kokyu nage - ge (meaning downward, and with 1 hand wrist grab it requires a tenkan). What helped me really appreciate that one was to dip my hand which was being grabbed down and slide under the grab to elongate their arm, and then pull the rest of their arm in by uke's elbow. You can then turn and throw and it is very clear. Next, evolve it a layer. Do not use the elbow, and instead reach under their armpit, so your hand being grabbed goes down, as your other arm goes up. (you tend to think why doesn't the uke just punch me with the other arm for this drill - answer becuase they are helping you play along with a drill). Then you shorten it again and just pull a small amount of dogi fabric to suck them in as you slide your grabbed arm down to load them on to you as you turn to throw. Then, just do it with the arm being grabbed and your mental intention of drawing them in. It starts making a lot more sense when you practice an evolution like that - or it did for me.

Keep asking questions. I like to read what everyone else is writing too!

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 05-21-2008 at 08:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 12:16 AM   #12
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Rob, Erick, Ignatius - just read your post, I appreciate you guys taking the the time to respond - its good to get insight from others regarding these techniques. (Helps me to enrich my own Aikido.)

Peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:29 AM   #13
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
Beard of Chuck Norris's Avatar
Dojo: Aberdeen Aikido Yuishinkai
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 181
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
...snip...
"To eat an elephant take many, many, very small bites."

Do not mistake the elephant for the plate of its giblets.
hehehe, i like that one. Interesting take on the elephant; the one i remember is the three blind men feeling it up.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 09:03 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
the one i remember is the three blind men feeling it up.
Yikes! Did you really just say that???

Kokyu ho dosa -- breath method exercise, in YoshinOrc. As others described.

Katate mochi kokyu nage, is a good waza for weapons retention if someone is trying to restrain you from drawing a weapon. Tends to make them hang on. As you begin working on internal stuff, you'll find other ways of making them hang on, and you'll start to understand better why they might.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 09:17 AM   #15
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
As you begin working on internal stuff, you'll find other ways of making them hang on, and you'll start to understand better why they might.

Best,
Ron
I suppose that is what I initially didnt think about whenever I approached this exercise. - Which is that it seems that these are more geared towards weapons...when someone is motivated to hold on to your arm and not let go.

In that light it makes sense now.

I think Im getting a better grasp around the concept and technique of Kokyu...

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - though I cant currently see what would motivate them to hang on outside of me having a weapon...well I suppose if they thought I was going to swing up and punch their face - is that what you were referring to when you mentioned that you would learn ways to motivate them to hang on?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 09:42 AM   #16
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 560
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
p.s. - though I cant currently see what would motivate them to hang on outside of me having a weapon...well I suppose if they thought I was going to swing up and punch their face - is that what you were referring to when you mentioned that you would learn ways to motivate them to hang on?
That's one possibility. Another is that uke is out of balance and instinctively keeps hold in order to keep upright. That one's harder to accomplish.

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 09:56 AM   #17
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
That's one possibility. Another is that uke is out of balance and instinctively keeps hold in order to keep upright. That one's harder to accomplish.

kvaak
Pauliina
sometimes the obvious is that which we dont see... so thanks, that definitely is another reason.

Peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 10:03 AM   #18
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
I suppose that is what I initially didnt think about whenever I approached this exercise. - Which is that it seems that these are more geared towards weapons...when someone is motivated to hold on to your arm and not let go.

In that light it makes sense now.

I think Im getting a better grasp around the concept and technique of Kokyu...

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - though I cant currently see what would motivate them to hang on outside of me having a weapon...well I suppose if they thought I was going to swing up and punch their face - is that what you were referring to when you mentioned that you would learn ways to motivate them to hang on?
Approaching the martial arts with scepticism is VERY healthy. But making judgements based on what you can or cannot do, or what you do or do not understand can be very tricky. Even a huge error in judgment. So I would keep asking and researching.
Many people will tell you of those WOW moments. "How'd he throw me like that? Where did those punches come from? How did he get in on me like that? I didn't see that choke till it was on me and I was out."
You can add the "how come I couldn't let go?" feeling to that as well.
I've had any manner of different MAers grab my gi (if I was wearing one) or arm or hand whatever and ended up on the ground not being able to let go. There are ways to train your body that your may be entirely unaware of that change the way it moves and thus the way others react to you moving.That can be in grabs, locks, throws, chokes, rolling, and or hits.
It's real, its practical, and its not dojo aiki-bunny crap
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 10:07 AM   #19
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Kokyu nage - Kokyu Ho

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Approaching the martial arts with scepticism is VERY healthy. But making judgements based on what you can or cannot do, or what you do or do not understand can be very tricky. Even a huge error in judgment. So I would keep asking and researching.
Point understood and well taken - thanks

Peace

dAlen
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kokyu Nage techniques do they work? Aiki x Techniques 67 08-31-2006 09:36 AM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 06:20 PM
committed attack/sensitive ukemi paradox Janet Rosen Training 30 10-13-2005 08:18 PM
Randori Seminar with George Ledyard Sensei aikibaka131 Seminars 11 10-24-2003 01:30 AM
kokyu nage Paula Lydon Techniques 7 09-29-2002 10:48 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:37 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate