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Old 05-18-2008, 06:34 PM   #1
Bill Danosky
 
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Gungrabs

Sparing us the obligatory posts like like, "Option one is to run away,etc."- But if you absolutely had to...

Check out this and other similar fare available on youtube and google videos. http://video.google.com/videosearch?...-8&sa=N&tab=gv

We established in "What is combat?" that Aikido is not traditional Jiu Jitsu but these are aikidoka doing gungrabs pretty convincingly. I usually enjoy hearing what the members have to say about this kind of thing, so.... Ready, set, post!

PS: Also if someone who can translate the Japanese text in the video can say if it identifies what style it is.
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:57 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Hate to be negative...but it is all good as long as the guy with the gun stands in a squared off stance within that range. A very limited range and situation.

Sure, good for what it is.

I for one don't hold a gun on someone like that though. Change the stance and distance and this all goes out the window.

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Old 05-18-2008, 08:11 PM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
PS: Also if someone who can translate the Japanese text in the video can say if it identifies what style it is.
The art is Teuk-Gong Moo Sul. It's Korean

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Old 05-18-2008, 08:34 PM   #4
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Sparing us the obligatory posts like like, "Option one is to run away,etc."- But if you absolutely had to...

Check out this and other similar fare available on youtube and google videos. http://video.google.com/videosearch?...-8&sa=N&tab=gv

We established in "What is combat?" that Aikido is not traditional Jiu Jitsu but these are aikidoka doing gungrabs pretty convincingly. I usually enjoy hearing what the members have to say about this kind of thing, so.... Ready, set, post!

PS: Also if someone who can translate the Japanese text in the video can say if it identifies what style it is.
IMO, whatever art or techniques you choose to work with when practicing handgun take-away techniques, I might suggest there are some guiding principles that should be present.

A fight over a gun is just that, it is close quarters, it is as volatile as a Judo, Jujitsu, MMA or Kali match with no rules, and the gun will most likely discharge at least one time.

Thus, here are a few principles to include when developing your tactics and techniques:

1. Contain (grab or trap) the weapon and do not allow the muzzle to point in your direction. Even if you are flipping someone in the air. Never allow the weapon to "cover" you.

2. Instead of the traditional acronym GUN - Grab, Undo, Neutralize) you may include GNU - Grab, Neutralize (koppo), Undo. You may also use this formula: Grab, Point the muzzle toward the opponent and simply Jerk hard enough that the person who has his finger in the trigger guard gets an autonomic reflex in his trigger finger..

3. Autonomic reactions cause the trigger finger flex automatically and will likely discharge the weapon. If you grab the slide of an semi-automatic handgun as part of your containment tactics, the weapon will only fire once. Then it will experience a type 1,2, or 3 malfunction. It will not be able to fire again until the jam" is physically cleared. Nevertheless, the weapon is still an effective club. (There is a myth running about in martial arts circles that the heat and gasses of a discharged weapon will burn your hand if it is holding the slide. This is not true).

4. The direction of force you apply to the weapon hand has a lot to do with flex response in the trigger finger. Techniques that flex the wrist (kote haeshi, etc) will make the trigger finger flex. Upward techniques will likely do the same. Techniques that cause the wrist to extend are less likely to make the trigger finger flex. Downward (verticle with no flex or extension in angle) motions are also safe but rarely practiced.

5. Which side you move the weapon is important for a second reason. In most traditional techniques (again assuming a right handed handgun), if you push the weapon to your left, you have a better chance that the discharged round will not hit you (30%). If you push it to the right as in kote gaeshi, you have a 70-80% change that the discharged round will strike your torso.

These are a few of the principles I subscribe to and am anxious to see if other principles are available from the other readers on this forum.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:42 PM   #5
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Re: Gungrabs

Even if it is not a myth and you do get burned that's better than being shot.

So do people with guns practice how to avoid people trying to take their guns? I would think police must right? What do those techniques look like?

Rob
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:58 PM   #6
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Re: Gungrabs

In the video, the moves taken from Aikido?

I didn't see the first move very well. To me it look as if the guy holding the gun could get a shot off, don't know.

A problem I see with so many demonstrations like this is the two demonstrators are generally equal in size and weight. The moves are not bad, they work. Am saying I would like to see demonstrators not matched up in height and weight, when they are it looks like a prop. It is more interesting and believable when there are mismatched demonstrators.

What the demonstrators show is good. Even though the guy with the guy is in a static squared-off stance in close range of each other. I would not be surprised if that is the majority situation of that would face by someone. I have seen on TV cops facing a gun, it is at the onset the shooter is in a static stance. I believe if the cops where trained in Aikido they would have ended the situation quickly and gained control. There would be no fight or struggle. The moves I think would be effective against a gun. MMA don't have good moves for handling a gun. Opps. I didn't say that.....
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:01 PM   #7
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Even if it is not a myth and you do get burned that's better than being shot.

So do people with guns practice how to avoid people trying to take their guns? I would think police must right? What do those techniques look like?

Rob
There are many systems of gun retention. From holster design to posture and distancing to jujitsu-style defenses. neOn the Lae Enforcement world, one that needs to be more established in the courts is also my personal preference.

I am a right handed shooter (primary hand). Thus, I carry a left-handed tactical folder sequestered on my left side. Attempting to grab my gun is a "lethal force" action. Thus, I am ready to respond with lethal force by cutting his wrist or main vital points, depending how much I am fearing for my life.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:02 PM   #8
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Even if it is not a myth and you do get burned that's better than being shot.

So do people with guns practice how to avoid people trying to take their guns? I would think police must right? What do those techniques look like?

Rob
I know the bad guys do. What they practice is easy and learned almost instantly compared to learning to take a gun away.

I would be interest too in those techniques police use, MMA don't...opps... not going to say it, but I am thinking it.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:03 PM   #9
rob_liberti
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Re: Gungrabs

so your arm is extended, and someone tries to grab your gun and push it to the left, what do you do? (besides intuit their movement and squeeze the trigger before they get there?!)
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:12 PM   #10
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
so your arm is extended, and someone tries to grab your gun and push it to the left, what do you do? (besides intuit their movement and squeeze the trigger before they get there?!)
if an opponent grand the slide and/or barrel of your gun, he will by definition have superior leverage initially.

Again, why do we think that roy Rogers white hat cowboys should only carry one weapon?

Tenkan, present your second weapon and quickly dispatch the opponent. Yippie Taiyo Kai ye.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:17 PM   #11
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

regarding the heat of a slide or barrel, I had to prove the myth was wrong to several martial artists by going to the range and doing it with live ammo. It is good practice. Seeing and feeling the results will teach your body what it should do.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:42 AM   #12
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Re: Gungrabs

Here's one more thing to consider - completely not revealed in dojo training environments... When that first round goes off, and it most likely will, now that you just moved the weapon to this side or that side, you got to ask: Who did you let get shot? If you happen to be walking with your spouse or your child, or if you got one on each side - Did you get them shot with that first round?

Come on - this is real-life violence - what a bunch of junk. Looks like kids playing cowboys to me. No consideration for the real-life consequences that come with a round being fired off.

As for police tactics... It's all the same, from any martial art: You got to know how to make a situation ideal for the weapon you have and/or how to have the ideal weapon for the situation you are in. There are many ways of making this work. If you are good, the ways are nearly infinite. If you are real good, the ways are infinite.

If you are in a range where your firearm can be grabbed like that, you failed at one or both of these elements. In the great scheme of the universe, the simplest way of saying it: you got what's coming, since you played a huge role in making it happen.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:53 AM   #13
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Dave

Great post. In the private sector we call that, "what the bullet hits, you buy." cars, glass windows, you name it.

I mentioned downward technique on weapon take sways. That is my favorite and one that Colonel Mark Miles (my jujitsu teacher) swore by. The technique worked in a variety of positions (from the weapon still in the holster to every state of the draw. It had the low probability of the weapon discharging. If discharged,the muzzle was pointed to the ground. Your initial grip on the weapon insured that the weapon would jam on the first round and the grip did not require dexterity. The grip also was a foundation for a variety of techniques thus ensuring continuity and flow in case the original technique failed.

I would post the technique or email a video of it un request via PM
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:53 AM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Gungrabs

All gun takeaways pre-suppose one thing i.e. the guy with the gun doesn't know what he is doing. It's not helpful to analyze gun takeaways from the standpoint of CQB trained firearms experts. They will not stand where you can touch them. If they had to stand where you could reach them, they would have the gun where you couldn't reach it.

Gun takeaways are strictly for an encounter with the amateur. If that gun is pointed at you and you aren't already shot, then there is another agenda; intimidation, hostage taking, something like that. Intimidation is the big one. If you've ever had a gun stuck in your face or in your belly you know that it works just fine... it's intimidating as hell.

If the guy is dumb enough to touch you, then takeaways are fairly easy. My objection to most retention or takeaway systems is that they do not utilize enough impact technique. If you take a gun away from someone and you haven't struck them, you are almost certainly now grappling for that weapon.

All of the best retention and takeaway systems I have seen involve serious impact and preferably balance breaks thereby giving you the time to bring the firearm to bear on the assailant. Aikido - Aiki jutsu derived techniques are great for this but you need to have major atemi and you should train to shoot the assailant as part of the takeaway. Then, in a real situation you can decide not to shoot but your default setting is to take the gun and use it on the subject in as close to one smooth movement as possible.

Most retention and takeaway training is done with a partner who does not have strong intention. It makes the whole thing appear too easy.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:58 AM   #15
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Re: Gungrabs

Hi Chris,

Yes, I agree, the downward angle is the best one for the expended round.

Though the best thing, in my opinion, is to deploy your weapon so that the odds of having it successfully grabbed by an opponent are next to nil, one of the easiest ways of getting out of a grabbing situation and back into the former situation I just mentioned is to perform inward or outward spirals (think nikyo or kote gaeshi) with the weapon - moving inside or outside the grab attempt. This has the person miss in the grab attempt and brings the weapon back onto the centerline for a shot - both allowing you to regain your optimal range. Once you get good at it, and it's not that hard (believe me), well, the "grabber" is just reaching for air - in real life, they are shot, and/or wounded, or dead. If they happen to get a grip on the weapon you end up employing a nikyo or a kote-gaeshi to break the grip, bringing your weapon back onto the centerline - and they are shot and/or wounded, or dead.

d

Last edited by senshincenter : 05-19-2008 at 09:01 AM.

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Old 05-19-2008, 09:23 AM   #16
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
When that first round goes off, and it most likely will, now that you just moved the weapon to this side or that side, you got to ask: Who did you let get shot? ... If you are good, the ways are nearly infinite. If you are real good, the ways are infinite.
So true, David. Being aware of this likelihood gives you an opportunity, though. Just as in two and three man jiyu waza when you're throwing your ukes at each other, you could use other opponents as backstops "if you are good". Better get some realistic practice in!
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:00 AM   #17
Eric Joyce
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
[b]
All of the best retention and takeaway systems I have seen involve serious impact and preferably balance breaks thereby giving you the time to bring the firearm to bear on the assailant. Aikido - Aiki jutsu derived techniques are great for this but you need to have major atemi and you should train to shoot the assailant as part of the takeaway. Then, in a real situation you can decide not to shoot but your default setting is to take the gun and use it on the subject in as close to one smooth movement as possible.
Hi George,

I couldn't agree with you more. When I was Krav Maga, a lot of the gun defense included a lot of the striking that is necessary to remove the weapon. Heal palm stikes, punch the face, elbow strikes, goin strikes, etc. The key to all gun takeaways is to remove yourself from the line of fire, neutralize the threat quickly and then remove yourself from the situation.

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:07 AM   #18
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hi George,

I couldn't agree with you more. When I was Krav Maga, a lot of the gun defense included a lot of the striking that is necessary to remove the weapon. Heal palm stikes, punch the face, elbow strikes, goin strikes, etc. The key to all gun takeaways is to remove yourself from the line of fire, neutralize the threat quickly and then remove yourself from the situation.
IMO, Great observations from everyone. The best studies (ESI), ILEA, Frontsight, have used the dialectic of gun experts and martial arts experts filtered through the nexus of street experience.

When a gunfight becomes a fight with a gun, the objective of the person holding the gun should be to gain distance, the goal of the man without the gun should be to close or run for cover or concealment. If choosing to close, he must keep the muzzle from pointing at himself. Best practices are to use the gun against the shooter, use a back-up (edged weapon) tool, or make the weapon jam. There are a variety of techniques that aid in understanding how to defeat fingers, wrists, arms and whole-body postures. The principles underlying this techniques will probably be what comes out of you during the struggle.

Most robberies or intimidations with a weapon are powerful aggressive movements that overwhelm the victim's balance and strike fear in their psyche.

Nevertheless, when the game turns into a fight with a gun, the more deliberate man has the better chance of survival.

My training in jujitsu and aikijujitsu has given me excellent skills and a framework for this type of an attack. In the nexus of such an attack, decisions must be instinctive because mistakes are lethal.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:34 AM   #19
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Re: Gungrabs

Once again, you guys that have access to the military and police training are so lucky!
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:44 AM   #20
Eric Joyce
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Once again, you guys that have access to the military and police training are so lucky!
Hey Bill,

Don't be too discourgaed my friend. If close quarter combatives is something you would like to add to your Yoshinkan training, I recommend picking up some information on WW2 combatives or some information on Krav Maga. Nothing like having more tools

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:47 AM   #21
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Once again, you guys that have access to the military and police training are so lucky!
True Bill but training is just one part of common sense.

If it looks stupid it is....

William Hazen
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:17 PM   #22
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Eric,

IMO it is more than simply going to a Krav Maga school or picking up old Fairbairn-Sykes stuff. Military has moved away from this methodology for several reasons.

The dynamics of the situation is what is important...that is the movement or fluidity of the enviornment.

The problem with tactics is we try to codify stuff in manuals Fairbairn-Sykes style and much gets lost in the translation.

You end up with "one steps" "two-step" or multiple step drills such as the video that was provided. It assumes certain parameters, while assuming away other parameters.

Not picking on Krav Maga...some very good things in there and depending on instructors, they teach some very good dynamics..

DT or Military Combatives, TTPs or what not are much more complex and involved than picking up a manual or going to a martial arts school...any school...not just K-M.

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Old 05-19-2008, 01:04 PM   #23
Eric Joyce
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Eric,

IMO it is more than simply going to a Krav Maga school or picking up old Fairbairn-Sykes stuff. Military has moved away from this methodology for several reasons.

The dynamics of the situation is what is important...that is the movement or fluidity of the enviornment.

The problem with tactics is we try to codify stuff in manuals Fairbairn-Sykes style and much gets lost in the translation.

You end up with "one steps" "two-step" or multiple step drills such as the video that was provided. It assumes certain parameters, while assuming away other parameters.

Not picking on Krav Maga...some very good things in there and depending on instructors, they teach some very good dynamics..

DT or Military Combatives, TTPs or what not are much more complex and involved than picking up a manual or going to a martial arts school...any school...not just K-M.
Hi Kevin,

The reading material suggestion given to Bill was more for informational purposes. From his response, it appeared he may have in interest in that DT/Military tactics. No amount of reading material can replace actual training but it gives you a frame of reference.

As for codification of techniques, isn't that done to a certain degree within all martial arts i.e kata? When tori attacks this way, uke responds this way? When learning Yoshinkan aikido, there is a step by step process that is learned to enforce and ingrain basics. But in my experience, my teachers never assumed away anything. In a fight, anything can happen...we just train for the most common types of attack, but we also did some other training to incoporate the other types of scenarios. Can't cover them all, but the intent of the training was to open your mind to other scenarios.

Now back to the topic of gun disarms, could you explain to me a little about the "fluidity of the enviornment" in the context of gun disarms?

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:23 PM   #24
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The art is Teuk-Gong Moo Sul. It's Korean
I'm beginning to think there is nothing on the net concerning this subject (Aikido/ Japanese style martial arts)that you are not aware of!!

Very useful person you are...

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Old 05-19-2008, 01:49 PM   #25
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
True Bill but training is just one part of common sense.

If it looks stupid it is....

William Hazen
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