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Old 01-20-2002, 10:09 PM   #26
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
I have to confess that I don't have much information about the above mentioned Senseis. What I can confirm, is the interviews with Osensei's Uchi Deshi of the post war period, who don't seem to believe much in super-natural powers, but rather in the exceptional martial abilities of Osensei and his dedication to training even at old age.

cheers,
Edward
As I said before, technically speaking there were no uchi-deshi in the post-war period. Anyway that doesn't affect my point. Some of the uchi-deshi believed in M. Ueshiba's supernatural powers and some didn't. Your statement was that none of them believed.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-20-2002, 10:31 PM   #27
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By the way, anybody who's interested in a related posting on post-war uchi-deshi should check out Peter Goldsbury's posting at http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...&threadid=9202

You have to scroll about a third of the way down to get to the posting in question.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-20-2002, 11:11 PM   #28
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So you mean that Senseis Saito, Kohei, Tamura, Chiba, Kurita...etc were never Uch-Deshi?

That's a very revolutionary information and would change Aikido history if proven true. Are you sure about it? I read Dr. Goldsbury's post and didn't find it convincing. Uchi_Deshi are the live-in students who perform various duties including carrying the bag of the founder and serving as his punching bags, so to speak. I don't believe that all the present day Shihans who were Uchi-Deshi to Osensei are all a bunch of LIARS.

As for the mentioned pre-war Uchi Deshi believing in Osensei powers, no one is disputing this with you, so you don't have to repeat it about 4 times

Cheers,
Edward

Last edited by Edward : 01-20-2002 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 01-21-2002, 12:49 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward

So you mean that Senseis Saito, Kohei, Tamura, Chiba, Kurita...etc were never Uch-Deshi?
Yup.

Quote:

That's a very revolutionary information and would change Aikido history if proven true. Are you sure about it? I read Dr. Goldsbury's post and didn't find it convincing. Uchi_Deshi are the live-in students who perform various duties including carrying the bag of the founder and serving as his punching bags, so to speak. I don't believe that all the present day Shihans who were Uchi-Deshi to Osensei are all a bunch of LIARS.
It depends how you define "uchi-deshi". To be an uchi-deshi pre-war was a little like being a traditional European apprentice, and involved a lot more then carrying some bags. Today you can be an "uchi-deshi" for a month at Iwama if you like. The nature of the postition is, of course, vastly different. The post-war guys, with some exceptions (like Morihiro Saito) didn't even have all that much direct contact with M. Ueshiba. Most of the guys that you listed were taught mainly by K. Ueshiba (and later, buy K. Tohei).

Sure, there were people who lived in the dojo - I've lived in dojo myself, but that doesn't make me an uchi-deshi.

So, what was unconvincing about the post? The sources, Arikawa and K. Ueshiba, are just about as authoratative as you can get without a seance...

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-21-2002, 02:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


It depends how you define "uchi-deshi". To be an uchi-deshi pre-war was a little like being a traditional European apprentice, and involved a lot more then carrying some bags.

The post-war guys, with some exceptions (like Morihiro Saito) didn't even have all that much direct contact with M. Ueshiba. Most of the guys that you listed were taught mainly by K. Ueshiba (and later, buy K. Tohei).

You're right that it depends on how you define uchi deshi. About the rest, maybe you will change your mind when you read Aikido Online magazine interview with Kurita Sensei.
Here is an excerpt but please read the entire interview at www.aikidoonline.com

Cheers,
Edward


"What was your life like as an uchideshi?

I was the lowest in rank, and we were often sent to accompany O-Sensei to his dojo at Iwama. We would go out there and work in the garden, chop wood and do lots of chores. O-Sensei was growing daikon radish, carrots and other vegetables.

In Iwama we would have a special morning bokken class with O-Sensei that was closed to the public. Often it was only three or four people--Saito Sensei, often Chiba Sensei, and a few others. In the evening there was a taijitsu class, but there weren't many people at that class, either. O-Sensei would teach all the classes, or Saito Sensei would teach when he couldn't teach. But there wasn't a sense that any of us were really teachers--we were all just disciples of O-Sensei. We were all ambassadors for O-Sensei's art. That is the way it is in traditional Japanese budo."
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Old 01-21-2002, 02:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


You're right that it depends on how you define uchi deshi. About the rest, maybe you will change your mind when you read Aikido Online magazine interview with Kurita Sensei.
Here is an excerpt but please read the entire interview at www.aikidoonline.com
Actually, I've read that article before. I'm not sure what it would change my mind about...

As I said, the post-war deal was quite a bit different than the pre-war one. If someone wants to call it by the same name that's fine, but it doesn't make it the same thing.

For the record, my first instructor said that he was an uchi-deshi too, but I don't hold it against him .

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-21-2002, 08:46 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


So you mean that Senseis Saito, Kohei, Tamura, Chiba, Kurita...etc were never Uch-Deshi?

That's a very revolutionary information and would change Aikido history if proven true. Are you sure about it? I read Dr. Goldsbury's post and didn't find it convincing. Uchi_Deshi are the live-in students who perform various duties including carrying the bag of the founder and serving as his punching bags, so to speak. I don't believe that all the present day Shihans who were Uchi-Deshi to Osensei are all a bunch of LIARS.

Cheers,
Edward
Edward,

I do not want to make an issue of this, but your post suggests that either "all the presentday Shihans who were Uchi-Deshi" or myself are liars. I think you define the issue too sharply.

Kisshomaru Doshu told me himself that O Sensei had no postwar uchideshi. I know very well that many postwar students of O Sensei claimed to be his uchideshi (including some of my own teachers), but this is not what Doshu told me. And if you consider the differences between the prewar Kobukan and the postwar Hombu, I think you can see the reason for Doshu's statement to me. The postwar students simply did not have the constant 24-hours-a-day contact with the Founder that students like Rinjiro Shirata had in the Kobukan. Thus, the postwar students like Chiba and Yamada were deshi of Kisshomaru, rather than of the Founder himself.

In fact, Arikawa Sensei tried to soften Kisshomaru Doshu's strict idea of what constituted being an uchideshi of the Founder. He stated that Tamura Sensei was an 'uchideshi' in all but name, as were Morihiro Saito and Masatake Fujita. I myself do not think that the "presentday shihans who were uchideshi to O Sensei were all a bunch of liars'. I think they used the term more loosely than Doshu did.

Thus Saito Morihiro Sensei had a very close relationship with the Founder, probably closer than many of the prewar Kobukan students. But he was not an 'uchideshi' as Kisshomaru Doshu understood the term. I think the issue is one of strict defnition, rather than a judgement obout a relationship with the Founder.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-21-2002, 08:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury




I do not want to make an issue of this, but your post suggests that either "all the presentday Shihans who were Uchi-Deshi" or myself are liars. I think you define the issue too sharply.

Dr. Goldsbury,

Sorry but I didn't mean it to be understood this way. Of course I respect your opinion very much, but please forgive me for wanting to know more.

It is definitely a surprising issue for me.

I think the only person who could have cleared the matter is Osensei himself. Unfortunately he's not around. However, the only living witness now is Saito Sensei and I recall that in one interview he talked about the "American" Shihans as Uchi Deshi.

So this matter is very confusing

On the other hand, I personally think that the last generation of "disciples" of Osensei, and their students, played the most important role in the dissemination of Aikido worldwide.

By the way, according to your post, is Tamura Sensei considered an Uchi Deshi or not, since the phrase is a little unclear to me.

Best regards,
Edward


Last edited by Edward : 01-21-2002 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 01-21-2002, 05:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury

In fact, Arikawa Sensei tried to soften Kisshomaru Doshu's strict idea of what constituted being an uchideshi of the Founder. He stated that Tamura Sensei was an 'uchideshi' in all but name, as were Morihiro Saito and Masatake Fujita. I myself do not think that the "presentday shihans who were uchideshi to O Sensei were all a bunch of liars'. I think they used the term more loosely than Doshu did.
That's basically the key point. Today you can spend a month at Iwama as an "uchi-deshi", but that doesn't mean that you're doing the same thing that Shirata and Shioda did.

According to Gozo Shioda, in "Aikido Jinsei", uchi-deshi training at the Kobukan trained from 5:00 in the morning until 9:00 at night. At that time M. Ueshiba was actively teaching, so there was extensive contact him pretty much all day every day.

Post-war M. Ueshiba was in Tokyo (where most of the post-war teachers were raised) at most one-third of the time, and much of that time he wasn't actively teaching. When he was teaching his classes would often consist of long lectures about the meaning of the universe - if they were lucky he might also teach some technique. A very sharp contrast to the amount of actual contact and training time compared to the pre-war days. This isn't to say that the post-war folks weren't good - they certainly were (and are), but it seems to me that they were mostly students of K. Ueshiba with some sprinkling of instruction from his father rather then the kind of direct students that were around in the pre-war days.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-22-2002, 11:16 PM   #35
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Actually I talked to Shihan and asked him his opinion, since this story is still confusing me.

He laughed at the whole matter and asked me why do we worry about such insignificant things instead of training. He said that Uchi-Deshi is a live-in student in opposition to live-out student, that's all. We shouldn't give this term more importance than it has.

He thinks that since there is no competition in Aikido, we are compensating our need for it by word-competition...

I hope he will forgive me for posting this in a public forum, and I do hope he doesn't find out, otherwise, next time he will call me to be Uke,.....

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 01-23-2002, 06:13 AM   #36
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Hello Edward,

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Actually I talked to Shihan and asked him his opinion, since this story is still confusing me.

PAG. I think part of the problem is that books like 'Aikido Kaiso Ueshiba Morihei Den', 'Aikido Ichiro', 'Aikido Shintai', 'Aikido Jinsei', which do give more detail about the postwar history of aikido in Japan, have not been translated into English. John Stevens does not go into much detail and I was never aware of the apparent discrepancies between the various stories I had heard until I came here, learned Japanese, read the books, and talked to lots of people.

Before I came here, all my information about aikido and the Hombu was based on Westbrook & Ratti, Tohei Koichi's earlier books, Kisshomaru Ueshiba's 'Aikido' (in English) and the 5 volumes of Saito Morihiro's 'Traditional Aikido'. And, of course, on what my teachers told me, but there was a context to what they said, which I now understand much better because I live here.

For example, from talking to my earlier teachers, I had the impression that the Founder accepted a number of 'uchi-deshi' to send them abroad to teach aikido. Not quite true. (1) There were a number of deshi at the Aikikai Hombu, who were live-in students and were therefore 'uchi' in the sense given by your teacher (Mr Fukakusa?), who have never resided abroad. (2) The deshi were accepted by the Founder, in the sense that he had the final say in the matter, but on the recommendation of Kisshomaru. (3) The question of living abroad arose quite some time after their acceptance and they actually volunteered to go and teach abroad.

==========

He laughed at the whole matter and asked me why do we worry about such insignificant things instead of training. He said that Uchi-Deshi is a live-in student in opposition to live-out student, that's all. We shouldn't give this term more importance than it has.

PAG. Yes. It was a very good answer, but who do you / does he mean by "we"? Nevertheless, it still conflicts with Kisshomaru Doshu's statement that the only uchi-deshi of the Founder were his prewar students and that he (Kisshomaru) had no uchi-deshi. I interpreted Doshu to mean,as Chris Li suggested, that the closest 'uchi-deshi' relationships between the Founder and his live-in students existed at the Kobukan before the War. After the War, times had changed. For one thing there were two centres of aikido: Iwama and Tokyo, and Kisshomaru and the deshi shuttled between the two places. For another, the task of building the organisation, including accepting deshi, whether 'uchi' or 'soto', had passed to Kisshomaru. But Kisshomaru was also being humble, in not claiming to have the same intensive master-student relationship with students that his father had.

==========

He thinks that since there is no competition in Aikido, we are compensating our need for it by word-competition...

PAG. As your teacher said, the term 'uchi-deshi' should not be given "more importance than it has". And I know exactly what it means, in context. So should I have withheld this information? Of course not. This is a bulletin board, for the free exchange of information and opinions, not a dojo.

For me, one of the most shocking, and disheartening, experiences in Japan was to hear aikido shihans, role models who should have known better, squabbling over who was an uchi-deshi and who was a kayoi-deshi (a commuting student) and claiming smuggly that "X was not an uchi-deshi". They sounded like young siblings fighting over their parents' affection.

I am not sure I agree about competition, but in any case we are not the only ones who "compensate by word-competition".

==========

I hope he will forgive me for posting this in a public forum, and I do hope he doesn't find out, otherwise, next time he will call me to be Uke,.....

PAG. I assume you are joking.

Cheers,
Edward
Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-23-2002 at 06:20 AM.

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Old 01-23-2002, 07:20 AM   #37
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Cool UCHIDESHI OR NOT?

Dear Goldsbury Sama,

I guess I was one of the first persons to raise this problem 3 or 4 years ago.
To discuss this (or any other) matter, we must first clearly state what we mean by uchideshi (internal student).
Traditionally, uchideshi lived with a master as almost a son, being supported, fed and hosted by the master and training dayly with him (and just with him). If you lived outside your master's house and trained occasionally, you were not an uchideshi.
The pre-war students went or were sent to the master's dojo, to live there exclusively as disciples and to train only with him.
After the war, some people lived in the Hombu Dojo, training with Kisshomaru, Tohei, Shirata, Tamura et al. They weren't, in that sense, Kisshomaru's Uchideshi, because they didn't train EXCLUSIVELY with him and weren't a part of his household. Were they better or worse than Pre-War students? I really don't know. I believe no one created their own styles. OTOH, some believe that their experience was larger, since they trained with many masters. Who knows?
The undeniable fact is that, from after the war onwards, the name UCHIDESHI changed its meanings from a total disciple to a more elusive relation. Today, we have people who PAY to train for a time at a dojo (not always with the master, but many times with a sempai, and both the master and the people pretend they are uchideshi, when, in reality, they are more intensive students).
So, I don't believe Edward and you are really diverging. I think it's just a misunderstanding of the term (each one is talking about different things) and the intention of the Shihan and Kisshomaru Doshu, when they talked about uchidechi. But it's curious that the same people that proclaim now that this discussion is futile ARE the same people that originally pretended to be O-Sensei's DIRECT STUDENTS and UCHIDESHI, using a loose interpretation of the word.
Best

Last edited by Kami : 01-23-2002 at 07:26 AM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 01-23-2002, 10:41 AM   #38
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Re: UCHIDESHI OR NOT?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami

So, I don't believe Edward and you are really diverging. I think it's just a misunderstanding of the term (each one is talking about different things) and the intention of the Shihan and Kisshomaru Doshu, when they talked about uchidechi.
There is no misunderstanding on terms between Dr. Goldsbury and me, but rather between Kisshomaru Doshu and the "Uchi-Deshi" . I am not in a position to agree or disagree with someone of Dr. Goldsbury's stature and knowledge in the subject. I am trying to get from him as much information as possible since this subject is quite interesting for me.

As for the comments of my teacher, they were said to me jokingly after a training session and should not be misunderstood or taken seriously.

To return to the subject, I always thought that uchi-deshi meant live-in student, but the new information for me is that this term involved a personal relationship with the teacher as explained by Dr. Goldsbury, Kami, and Chris. In this case, any person who claims to have been something which he was not is very serious matter to me. There is a big controversy going on in England about a similar matter.

I am honestly quite disappointed to know something like this.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 01-23-2002, 06:53 PM   #39
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Ubaldo,

Actually my last post was in partial response to Edward's question, quoted below, but I spent too much time on his later post.

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


Dr. Goldsbury,

By the way, according to your post, is Tamura Sensei considered an Uchi Deshi or not, since the phrase is a little unclear to me.

Nobuyoshi Tamura entered the Hombu in 1953 and stayed till 1964 when he went to France. If there is a real difference between prewar and postwar uchi-deshi (as Kisshomaru Doshu thought), then he was not. However, it was Arikawa Sensei who told me in conversation that Tamura Sensei was an uchi-deshi "in all but name". I think, as you say, that the main diffference between prewar and postwar uchi-deshi is that the latter were attached to the Ueshiba household, with its two branches, rather than to one person.

Does it matter? No, not really, except to aikido historians. But I am struck by the similarities between discussions about uchi-deshi, especially by some of our Japanese senseis, and the squabbles that took place among the disciples in the early church about who was closest to Jesus. But soon, there will be no uchi-deshi at all, of any description.

Edward,

I was pleasantly surprised to receive an e-mail message from you via this bulletin board. If you sendme your private e-mail address, I will reply to you privately.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-23-2002, 07:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


Does it matter? No, not really, except to aikido historians. But I am struck by the similarities between discussions about uchi-deshi, especially by some of our Japanese senseis, and the squabbles that took place among the disciples in the early church about who was closest to Jesus.
Now that one is easy (for Gnostics at least), Mary...
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Old 01-23-2002, 11:47 PM   #41
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Re: Re: UCHIDESHI OR NOT?

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
I am honestly quite disappointed to know something like this.
It gets worse .

Most of the foreign "shihan" were not actually supposed to be using the title, it seems, check out http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ArticleID=1105

A pertinent quote:

-----------------

In fact, however, there are currently no teachers-Japanese or non-Japanese-authorized under the International Regulations to use the title shihan. Not a single one.

-----------------

Of course, the situation has altered somewhat since that interview.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-24-2002, 01:35 AM   #42
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Re: Re: Re: UCHIDESHI OR NOT?

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


It gets worse .

Most of the foreign "shihan" were not actually supposed to be using the title, it seems, check out http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ArticleID=1105

A pertinent quote:

-----------------

In fact, however, there are currently no teachers-Japanese or non-Japanese-authorized under the International Regulations to use the title shihan. Not a single one.

-----------------

Of course, the situation has altered somewhat since that interview.

Best,

Chris
I always thought that any person becomes Shihan automatically by getting 6th Dan. Now if I understand it well, one can be 7 or 8 Dan but not necessarily Shihan. Is that correct?

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:12 AM   #43
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Re: Re: Re: Re: UCHIDESHI OR NOT?

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


I always thought that any person becomes Shihan automatically by getting 6th Dan. Now if I understand it well, one can be 7 or 8 Dan but not necessarily Shihan. Is that correct?

Cheers,
Edward
Yes, it's a separate certification.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-24-2002, 07:35 AM   #44
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Smile

Quote:
Originally posted by ca


Now that one is easy (for Gnostics at least), Mary...
Very nice post, Colleen. But which one?

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Old 01-25-2002, 07:27 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


Very nice post, Colleen. But which one?

Mary Magdalene.
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Old 01-31-2002, 03:23 PM   #46
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Originally posted by shihonage
In order to summon your ultimate, all-defeating, Earth-shattering spiritual powers, pronounce after me the following words:

Klaatu
Berata
Nik... Damn.
Nickel ?
Necktie ?
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Old 01-31-2002, 03:39 PM   #47
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I found some help for you.
I have the DVD.
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