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Old 07-10-2008, 10:44 AM   #101
Aiki1
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
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If that's a sphere of power in aikido circles, I've never seen it
Nope. He is still within it and thus you have control (if you have the means to use it -- which you quite obviously have the goods to do)
I agree. In my approach, working with Uke's sphere of power is basic to understanding tsukuri, resistance, and what we call Kinesthetic Invisibility (although not the only factor in that principle.) If Nage works Within Uke's sphere of power, ain't much going to happen.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:52 AM   #102
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Wow...IMO very good basic stuff

Thanks for Sharing Chris!
William Hazen
Gotta agree with that.

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:07 AM   #103
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Thanks for posting it, I find it Very interesting. I Rarely see Aikido that pays that much attention to actual Kuzushi. Great.
Kuzushi is a huge focus of what we do. After you get *real* kuzushi, the rest is much easier. I'm getting better at staying solid through the tsukuri phase (probably where the Aunkai stuff has paid the most dividends for me at this point).

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I think it's closer to the "third way" per se than you may feel. There are solid classical principles here that as I said, I don't usually see.... In my style the dimensions of "internal skills" and Ki come into play a lot, but there are some real similarities here....
Again thanks. I didn't want to overstate any similarities to what you were describing. Because this stuff is being done so slowly, I associate it more with the second "way". Applying the same stuff to some movement/intent/timing is what (for me anyway) enables the third "way" you were talking about. I think most Aikido folks either get trapped in the first way you talked about, or try to do the third way without the proper foundational training to actually make it work. In order to make it appear like what they think is happening, they start tanking and then never get the real feedback they need to get where they want to go.

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
What are your influences? I see some things I've seen from Don Angier.
Well we're not Yanagi Ryu, and I've only trained with Don at the Expos. He did single me out at one point to give me some sage advice however, he told me, "You have all the martial aptitude of a damp kitchen sponge..." Ah, Don, he has such a way with words. But my teacher (Neil) while never a formal student of Don's was able to spend a good amount of time down in SoCal with him. I really do have to be clear however that we're not Yanagi-ryu. Johnny and Rich have also been very generous with information in the *very* limited amount of mat time I've had with them. That said, I don't know any of the Yanagi Ryu kata, and our curriculum is distinct. I don't talk up the connection much because I don't want to overstate the influence or connection. I'd rather what I'm doing stand on its own.

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Old 07-10-2008, 11:14 AM   #104
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Larry,

Thanks for participating. I'm somewhat confused by part of your post, though. In the vid from 7 to 11, I'm tilted to the side, on one foot, and my hand is outside my center. I'm not seeing your point about how that would support my structural integrity? Granted, I'm doing something internally to keep my structure, but I definitely know that if I had not been doing that, I would have gone down.

In the sense that my "structure" (internal) isn't broken, I'd agree that there was no kuzushi. In the sense that my physical structure wasn't broken, well, I'm on one foot, sideways, with my arm stretched out. Can't get any more broken physically than that.

Thanks,
Mark
Hi Mark - I hope you didn't take anything I said as a criticism, it wasn't at all, you've got skills and it's great to see your approach.

I see what you're saying - I guess what I'd say is, if at that point you were only able to keep your balance because of your internal skill, then you're right. To my eye, Nage seems to be "supportive" in a physical way and at a deeper level, in my experience that can happen sometimes even when it looks like they're trying to get you to lose your balance.... I see your point though.

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Old 07-10-2008, 11:15 AM   #105
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Wow...IMO very good basic stuff and actually Chris your KG is very close to how we approach it. Everything connected to center, position, use of the elbow, Irimi, about the only thing we do defferent is washing the arm and leading the fingers by cutting with Ukes Arm rather than pushing down on the arm...
Thanks William. I'm fairly familiar with the Nishio line's basics. I got my shodan from Seikikai Aikido whose founder (Kurita Minouru) based a lot of his own aiki-weapons on the time he spent studying with Nishio Sensei. It's the only other style I've seen that had the kind of focus on riai, or matching the paired weapons work to a parallel open hand movement that you see in Nishio Sensei's line. It's a good observation that our stuff has less emphasis on a cutting mechanic, it's much more of a striking mechanic.

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Old 07-10-2008, 11:22 AM   #106
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Nice thread, thanks for the vids. Not much to add,

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-10-2008, 11:30 AM   #107
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Hi Mark - I hope you didn't take anything I said as a criticism, it wasn't at all, you've got skills and it's great to see your approach.

I see what you're saying - I guess what I'd say is, if at that point you were only able to keep your balance because of your internal skill, then you're right. To my eye, Nage seems to be "supportive" in a physical way and at a deeper level, in my experience that can happen sometimes even when it looks like they're trying to get you to lose your balance.... I see your point though.
Hi Larry,
No, didn't take it that way at all. I was just confused by your post and thought it worth getting some clarification. Anything to help make us all better is worth looking into.

Hmmm ... I'll have to view the vid again. It's really hard to capture any kind of essence on video. And I understand what you are saying now.

But, Brian was putting in a decent amount of force trying to take me down. At times, when he shifted positions, he did lose some of the force, though not a lot. Even at the end, he was still trying to take me outwards and downwards at an angle away from me. Without using the "structure", I would have gone down. Again, it's hard to convey in video. But, at least it was enough to get some interesting conversation going. Thanks for that!

And like I mentioned to William, I should be in San Diego in November. If anyone wants to get together, I'd be up for it. It's a work trip ... but I'm sure I'll still have evenings free sometime.

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:05 PM   #108
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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But, Brian was putting in a decent amount of force trying to take me down. At times, when he shifted positions, he did lose some of the force, though not a lot.
I know you posted the video more to show what you were doing as uke. But my first thought when I was watching was also that the way tori was putting in force was also helping you to ground (or something, I don't know what I should call it). For the rest, nice video. Thanks for letting us see it!

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Old 07-10-2008, 03:01 PM   #109
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I think most Aikido folks either get trapped in the first way you talked about, or try to do the third way without the proper foundational training to actually make it work. In order to make it appear like what they think is happening, they start tanking and then never get the real feedback they need to get where they want to go.
AMEN to that.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:05 PM   #110
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
....But my first thought when I was watching was also that the way tori was putting in force was also helping you to ground
That's what I was trying to say.

In my experience, in the application of force which is intended to "drop" a person, sometimes it actually grounds them, especially if the connection to center isn't.... solid, or whatever, i.e., it's more peripheral.

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Old 07-10-2008, 04:30 PM   #111
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Again, thanks for posting the vids and discussing them. It is most helpful in the communication process! Nothing to add right now.

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Old 07-10-2008, 05:00 PM   #112
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
That's what I was trying to say.

In my experience, in the application of force which is intended to "drop" a person, sometimes it actually grounds them, especially if the connection to center isn't.... solid, or whatever, i.e., it's more peripheral.
Yeah, after your reply, I understood that. I've experienced that, but never even thought about it when video taping. And after reviewing the vid, I can see where it could look like that. It didn't happen, though.

For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:13 PM   #113
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Yeah, after your reply, I understood that. I've experienced that, but never even thought about it when video taping. And after reviewing the vid, I can see where it could look like that. It didn't happen, though.

For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.

Mark
You might consider this...
The pinky toe hole is not there unless the COG has traveled in that direction. In the video, even though he is on one foot, his COG is well protected (structure). That is simply great work on his part.

The other triangulation hole to the rear was not there either.
Even on one foot, you can create a "potential base" that covers many of the throwing angles and holes on both sides of the body.
Perhaps this is the result of what you are calling the "six directions"? Not an exclusive concept but a really good one.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:53 PM   #114
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Yeah, after your reply, I understood that. I've experienced that, but never even thought about it when video taping. And after reviewing the vid, I can see where it could look like that. It didn't happen, though.

For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.

Mark
I Can see that. My impression of Nage is that he is focusing on you, not on his center or movements,therefore giving you top dog position, rather than moving on a line to the point where he should go; with or without your approval.
He isn't moving concisely/independently within principles and lines.

In couch psychology jargon;" it's appears a little co-dependent".

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-10-2008 at 08:56 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:20 PM   #115
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Well, I've got something to add!

Chris and Jeremy, they're not Yanagi guys but they play them on TV . . .

OK, I'll shut up . . . sorry . . . not really though . . .

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Old 07-10-2008, 09:46 PM   #116
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Well, I've got something to add!

Chris and Jeremy, they're not Yanagi guys but they play them on TV . . .

OK, I'll shut up . . . sorry . . . not really though . . .
in the Yanagi clans I think only John Clodig wears the black "Darth Vader" Gi.

Ok, Its late and I'm getting goofy too.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 07-10-2008 at 09:52 PM. Reason: mispelling
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:50 PM   #117
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

@Mark,

Thanks for your reply. I generally agree with what you said, but I wanted to highlight this bit as it pertains to the topic at hand.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
When we both have structure going and we try something like this, it's pretty much a stand still. Whoever can break the other's structure first typically gets into a better position. In our case, it causes the other person to take a step that he didn't want to take. That creates openings. Unfortunately, being nearly the same level, it's very hard to take advantage of those openings.
I think this is fundamental, and possibly, the most overlooked aspect of any martial art. It's never about the technique, although the "how to make it work" does involve some "technique" - if that makes sense. The 2 basic premises of any given "technique", I believe which should be reinforced are: (1) maintain your own structure while (2) attempting to break the other person's structure.

Chris' very excellent video (last technique), when he didn't botch it, is a clear example of both - the slight body drift being sufficient to draw Jeremy off-balance. Obviously, trying to do (1) & (2) whilst under pressure and in a dynamic format is difficult.....

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
One important thing I'd note, overall, is that 1 year and 3 months ago, I wouldn't have been able to do any of this. This is progress made in just that time frame. And I consider it to be very, very basic structure. But in terms of how that structure is fitting into aikido ... it's making a world of difference.
and...
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.
Can you perhaps elucidate more on how you are negating this, and in light of this video, how you are able to negate/minimize the inherent structural weaknesses of one's physiology?

Ignatius
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:32 AM   #118
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I Can see that. My impression of Nage is that he is focusing on you, not on his center or movements,therefore giving you top dog position, rather than moving on a line to the point where he should go; with or without your approval.
He isn't moving concisely/independently within principles and lines.

In couch psychology jargon;" it's appears a little co-dependent".
Hi Jennifer,

One of the reasons why it seems that he isn't moving or focusing like that is because of my structure. It's a little hard to do. Take a look at this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVCZf53XIE0

Brian is pushing but not really getting anywhere. If you apply that concept to the kote gaeshi attempt, you can see that even though he's trying to move or focus correctly, it really isn't working and he's having to continually readjust because of my structure. And that's the part where video can not show anything. At that point, it has to be felt.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:40 AM   #119
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
So my point is simple.
When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Is there a pressure point?
Sorry to come to this party late. Perhaps someone else has already given similar feedback, there are far to many posts to catch up now, so I will do a 'driveby' post.

Dalen,
When doing Japanese style joint locks two of the primary things to consider are posture and balance.....for both uke and tori. Tori has the greatest chance of success when applying a joint lock that correctly matches the posture and balance of uke while maintaining his own solid posture and balance. So, so, so often we see tori's that attempt to disturb or break uke's posture and balance via the joint lock itself. Frankly this is wrong. The joint lock exploits uke's posture/balance which is disturbed via the setup of the technique or uke's own movement.

When one thinks this way in randori techniques start to 'just happen' as tori stops trying to impose his will on uke and simply takes advantage to the opportunities that uke is presenting. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is to the rear and BAM it works easily. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a forward posture disturbance when uke is forward and 'OUCH'....'BAM'. The reverse is also true. Apply a joint lock that works best on rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is forward and now you wrestle. Sure you can try hitting him in the nose to change the posture, that may or may not work, the point being that if you have to do this after you attempt the lock it is a clear indication that the set up and technique selection did not match the reality of uke's posture/balance.

As for putting the hand in the correct position remember that 'kote' means forearm and that this technique comes from old battlefield techniques where the opponents wore armor. Hence they did not turn the wrist, they turned the forearm. FYI, when a warrior on the field was reduced to attempting such a thing he was not having a good day as he was probably weaponless and about to die.

From a learning perspective it is important to understand that kote gaeshi is effective because of the rotation of the forearm in relation to the body and the body's current posture. Stand straight and simulate losing your balance backwards. How do you attempt to recover/regain your balance? Initially how do your arms windmill? What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now do the same but losing and struggling to maintain posture/balance forward. What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now compare these positions to joint locks.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:17 AM   #120
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post

I think this is fundamental, and possibly, the most overlooked aspect of any martial art. It's never about the technique, although the "how to make it work" does involve some "technique" - if that makes sense. The 2 basic premises of any given "technique", I believe which should be reinforced are: (1) maintain your own structure while (2) attempting to break the other person's structure.

Chris' very excellent video (last technique), when he didn't botch it, is a clear example of both - the slight body drift being sufficient to draw Jeremy off-balance. Obviously, trying to do (1) & (2) whilst under pressure and in a dynamic format is difficult.....
Yeah, and that last part is very true. Under pressure and in dynamic is very difficult.

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
and...
Can you perhaps elucidate more on how you are negating this, and in light of this video, how you are able to negate/minimize the inherent structural weaknesses of one's physiology?
Don Angier's explanation at the beginning of the vid touches on kote gaeshi going into uke and triangulating it.

Well, if you look at the first vid I posted, about 17-18, Brian tries to do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXp_sl2VXTk

The reason it doesn't work as nicely as Don Angier's demonstration is because:

1. Don Angier is demonstrating. Uke isn't trying to mess that up.

2. I'm trying to stay as off balance, physically, as I can to illustrate the concept. So, my forearm isn't parallel because I'm bent over.

3. Brian hits my structure and gets redirected (not what he wanted to do) outwards. So, at 20, he's still trying to get kote gaeshi, only out over my pinky toe.

The interesting thing is that I'm leaned over and my body isn't in a nice line from head to left foot. I'm broken and shouldn't have a lot of power. My arm is outstretched. Again, shouldn't have much power. And my arm is out to my side. Shouldn't have much power. In aikido, we always want a correct posture with hands in front of our center for "power". Brian is torquing out and downwards. And Brian outweighs me by about 80 pounds.

Yet, Brian gets popped forward so much that he's forced to roll out of it. And notice my hand at about 22. It pretty much drops to my side. It wasn't muscle that drove the movement. Surprised me as much as Brian, I think.

Mark
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:46 AM   #121
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Hi Jennifer,

One of the reasons why it seems that he isn't moving or focusing like that is because of my structure. It's a little hard to do. Take a look at this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVCZf53XIE0

Brian is pushing but not really getting anywhere. If you apply that concept to the kote gaeshi attempt, you can see that even though he's trying to move or focus correctly, it really isn't working and he's having to continually readjust because of my structure. And that's the part where video can not show anything. At that point, it has to be felt.

Thanks,
Mark
Thanks for the explanation and the video ( sorry i forgot to say thanks B4 ). I accept that it has to be felt .I know how much Video leaves to be desired in terms of capturing essence and how much it puts you out there. I respect you for posting it( plus I now know what you look like. how fun)

From the 'west coast style' Strictly visually, based on what I see: What I would suggest to my students, if I was correcting for the future, would be for nage to collapse your hand inward, rather than push, and move uprightly to the 3rd point while drawing toward himself.Then his posture wouldn't be so 'giving'. A funny skill to play with, take it or leave it, when operating the pinky toe, exploit the pinky finger in the KG spiral of the hand).

Psychologically, his eyes are checking back in with you, too, which compromises his alignment.

Like you said, it's best to feel this stuff personally,( but is sure fun to talk about )and it looks like you'd be a fun training date. I look forward to checking out your stuff someday in person.

Thanks Again,
Jen

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Old 07-11-2008, 09:49 AM   #122
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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in the Yanagi clans I think only John Clodig wears the black "Darth Vader" Gi.

Ok, Its late and I'm getting goofy too.
No, Rich Elias has frequently been seen in a fetching black ensemble...

And Jer and I are wearing a deep indigo. Both color choices are very slimming, and I need all the slimming I can get.

...that is all...

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Old 07-11-2008, 10:01 AM   #123
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Not to come empty-handed, as it were, here is a really great autobiographical article by Don Angier.
http://www.bugei.com/angier.html

so much to learn.......

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:02 AM   #124
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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No, Rich Elias has frequently been seen in a fetching black ensemble...

And Jer and I are wearing a deep indigo. Both color choices are very slimming, and I need all the slimming I can get.

...that is all...
I thought the Yoshida-ha guys wore black and gray.

Anyhoose, you look "styling" and I enjoyed your movement...

An amalgum of many principles used well in kata.

Question, "do you make the movements smaller or change the sequence when in rondori?
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:26 AM   #125
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Sorry to come to this party late. Perhaps someone else has already given similar feedback, there are far to many posts to catch up now, so I will do a 'driveby' post.

Dalen,
When doing Japanese style joint locks two of the primary things to consider are posture and balance.....for both uke and tori. Tori has the greatest chance of success when applying a joint lock that correctly matches the posture and balance of uke while maintaining his own solid posture and balance. So, so, so often we see tori's that attempt to disturb or break uke's posture and balance via the joint lock itself. Frankly this is wrong. The joint lock exploits uke's posture/balance which is disturbed via the setup of the technique or uke's own movement.

When one thinks this way in randori techniques start to 'just happen' as tori stops trying to impose his will on uke and simply takes advantage to the opportunities that uke is presenting. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is to the rear and BAM it works easily. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a forward posture disturbance when uke is forward and 'OUCH'....'BAM'. The reverse is also true. Apply a joint lock that works best on rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is forward and now you wrestle. Sure you can try hitting him in the nose to change the posture, that may or may not work, the point being that if you have to do this after you attempt the lock it is a clear indication that the set up and technique selection did not match the reality of uke's posture/balance.

As for putting the hand in the correct position remember that 'kote' means forearm and that this technique comes from old battlefield techniques where the opponents wore armor. Hence they did not turn the wrist, they turned the forearm. FYI, when a warrior on the field was reduced to attempting such a thing he was not having a good day as he was probably weaponless and about to die.

From a learning perspective it is important to understand that kote gaeshi is effective because of the rotation of the forearm in relation to the body and the body's current posture. Stand straight and simulate losing your balance backwards. How do you attempt to recover/regain your balance? Initially how do your arms windmill? What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now do the same but losing and struggling to maintain posture/balance forward. What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now compare these positions to joint locks.

Take care,

Mark J.
Thanks Mark. The "technical" key for us is not the wrist. It is position note that both Chris and Don A enter letting Uke's fist pass their center while connecting with his center.

We don't stop the tsuki at all... it passes... There is an Atemi (if needed) to unbalance... a connection, and then a wash of the arm.

A key difference is that

Nage does not grab per se and certainly does not "reach over Uke's arm to grab the wrist (unless you want Uke to reverse the technique on you) . And like you mention and Chris shows you float your center out just a bit...Simultaneously putting an out twist to Uke's forearm ( with a similar feel to drawing your sword) keeping pressure on Uke's elbow. For KG you MUST have control of Uke's elbow and forearm and just his wrist per se. If done properly Uke "follows his fingers" and his body weight centers on his wrist/forearm... Wiith a slight turn of your hips his "structure" ceases to be and Uke will drop himself. When done properly it's Uke's own weight plus momentum that makes KG work. I am just there to help him fall.

Thanks again for the post.

William Hazen
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