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Old 05-29-2008, 04:43 PM   #51
Peter Chenier
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Hi all, just from my limited point of view (and few years of karate) kotegaeshi is an absolute smorgasbord of nasty opportunity when it comes to atemi. Everything from head butts, hook punches, empi strikes, and ankle sweeps. I my humble opinion freezing up hard and zeroing in focus on keeping your wrist and arm tight is almost suicidal from Ukes perspective.
Ps I have been on the wrong end of just such atemi by mistake. I've learned to move quickly
Cheers
All
peter
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Old 05-30-2008, 06:26 AM   #52
JamesC
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I just learned Kote Gaeshi in class last week. It's a great technique when executed properly.

Luckily for me I had a 1st kyu working with me. I absolutely loved the fact that he did NOT fall down when he didn't need to. He politely critiqued my technique. He didn't actually resist, he just made sure that I was properly executing.

Very grateful for that.
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:30 PM   #53
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Peter Chenier wrote: View Post
Hi all, just from my limited point of view (and few years of karate) kotegaeshi is an absolute smorgasbord of nasty opportunity when it comes to atemi. Everything from head butts, hook punches, empi strikes, and ankle sweeps. I my humble opinion freezing up hard and zeroing in focus on keeping your wrist and arm tight is almost suicidal from Ukes perspective.
Ps I have been on the wrong end of just such atemi by mistake. I've learned to move quickly
Cheers
All
peter
The only thing is Im trying to master, or rather become fluid with the technique so that Im not dependent on Atemi. - i.e., Atemi is like a surprise that I choose to use as a side but dont have to.

But then again, in some scenarios where uke knows the move already, which in a fight would not be real, then you are limited in possibilities, so it would see,

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:27 PM   #54
Ketsan
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Peter Chenier wrote: View Post
Hi all, just from my limited point of view (and few years of karate) kotegaeshi is an absolute smorgasbord of nasty opportunity when it comes to atemi. Everything from head butts, hook punches, empi strikes, and ankle sweeps. I my humble opinion freezing up hard and zeroing in focus on keeping your wrist and arm tight is almost suicidal from Ukes perspective.
Ps I have been on the wrong end of just such atemi by mistake. I've learned to move quickly
Cheers
All
peter
From my understanding the technique is predicated on uke doing just this as the intention of Kote Gaeshi is to break their wrist rather than throw them.
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:07 PM   #55
rob_liberti
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

If you try to break my wrist, I'll certainly break your ribs. It's almost automatic. In a fight for your life, that's a terrible trade - and it's doubtful you'll get the wrist break.

Rob
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:29 AM   #56
Ketsan
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If you try to break my wrist, I'll certainly break your ribs. It's almost automatic. In a fight for your life, that's a terrible trade - and it's doubtful you'll get the wrist break.

Rob
As I said in the orginal post the whole thing is predicated on them trying to maintain their posture and being as static as possible to resist being thrown. If you can get yourself into a position to lock the wrist up smacking it hard enough to break shouldn't be an issue.
And if they're being static and resisting they've handed over the iniative, you should be able to get your follow up in before they can effectively respond.
Anywho my only point was that resistance in techniques is bad in the dojo but useful in an actual situation.
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:22 AM   #57
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I think that you need to switch up the angles if it is not working and your uke is resisting..use his resistance , kotegaeshi is one of the most effective Aikido techniques. There is no concrete form, it will work provided the angles are established.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:29 AM   #58
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
I think that you need to switch up the angles if it is not working and your uke is resisting..use his resistance , kotegaeshi is one of the most effective Aikido techniques. There is no concrete form, it will work provided the angles are established.
If uke's structure is better, no angle will change the outcome -- it won't work. Resistance is for those who don't have good structure, and if they don't have good structure, then kotegaeshi will work. Changing an angle is just jujutsu. yeah, it'll work for those resisting (see above sentence). But come into contact with someone who has structure and angles don't matter.

Reread Ellis Amdur's post here on AikiWeb about Tomiki holding his hand out to judo players. No amount of angles will work on someone who has structure, or as some people call it -- aiki.

Want to make kotegaeshi work with resistance -- work on having better structure/aiki.
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:45 AM   #59
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I should have explained myself better, let us go munetsuki kotegaeshi and we have resistance (as we apply the wrist tweak) is it fair to say that switching nages posture and structure back to where the waza began (like rewind) and applying the kotegaeshi (from that angle) would not be realistic or effective from an Ooya henka point of view? I think that would be pretty smooth and is practiced in our dojo regularly.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:03 AM   #60
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
I should have explained myself better, let us go munetsuki kotegaeshi and we have resistance (as we apply the wrist tweak) is it fair to say that switching nages posture and structure back to where the waza began (like rewind) and applying the kotegaeshi (from that angle) would not be realistic or effective from an Ooya henka point of view? I think that would be pretty smooth and is practiced in our dojo regularly.
Well, if your aiki is better, it really doesn't matter where you place uke. If you have better aiki, then even if you switch nage's posture and structure back to where the waza began, you're still going to get kotegaeshi.

On the other hand, if uke's aiki is better, then you can have uke to the side, out over one foot with the other foot in the air, arm stretched, wrist bent, and you will never get kotegaeshi to work.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:58 PM   #61
Aikibu
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Well, if your aiki is better, it really doesn't matter where you place uke. If you have better aiki, then even if you switch nage's posture and structure back to where the waza began, you're still going to get kotegaeshi.

On the other hand, if uke's aiki is better, then you can have uke to the side, out over one foot with the other foot in the air, arm stretched, wrist bent, and you will never get kotegaeshi to work.
I have no doubt that "Aiki" as expressed by Uke can be very powerful in stopping the execution of any technique however lets just make sure that we're clear about something (at least in my mind).... KG will not work under most circumstances unless Uke commits fully to the attack.... At any point if Nage allows Uke to control the movement then there is no irimi and KG "ceases to be"

So lets further define "resistance " by what it is not...

I can't tell you how many times someone

A. thinks grabbing my wrist is something more than a very basic training tool and thus "Aikido does not work".
B. stands there with a "strong" center holding my wrist expecting me to move and thus "Aikido does not work"

Not to get off the subject too much but the reason some Dojo's do not understand "aliveness" training is because their Ukemi sucks and I think that is a legitimate complaint.

Not that we practice Alive Ukemi all the time but unless you're willing to go full speed under duress with committed attacks in practice every once in a while then of course KG or any technique will suck because you'll simply never experience how to use them in 'real" conditions....Chris Hein's experimental vids kind of prove this point.

Another point I'd like to make about Aikido is why KG will never work in a MMA or prolonged engagement...

In one word...Sweat...

A technique like KG would be a rarity under duress/resistance unless it's used like it's supposed to be. At the very outset of a conflict in Irimi as a conflict ending technique. You're just not going to pull it off otherwise IMO.

Let me put it this way...It's not on my list of "Money Moves" but it's very important to practice because of all the basic elements of Aikido "inside" the expression of KG.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-07-2008 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Spelling Grammer
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Old 07-07-2008, 02:26 PM   #62
tuturuhan
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Creating the Opening

When an opponent grabs your hand, pulling toward him, the "natural reaction" is to pull away.

When we bring a "new student" into our dojo we teach him to "go with the force". We train him to be compliant. Likewise, we send our children to "public school" to be compliant with the rules and regulations of society. We teach our children to become law abiding citizens and society progresses with seeming "mechanic".

When "someone" resists the rules, he is crushed by the "majority police" and banned as an outsider. He is not being compliant to the rules of the dojo. This is staying within the box.

Breaking out of the box, means testing the Sensei with resistance. The really good Sensei incorporates the resistance by "fluidly adapting" and changing the resistance back into compliance. He creates the opening...

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:00 PM   #63
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Creating the Opening

When we bring a "new student" into our dojo we teach him to "go with the force". We train him to be compliant...
The really good Sensei incorporates the resistance by "fluidly adapting" and changing the resistance back into compliance. He creates the opening...
I'm hardly an expert, and I might be missing your point, but my understanding is that openings are found, not made. We can lead aite into providing an opening, but it's much like the proverbial horse and water. The premise behind adopting stances, i think, has to do with this idea.
I would also say that when you test your sensei by resisting the initial movement and the sensei then adapts, he's not creating the opening, he's finding a new opening through which to move you into the shape he was originally looking for so he can continue with the rest of the movement he's trying to teach (assuming he doesn't just do something completely different). As far as i can tell, once you have exploited an opening, you can then more or less move uke how you want because their structure is compromised.
As it relates to doing any particular technique, I think it's critical to realize that uke's structure should already be compromised. At first contact it should have begun to erode.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-07-2008, 08:00 PM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

William Hazen wrote:

Quote:
Not to get off the subject too much but the reason some Dojo's do not understand "aliveness" training is because their Ukemi sucks and I think that is a legitimate complaint.
I agree.

For me KG is not so much about the technique as it is about learning more about the relationship between uke and nage and how to do it correctly. It ain't about the wrist, and it ain't about the big sweeping circle and being faster than nage that makes it work with a good uke.

I can tell alot about someones experience level by doing KG with them from both uke and nage's side.

I also don't believe in compliance on uke's part. Correct ukemi, imo, does not require compliance...it requires you to maintain integrity all the way through. It is up to nage to disrupt that integrity with aiki along the way. You can protect yourself, be non-compliant, and still be safe if you are doing things correctly.

Beginners, yes, need to slow down and go much, much slower and much, much more methodical, cooperative...yes. Compliance...no....I believe there is a difference.

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Old 07-07-2008, 08:25 PM   #65
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I also don't believe in compliance on uke's part. Correct ukemi, imo, does not require compliance...it requires you to maintain integrity all the way through. It is up to nage to disrupt that integrity with aiki along the way. You can protect yourself, be non-compliant, and still be safe if you are doing things correctly.

Beginners, yes, need to slow down and go much, much slower and much, much more methodical, cooperative...yes. Compliance...no....I believe there is a difference.
I meant to say that!
Quote:
It ain't about the wrist, and it ain't about the big sweeping circle and being faster than nage that makes it work with a good uke.
Part of the problem with kotegaeshi problems that I've seen is that people are thinking too much about the wrist and not taking the whole body into account. Also, it can be a pretty tight circle too though right?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-07-2008 at 08:30 PM.

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Old 07-07-2008, 08:28 PM   #66
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

[quote=Kevin Leavitt;210478]William Hazen wrote:

I agree.

For me KG is not so much about the technique as it is about learning more about the relationship between uke and nage and how to do it correctly. It ain't about the wrist, and it ain't about the big sweeping circle and being faster than nage that makes it work with a good uke........need to slow down and go much, much slower and much, much more methodical, cooperative...yes. Compliance...no....I believe there is a difference.[/Quote

Hi Kevin,
I agree. In fact, when a partner is compliant as you have defined it, KG or any technique can be performed slowly and principles can be isolated and perfected.

Regarding KG, I would define the technique as a slight torsion of the radial and ulna until the humerous conntects to the scapula. The bones in the wrist are too loose to depend on and pain compliance is not really the best way to obtain kuzushi.
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Old 07-07-2008, 08:37 PM   #67
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm hardly an expert, and I might be missing your point, but my understanding is that openings are found, not made. We can lead aite into providing an opening, but it's much like the proverbial horse and water. The premise behind adopting stances, i think, has to do with this idea.
I would also say that when you test your sensei by resisting the initial movement and the sensei then adapts, he's not creating the opening, he's finding a new opening through which to move you into the shape he was originally looking for so he can continue with the rest of the movement he's trying to teach (assuming he doesn't just do something completely different). As far as i can tell, once you have exploited an opening, you can then more or less move uke how you want because their structure is compromised.
As it relates to doing any particular technique, I think it's critical to realize that uke's structure should already be compromised. At first contact it should have begun to erode.
A well expressed post,Matt.

At a certain point I went from finding and exploiting openings to creating them also.So I understand Sifu Joe's verbage above.This connects to aspects of Takemusu Aiki, in my lexicon. It springs from experiencing openings in the manner that you described above and then they are taken to another level. How you get there is a matter of personal training.

As an uke, I am distinctly interested in connecting integrously so I might be as fully engaged as possible while also being available to learn from the (creative forces of the) techniques themselves. which constitutes the greatest kind of "receiving" I have,well, received.
Still, there is a lot to be explored; luckily.
As for testing sensei with resistance, I expect to be shown an opening somewhere a little south of my tail bone if I am arrogant or tactless in my choice of when to 'test' sensei. In other words, when my spirit/mind is incorrect it gets crumbled. But mostly, I find, i don't hear the lesson being given when i'm roughing it up when i ought to be listening.Not that anyone else would do such a thing. That is my own experience. Buyer be aware.
Best,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-07-2008 at 08:46 PM.

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Old 07-07-2008, 08:47 PM   #68
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
At a certain point I went from finding and exploiting openings to creating them also.Best,
Jen
Thanks Jen,
As usual, I'll have to defer to greater experience.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-07-2008, 08:55 PM   #69
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Chris, cooperative...not compliant. Compliant to me means you are going with the technique. Cooperative implies that you are matching speed, but are not necessarily going with the technique (compliance).

Matthew, yes, you can be very, very tight with KG. Connecting in on the center of uke you can establish kuzushi without the need for pain. If uke continues to resist, moving your body back into his puts a tremendous amount of force in on his core and he is going down. I don't so much care about the arm or the wrist. I will keep ahold of it when doing weapons stuff lthough so I have control of it.

The whole "break the wrist and walk away, just break the wrist and walk away" is always there though and nice to have, but aiki wise I don't, as others think it is what it is all about, and frankly I have not found it to work well, I ain't that fast.

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Old 07-07-2008, 09:03 PM   #70
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Thanks Jen,
As usual, I'll have to defer to greater experience.
Thank you for your kindness.
I would say, if I may,to defer to the greater mystery of what hasn't been learned yet.
Just like you, and all in my aikido family, I'm a work in progress and I enjoy sharing my training from the perspective of having had my mind blown and changed so many times that I simply know there is a whole lot more out there than I even see today. Your concepts are sound as far as I can tell and I would guess your feet are firmly on the ground from the great underpinnings of your thoughts . There is just so much open road ahead for all of us to explore together. And training is such a wonderful Way.

one more thought:
There is a biblical scripture in Timothy that says (depending on your edition)
Trust in Jehovah with all of your heart
Do not lean upon your own understanding
In all ways take notice of him
And he himself wil make your path straight.

I wack this a little in my own head to say:

Trust in training (nature) with all of your heart
do not lean upon your own understanding
in all ways take notice of it's works
and training(nature) itself will make your path straight.

Thanks for your kind respect.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:11 PM   #71
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Thank you for your kindness.
My pleasure. We educators (I'm only an educator wannabe at this point) have to stick together.
Quote:
I would say, if I may,to defer to the greater mystery of what hasn't been learned yet.
I really like this part! It speaks to a big part of my own raison d'etre, if I may get a bit French. And I agree sharing what we each experience of our training is a pretty cool thing. I know this kind of forum is no substitute for hitting the mat, but it does offer so much food for thought.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 07-09-2008, 04:22 PM   #72
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Absorb, Adapt, Subtract and Always Utility

I no longer use a slide rule, an cassette deck or a flying spinning hook kick. Though, I always go back to carrying a big stick.

A wrist or elbow lock:

1. Standing vertically (self)
2. Using push hands (two man)
3. Using footwook (to change locations, multiple attack)
4. Using the plate glass window (using objects)
5. Using the wall (to imprison vertically)
6. Using the ground (to imprison to employ gravity horizontally)

No matter the name, the style, the linage, the teacher, on the ground, in the air, while kicking and punching…or in using "It"...it is still a wrist/elbow technique.

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:03 PM   #73
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
No matter the name, the style, the linage, the teacher, on the ground, in the air, while kicking and punching…or in using "It"...it is still a wrist/elbow technique.
One thing that I have found in the years I have been teaching Aikido is that there are many, many different arts that fall under the same umbrella name. Although semantically perhaps it's true, in real terms, in my "style" the above statement really is not true, odd as that may seem to some (to some not.) It (the wrist etc.) really is a way of simply allowing kuzushi to happen, which is what all Aikido techniques are in my approach. While tsukuri (position etc.) can be an important aspect of it at times, it is not completely dependent on it. Nor is the sole use of the wrist/elbow, by any means.

I have found many differences in styes over the years, and have learned from all of them (usually), and have come to the conclusion that most people have different inclinations as to how and why Aikido works for them. In my world, it really is -all- dependant on.... I hesitate to say it.... inner skills of Ki, Aiki, and Musubi, that get translated into the physical interaction. It is never about the technique itself for me.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:02 PM   #74
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Using a Little bit of "It"...whether striking or wrist its all the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw6ctjlo

Please note that some have claimed the ability to "strike" and knock their opponents across the room and into walls...I certainly believe it is possible.

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:51 PM   #75
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Okay, so I decided to play around some with kote gaeshi. Nothing spectacular. But I video taped it and put it on YouTube. (Actually, there's two vids but the other one is still uploading).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXp_sl2VXTk

So, in this vid, we start from static, but I purposefully put myself off balance and I try to stay that way while nage (Brian) tries to complete kote gaeshi in some manner by moving around me.

Brian is putting a good bit into trying to take me down, but not going as far as jumping on my outstretched hand.

At the end, I sort of just uncoiled the internal energy and it caused Brian to take a forward roll -- something neither of us had expected to happen.

Anyway, enjoy my video debut.

Mark
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