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Old 05-14-2008, 12:24 PM   #26
dalen7
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: View Post
just twist a little more the hips or (I found out this for me in my iriminage) sometimes it is enough just lower more the knees.
That is something I have been told - to move my hips and draw the power from there - It doesnt really come natural to me yet...I still rely on upper body strength it seems.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-14-2008, 01:48 PM   #27
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hmm... When I encounter arm resistance of that sort in kotegaeshi, I find it's much easier to just change the technique, perhaps to something like rokkyo (hijikime osae, wakigatame).

-- Jun
Best advice.

If you think of powering through stiffness you are not learning Aikido, you are learning to push through resistance. Ideally you should stay fluid and take the next opening they offer you. That being said, it's still really hard to do.

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Old 05-14-2008, 02:02 PM   #28
bkedelen
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Try this. Grasp the unbending wrist and walk toward your partner pressing their hand firmly into your chest, just below the sternum. Keeping a solid grip on your partner, turn slightly to the outside and do a standing breakfall. That ought to clear the problem right up.

Last edited by bkedelen : 05-14-2008 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 05-14-2008, 02:18 PM   #29
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Try this. Grasp the unbending wrist and walk toward your partner pressing their hand firmly into your chest, just below the sternum. Keeping a solid grip on your partner, turn slightly to the outside and do a standing breakfall. That ought to clear the problem right up.
thats a good one -
Im sure that would solve a thing or two.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-14-2008, 02:30 PM   #30
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Best advice.

If you think of powering through stiffness you are not learning Aikido, you are learning to push through resistance. Ideally you should stay fluid and take the next opening they offer you. That being said, it's still really hard to do.
True - part of the problem would appear to be mine in how I execute the technique.
- i.e. the lack of throwing Ukes balance...and ripping his thumb out. j/k

Seriously though, some good concepts have been presented in this thread which have made me re-think how I have been executing the technique...which of course I know needs improvement.

On the other hand, Ukes active 'stubborn' resistance to the technique is actually not how the Sensei wants us to train. Well, at least not those of us who havent even tested for our 5th kyu yet.

So in this case I like the last post which suggest doing a 'standing breakfall' - I know its not in the spirit of Aikido to do an eye for an eye. - or the whole world would be blind.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-14-2008 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:58 AM   #31
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Lori Snidow wrote: View Post
Wow - does your uke have any clue how easy it can be to get hurt if they don't know what they're doing?
I guess they don't. If you were to apply KG on the streets and the person got stiff, you may not get the throw off, and they may not fall, but the wrist is going to get torn to pieces and they'll be in a great deal of pain.

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Old 05-15-2008, 09:18 PM   #32
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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That is something I have been told - to move my hips and draw the power from there - It doesnt really come natural to me yet...I still rely on upper body strength it seems.
Uh.... no... Power comes from the feet/ground, up the rear leg, through the tanden and into your hands...

Mechanically, kote gaeshi works by hyperdorsiflexion and hypersupination of the wrist. This means folding the wrist towards AND to the outside of the elbow crease.

Technically speaking, folding the wrist/fingers toward the elbow crease and down, as some have suggested as an alternative, is kote oroshi (wrist drop), which is a different technique....

The wrist is an inherently weak structure, as the distal radial-ulna joint is not an articulated joint, but "suspended" by ligaments and cartilage... in particular, the triangular fibrocartilage complex (TFCC).

Basically, you want to traumatize the TFCC and cause a sublaxation of the ulna styloid process or perilunate dislocation... that is... if your intent is to pull an Aunty Jack on uke for being uncooperative... but really there is no need to if you understand how the technique is designed to work, and how to apply it statically first.

Sometimes a slight shift of body angle and direction of applied power is all it takes.... but without seeing what you're doing/not doing, it is difficult to recommend any definitive solution - that's what your Sensei is there for. I would suggest that if you are meeting with resistance, you may wish to consider looking at either "creating a base" (perhaps moving it further up to the elbow - someone mentioned "brushing the elbow"...), OR taking uke beyond the structural limit of their power... or both.... as in... the wrist bone's connected to the elbow bone... is connected to the foot bone...

Last edited by eyrie : 05-15-2008 at 09:30 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:05 AM   #33
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Best advice.

If you think of powering through stiffness you are not learning Aikido, you are learning to push through resistance. Ideally you should stay fluid and take the next opening they offer you. That being said, it's still really hard to do.
Yes. Patience, young padawan.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:45 PM   #34
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

thanks everyone for your input - i have learned quite a bit from everyones post the last 2 pages!

peace

dAlen
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:27 PM   #35
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Here are the levels I progressed through in my kotegaeshi experience.

At a totally low level - crank the wrist level - the main thing to know is to cover your thumb with the palm of your hand. It adds power by lining you up structurally.

Next, still at low level. If you want to effect someone's center and you are totally new, the thing to work towards is to get them moving in 3 dimensions. For instance:
- arm away from them, down, and in toward you for kaitenage
- arm going backward towards them, down, and in toward you for kotegaeshi.

I've been doing this long enough that if you try pretty much any of the suggested methods it won't work. However, the notable exception of the solution posed by Benjamin Edelen (which was halarious!!!) I'll take ukemi for that!. Under most normal amount of pressure, my wrist just doesn't feel pain there anymore and if you put all of your attention on tying to break my wrist I'm not going to stand there, I'm going to to hit you in the ribs and probably break them.

Next level past the "wrist crank" is to think of it in terms of drawing the arm out away from uke's center, turning, and driving their arm straight back into their center - and just at the last moment when it is about to crash their elbow back into their hips, you change the direction from where you are holding their wrist area like you are using a rutter on a boat so their arm goes back behind them. The issue here is that you have to get your body into thier blind spot (shikaku) and while all of that is going on physically, you have to be setting your intention as if you are cutting/slicing through their center. (This part alludes most and I'm still working on it to various degrees.)

In my opinion, the next level of this you really have to establish verticality. I find it an easy way to break into what Ignatius Teo wrote about "Power comes from the feet/ground, up the rear leg, through the tanden and into your hands..." The way I think is easiest to grasp and make progress is to practice breaking it down by doing things like body down (bend knees) with arms starting to go down and then while arms continue to go down on them your body starts going back up (kind of like imagine you are in a manhole and using your arms to lift you up). Establish that (it will not work on someone super stable, but it works very well in normal motion). Once you get them that way, you can spin behind them (Tohei sensei style) - as you spin you will find that you naturally extend their arm out away from their center as I described above, and then as you continue them and you stop and convert your spin the other direction - that they start drawing in to you, and for the wrist turn, you can actually just repeat the body down/arms start down then body up/arms continue down - while stepping through - so your bobdy movement does it all and you can completely avoid "wristy/twisty". You should be able to do it with that hand I was initially describing as covering your thumb instead making a "T" with uke's hand. As they drop you can actually pull back up on their wrist to give them a nice "whip snap" to the ground before you roll them for the pin.

The NEXT level, I find you need to practice a total body weight shift forward. You have to line up so that when you move foward all of your weight falls and cleaning gets expressed through your arms into uke's completely stable and 100% unwilling to move extended arm. I can show this, but it's a bit difficult to describe. You can get the most stable people to move this way, and then fall into what was described earlier.

The next level, through most of all of it out. Totally develop true verticality through spinal alignment, and various crosslines of intention which is super difficult to get right! Be flowing up ward and downward at the same time. When you touch the person by turning around your spine and not moving your hips (or nose initially) but just your trunk, and the person feels all of those "soft power" forces simply drop your arm through their center and they'll take ukemi. Good luck with that one!

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 05-16-2008 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 05-17-2008, 10:38 AM   #36
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

In my experience, one can look at a technique like Kotegaeshi in three ways: a joint lock, a skeletal lock, or a way of connecting to Uke's center and allowing them to lose their balance.

As a joint lock, it is mostly done by twisting or manipulating the wrist to force the person either down or into a forward roll. it can be countered the most easily, as strength can be used to freeze the wrist, etc. Kuzushi usually comes from either pain or potential pain. If completed, this can cause injury from the torque, and it is usually done with muscle and takes a lot of force. This is the least desirable.

As a skeletal lock, the focus is beyond just the wrist, and a feeling for how to connect all the way to Uke's center is necessary. Kuzushi comes from a lock-up from wrist to hips, and is a more subtle skill, with less pain and muscle involved. It can often still be countered by either stiffening the wrist, or by "pushing" one's hand/wrist forward and moving into the technique with the whole body, which makes it harder to get the whole body locked up. This approach to Kotegaeshi is more desirable to me than the first, since if it is done correctly, there is less or no pain involved, and less possible injury to the wrist.

The third way I find to be the most subtle and desirable, as it is virtually impossible to counter if done correctly, and has virtually no potential for pain or injury. It doesn't particularly matter what Uke does, one simply connects hand to hand in the position of Kotegaeshi (Musubi), tracks Uke's movement from a safe place (Tsukuri), and by feeling for where their center can lose stability and be released to the ground (Kuzushi) Nage only need move their own center correctly and Uke will not be able to hold or regain their balance. Nage then simply Releases them and they fall. The more stiff Uke's wrist is in this case, the more resistance, in a sense the easier it is to achieve Kuzushi, because they are locking themselves up that much more. This a subtle skill though, and takes a while to get, because Nage isn't "doing something to Uke" so to speak, but "moving with them" and helping them lose their balance. They hardly feel anything. But that's the kind of Aikido I like the best.

Larry Novick
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Old 05-17-2008, 03:42 PM   #37
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
... But that's the kind of Aikido I like the best.
What other kind is there? Good explanation = on the same wavelength.

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Old 05-18-2008, 06:12 AM   #38
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
What other kind is there? Good explanation = on the same wavelength.
The only kinds are as follows:
- strength
- technique
- harmony (wa)
- michi

that's it...

It's easy to get lost in translation. To me when I think skeletal lock these days it has nothing to do with what that used to mean to me (usually it meant crank the wrist and hope for the best). Now I think using soft power how can I touch them above their waste (on their arm or wherever) and have them primarily effected in their legs - and the only way to do that is to get some kind of skeletal line up threw their body that they are just locked into. (This maybe makes a little more sense if you think iriminage - but kotegaeshi is basically the same thing in terms of this aspect). In a sense, that level is still all technique - but it's vary harmonious technique. Don't ask me about michi level. I'm stil working for harmony (but I think it is harmony within me - under pressure or not, and under pressue creating harmony outside me but that's more theory for me at this point!)

Rob
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:39 PM   #39
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Get to 90 degrees and behind position before compression of wrist. Take wrist back to Uke's centre to join and give Kuzushi, then lead to third point.

Rock
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:53 PM   #40
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

90 Degrees...hmmm sounds like a good concept for a DVD

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Old 05-26-2008, 02:05 AM   #41
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Unabashed plug for a training DVD? Sorry. It just came out. That is where my mind is these days I guess.

Rock
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:21 PM   #42
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Try this, some has been mentioned before but I will amplify. For best effect you should practice unbalancing your opponent. Everything is easier then. Resistance in one appendage is hard to concentrate on when uke's entire body is off balance. That said, if a wrist is tightened up that means the elbow is got a more or less rigid connection and once you can work the elbow, it connects to the shoulder and then the spine.

You must train yourself to turn your hips while keeping your hands (and uke's wrist in front of your center (in other words your arms do not move relative to your center). As you turn your hips and tension is thusly applied to uke's wrist, if you have positioned uke's forearms so that it is not extended relative the upper arm (there is a bend in uke's arm at the elbow), you will lock up the wrist and elbow. (Resistance actually helps this). Once the wrist and elbow lock up, as you continue to turn your hips, you will move the shoulder and entire body. Uke may not find that they have to flip over all the time, but they will not continue to stand. For greater effect as you turn your hips and the arms locks up, drop your hips vertically (your hands are in your center all this time). You will plant your uke. I've done this on 6'4" 270 lb cops. (Now in the spirit of full disclosure, unbalancing become very important when your uke is 4" and 80 lbs heavier than you),
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Old 05-26-2008, 03:05 PM   #43
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Don McConnell wrote: View Post
(Now in the spirit of full disclosure, unbalancing become very important when your uke is 4" and 80 lbs heavier than you),
It would seem some strength is needed as well.
Someone quite larger is likely to be more rooted in the ground, so to speak, - not saying this is always the case, but it reminds me of Princess Bride where the guy goes up against the giant and cant budge him. (Imagine trying Aikido on Andre the Giant.)

Thanks for the post, some good concepts in there.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 05-26-2008, 09:08 PM   #44
Don
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Nope. Strength not advised. You will delude yourself of what your abilities are or you will get frustrated. Folks bigger or stronger than you are your test of your aikido. Specifically your ability to perceive, blend with, and use their motion and energy. I can easily do kote Gaeshi on a 5'-6" 150 lb uke with little or no technique, because I am 6' and 200 lbs. But what does that prove? Not much. When I practice against my 6'-4" 270 lb police officer friend, pure strength is useless. I have to off-balance him. Now, even if he regains some centering, my objective with someone as large and strong as he is is to move him to a point where his center of mass is outside of his body or close to it by leading him into a position where his torso is forward or his hips. This is all accomplished by practicing blending (the real important part of the technique) over and over and over. Then locking up the wrist, elbow, arm, and spine are easy. Anyone can twist a wrist with little instruction. Doing it in a way that can be applied to opponents or varying size and that effects their entire body is what you are trying to figure out. Have fun in your search. Don't hurt anyone in the process.
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:25 AM   #45
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
It would seem some strength is needed as well.
Someone quite larger is likely to be more rooted in the ground, so to speak, - not saying this is always the case, but it reminds me of Princess Bride where the guy goes up against the giant and cant budge him. (Imagine trying Aikido on Andre the Giant.)

Thanks for the post, some good concepts in there.

Peace

dAlen
Hello
Assuming that we are talking of kote-geshi the ura with a tenkan at the start
You will have the problem you describe with anyone that strikes properly: I.e.: committed and stable (or in balance if you prefer).

With tenkan you gain position safely but If he is stable you will need to create the isolation.
People much better than me, can create that isolation with timing and nudging a bit of the stability away and use that advantage to keep head time wise.
At my level, trying to do that is a too much of being an about equal windows of opportunity for me and my opponent. (Call me old fashion but I do not like about even odds)

If your guy is being cheeky or you are practicing active resistance together (ie he know what is coming and wants to make it as hard as possible for you).
He may corkscrew his punch (ending with the back of the fist upwards.
If you had that to being stable, that is going to make you life difficult.
He is already set against the technique before you start. he his already in a position to counter you, let alone to resist the technique.

A solution is to start as if you were going to do rokkyo (hiji jime) then change in effect let him win the resistance. He will set himself up for kote geishi.
(Personally in use the crumbling paper version as opposed to side hand sweep)

Sometime, a technique is not there, so doing it is not appropriate but usually resisting on technique will give you another one.
We can argue to no end, if such is the case the why bother with the technique that is not there or if in that case if rokkio may not be counter productive as I really goes to the opposite of KG.
However I think it get us closer to the little nugde that people that are better than me because ultimately, you can reduce HJ to its very initial part, only to create the isolation.

phil

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Old 05-27-2008, 04:41 PM   #46
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Just to keep us using the same language- In Yoshinkan Aikido, we have ichi (linear) and ni (circular or involving a pivot/tenkan) techniques.

Either way, with kote gaeshi you have to get your uke moving. In ichi, you drag them in the direction of their attack, then execute the throw. In ni, you pivot and bring uke around your center.

Once they have taken a step or two, it's much easier to achieve kuzushi because they think they're resisting the initial movement.

IMHO: You have to keep in mind, the power of kote gaeshi is in it's name "wrist reversal".

PS: Typically, when we turn back for the throw, we use a strong atemi, then turn the wrist and step through (ichi) or large pivot (ni).

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 05-27-2008 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:47 PM   #47
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I'm told that Yamaguchi sensei used to remark that kotegaeshi was probably a bad name for it.

Rob
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:50 PM   #48
Keith Larman
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm told that Yamaguchi sensei used to remark that kotegaeshi was probably a bad name for it.

Rob
Just fwiw, in talking with my sensei about experiences training with Tohei in his prime... I asked about his kotegaeshi. Their comment was it was much like someone very gently putting a pallet of bricks on your outstretched hand. It wasn't that it hurt or that it was twisted or yanked or pushed. It just went down. Inexorable I think is the word...

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Old 05-29-2008, 01:13 AM   #49
judojo
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Dear Sensei Johnson, The topic Kote Gaeshi such interesting and with resistance of the attacker/uke. The theory of O' Sensei Morihei Ueshiba is of greater value. Why the pure Ai Harmony and Ki chikara are actualized by our root foundation of Aikido his Greatness Erai O' Sensei Morihei Ueshiba? . Because of such Resistance of the Uke which flow the soft and fluid wazas of Traditional Aikido. Thus even the Zuki of uke with resistance is struct down by this Kamae Tachi, combined with this Tore and Nage, and thus the Matte is successful. Reynaldo Ligoro Albano, Ju Dojo

Last edited by judojo : 05-29-2008 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:40 PM   #50
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

kotegaeshi is infamous for not "working". I think you have to get uke to a point that his mind is not on kotegaeshi, or it will never work as a real "throw"... you might still get off a broken joint while you're getting stabbed in the face though.
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