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Old 05-16-2008, 10:56 AM   #26
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Laura Donohue wrote: View Post
I have been observing and practicing with soft eyes, using my peripheral vision whenever possible. I haven't been focusing on my partner so much or even making eye contact as much as I had before or would in similar learning situations (previous training, dance etc...). I think that I remember techniques taught to me quicker, and am more aware of the needs of my partner's body that way.

It is difficult to separate this development from my progress however...
It is important not to get over involved with observing one's own development. Rather allowing oneself to develop and taking a time to time reflection of the entire experince. Otherwise you cut yourself off from a larger body of information presenting itelf in the moment.
When practicing in sound principles within the classic body of aikido there are skills that include the exercises you are giving yourself. Like with the eyes. Yet, you may 'see' more if you turn over your thoughts to the simple practice of mind,body(eye) alignment.
Not tht your creative observations and enoyable initiative don't have their place and inspiration. They do and I encourage the exploration. I firstly encourage grounded principles in form. In that order you may root, grow, and radiate; like a beautiful flower cultivated in rich,developed soil.
Looks to me like you have a rich practice that will be a wonderful place for us all to check out now and again.
Thanks for sharing.
Gambatte!
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 05-16-2008 at 11:02 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:02 PM   #27
John Brockington
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Phillip-

Don't downplay your visual observations necessarily. I would be interested to know if you have tried changing the ambient lighting in similar situations and whether or not this influenced your perceptions. The fact that you noticed these colors when you were sick, hungry, etc. (and presumably not in a dojo with bright light and white gi's) suggests you may be a Synaesthete. This is a well documented neurologic condition, described beautifully by Luria in his book on a Russian individual identified as S. who was a multiple synaesthete. S. would see colors as people spoke, for example. I heard one synasthete say that they used to see certain colors when they saw specific numbers, seven always provoked blue for example, frequently as a child but less so now as an adult, mainly when they are fatigued now.

John
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:44 PM   #28
Ketsan
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Laura Donohue wrote: View Post
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura
I once saw a golden image of my uke attacking about a second before he did.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:16 PM   #29
Buck
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

John,

Wow, very interesting to know about the synaesthete experience. I have heard of a savant who associated numbers with colors. But I thought that was part of being a savant, and didn't know there was a name for such an experience. And by no means am I a savant.

Thanks, I am going to look into synaesthete some more it has got my curiosity up.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:08 AM   #30
Travis Johnson
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

It's great to see these posts!! Yes, I have seen "auras" as well, around many people, plants, animals, and other objects as well. Especially in aikido. It's true, for me it is much easier to see them against a non-distracting background, such as a white wall, or against the blue sky on a sunny day. Aikido dojos have awesome lighting for viewing this energy.

There came a point when I realized I wasn't fabricating these images with my mind. I mean, if they're not real, then my mind apparently does a damn good job of fooling me.

Best Regards,
Enjoy training...

-Travis
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:31 PM   #31
Buck
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
John Brockington wrote: View Post
Phillip-

Don't downplay your visual observations necessarily. I would be interested to know if you have tried changing the ambient lighting in similar situations and whether or not this influenced your perceptions. The fact that you noticed these colors when you were sick, hungry, etc. (and presumably not in a dojo with bright light and white gi's) suggests you may be a Synaesthete. This is a well documented neurologic condition, described beautifully by Luria in his book on a Russian individual identified as S. who was a multiple synaesthete. S. would see colors as people spoke, for example. I heard one synasthete say that they used to see certain colors when they saw specific numbers, seven always provoked blue for example, frequently as a child but less so now as an adult, mainly when they are fatigued now.

John
John,

I did some snooping into Synaesthete and I have found out that I don't think I am. I don't associate colors with numbers for example. And because all humans have this ability in the womb most of us lose it in adulthood so maybe at one time I was, but not now. For these reasons, Synaesthete are mostly non right handed, women, it runs in families-genetically and people with high intelligence. I am right handed, and it doesn't run in my family and I am of average college level I.Q. I figure the colors I are visible light waves. The gold is some where in between yellow and orange waves.

John, I think it was awesome you said I might be experiencing Synaesthete. It was something I never knew about, and it is great you share with me something you knew. My world is a little broader now. Thanks.
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:55 PM   #32
Buck
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

After John's enlightening suggestion, I think what I see is visible light waves as spots. I don't think I am seeing ki or thing else then visible light. I don't think Ki can be seen in this way. The Chinese picture character for Chi which Ki comes from show rice cooking. I know there has been many a debate on what Ki is and isn't. For me Ki is another word for power, not force, but power. Like it takes heat, a container, water, to make rice soft and appetizing. The power of the heat source to heat the water to make it boil to soften the rice is for me is Chi base on the Chinese character for Chi.

The point am trying to make is seen from the Chinese characters that Chi is not color, but power (what ever that power is). Yes, I think you can see Ki if it is power. I think it has to be power because it is associated with fighting. Oh add Kiai that is a power and not a color. Power defeats the person your fighting. I don't see how color can defeat a person. The only way I see color play a role in martial arts is a measurement of Ki/power radiating from the body, but even then I can't wrap my head around how color would be able to do that. How could that help a person's ability to fight off an attack. And not everyone sees color.

FWIW that is my reasoning anyway on seeing Ki.

Last edited by Buck : 05-17-2008 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:54 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I once saw a golden image of my uke attacking about a second before he did.
I once saw a man walking with a cow and he waved a stick and turned the cow into a pasture.
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:12 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

It's not have it happen once....but consistently that matters...in a way that is useful habitually.

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Old 05-18-2008, 06:52 PM   #35
Buck
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

If you can't see ki, of course you could feel it. Colors also might be used for spiritual means.
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:59 PM   #36
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.

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Old 05-18-2008, 08:03 PM   #37
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.
If Vogue doesn't have it, Sweet Sixteen will.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:21 PM   #38
eyrie
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24378509/

Ignatius
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:21 PM   #39
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.
Thizzz is all the rage.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:30 PM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

read the link closely.

Hoffman said:
Quote:
"I had the impression I was rooted to the spot. But my assistant told me we were actually going very fast."
See...rooted. hmmmmm

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Old 05-18-2008, 09:36 PM   #41
Ryan Sanford
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.
Oh man, what a sight that would be, watching someone training like that.

"I swear man, I was my uke!"

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:50 AM   #42
happysod
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

I suddenly feel like I'm the army major in Monty Python, mainly because I have the overwhelming urge to shout "Now stop this, it's all getting very silly..." Still, a useful quote for any fellow skeptics reading this thread...

The most costly of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind. - H.L. (Henry Lewis) Mencken

I of course apologise in advance to the true believers, I blame an unhealthy need of peer-reviewed research and double-blind testing

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:02 AM   #43
Buck
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Laura Donohue wrote: View Post
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura
Now that the comedians have taken the stage and before they get carried away, Laura I hope you got some good input. Last comment from me, I would say if color and light is distracting the mind it would be only until it was so common it went un-noticed.

I thought you bring up a good subject, it was well thought out.
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:35 PM   #44
Peter Cina
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Laura - I will share what I can based on many years of reasearch when I was younger, supported by my own direct, first hand experience.
Our "physical" body is but part of the energy that coalesces around our essential being (our "I", spirit, soul, etc.) We have various "subtle bodies" - energy bodies consisting of matter that is less dense than what we know of as normal physical matter. They vibrate at different frequencies, the way there are different wavelenghts of light, including those which our normal perceptual apparatus do not register, and sounds beyond our normal hearing abilities. The multicolored human "aura" which clairvoyants perceive is one or more of these subtle energy bodies.
It is interesting to note that both Western, Christian mystics (i.e. Theosophists) and Eastern (Hindu, Yogic, Buddhist) spititualists' accounts of these phenomena agree to a very large degree. We are somewhat more familiar with the Eastern elucidations of Chakras, which are intimately connected with the subtle energy bodies, but they also were aware of "auras". And the Western, Christian mystics also wrote alot about the Chakras too.
The subtle bodies are not limited to occupying the same physical space as the physical body. The physical body, being densest, is the most compact; the vairous subtle bodies are less compact, based on their varying degrees of density. Thus, they are oftern peceived as being outside of the physical body. The subtle body closest in density, and thus is size and shape to the physical body, has by some been called the "health aura". It is usually perceived as colorless and transparent, in my experience. Open your fingers ("V" shape) and look between them at an object in the distance. If you focus on the detail you can often observe, especially in a bright, outdoor environment, a distortion of the light that passes close to the fingers, in comparsion to the light that passes through the center of the "V". This is similar to the distortion of the light you see through heat rising off hot pavement. I don't think the distortion is caused by heat though, but by the light passing through the subtle body matter.
It may be that what you are seeing is this "health aura". Does this mean you are seeing "Ki"? We would first have to agree on what "Ki" is before we could even approach that question. And that is no easy task. Nothing in my experience causes me to suspect that the vague perception of this subtle body is either a particular help or hinderance to your Aikido practice, as long as you don't get distracted by your peception of it.
My purpose in writing this is to assure you that there is no reason to think that your mind is making this up (as an earlier respondent suggested). I find it sad that so many people believe that because a perceptual experience is not commonly shared by most of humanity, that it is not-real but simply the product of an overactive imagination. And I prefer to counter such opinions when I am able to.

- Peter
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Old 05-28-2008, 02:10 PM   #45
miratim
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

. It is usually perceived as colorless and transparent, in my experience. Open your fingers ("V" shape) and look between them at an object in the distance. If you focus on the detail you can often observe, especially in a bright, outdoor environment, a distortion of the light that passes close to the fingers, in comparsion to the light that passes through the center of the "V". This is similar to the distortion of the light you see through heat rising off hot pavement. I don't think the distortion is caused by heat though, but by the light passing through the subtle body matter.
It may be that what you are seeing is this "health aura".


What? Isn't that just diffraction? Take two pencils and do the same thing. You see the same distortion, right? Does the pencil have an aura?
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:23 AM   #46
happysod
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
I find it sad that so many people believe that because a perceptual experience is not commonly shared by most of humanity, that it is not-real but simply the product of an overactive imagination. And I prefer to counter such opinions when I am able to
Not just imagination, many people suffering from either food or water deprivation (including many of the mystics you mentioned) or extremes of pain or anxiety also report many shared perceptions - not really very strange as we're all provided with more or less the same biological wiring and when it goes on the fritz, the likelyhood is that it will fail in the same fashion.
Quote:
Nothing in my experience causes me to suspect that the vague perception of this subtle body is either a particular help or hinderance to your Aikido practice, as long as you don't get distracted by your peception of it.
At least here we can agree.

You want to get good at anything, practice hard and practice a lot. You want to get good at a martial art, go out and get yourself hurt a few times, works wonders for the reflexes.

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 05-29-2008, 12:34 PM   #47
John Brockington
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

"Perception refers to the ability to sense a stimulus regardless of whether the stimulus is recognized. Recognition of a stimulus is a sequential process that begins with perception and progresses through stages of increasing refinement."
Cummings, J. "Concise Guide to Neuropsychiatry and Behavioral Neurology" 2nd ed, 2002.

"Perception may be accurate, but interpretation flawed."
Brockington, J. "Opinions in Behavioral Neurology" 1st ed. 2008.
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Old 05-29-2008, 11:20 PM   #48
HL1978
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

You can absolutely see ki, in that you can see its effects on other people, but you need to know how to generate that sort of power.

Once you understand the difference in sensation between muscular power and "ki", from both uke and nage, then it becomes easier to visualize.

I am not refering to seeing ki in a metaphysical sense, but the very real physical skill.
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:22 AM   #49
judojo
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Dear Sensei Jennifer Smith, I love American Aikido for innovations of Traditional Aikido. The topic about the Ki , we can see this during bunkai and kihon practices. This flow of movement is soft and not an opposition to the uke uchi. This is Chikara the power that made the Tore and Nage. God Bless America. Reynaldo Ligoro Albano
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:17 AM   #50
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Honestly, I don't think so...but I believe that you can feel it...

They say that when your KI is flowing you feel like you are in the "zone" NBA players say that when they are in the "zone" they can see that the basketball ring is bigger than usual. Some Karatekas in competition say that they see their opponents in slow motion...maybe that's the effect of KI as to how you see...

Sincerely,

Iking

Last edited by Enrique Antonio Reyes : 06-02-2008 at 01:19 AM. Reason: grammar
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