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Old 05-17-2008, 10:35 PM   #101
Aikibu
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Do you call your aikido a "martial" art?
Yes... we've (Aikido and I) been married almost 20 years now and it has been a beautiful relationship.

Ohh I thought you meant Marital Art....

Now when I can find a woman who's also married to Aikido the "Martial Art" and can tolorate me long enough to "Jump the Jo"

Well then... It will be one happy Marital Martial Bunch!

Sorry guys and gals I thought an "extra" bit of silliness might lighten things up-.

William Hazen

You try thinking straight with years of surf boards dinging your knoggin!
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:21 AM   #102
rob_liberti
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.



Well, there you have it.. We achieved some level of harmony as well...

Back to my good friend Tyler - even Mary teaches how to fight for your life. Apparently, she just narrowed the scope of the term fight to only mean sport fighting which gave the thread title more bang - but was a bit confusing. (And apparently she makes some distinction between that kind of training from aikido training.) My only point here is that if what you are doing is based on principles then they are supposed to work in conflict and in no-conflict or they are not principles - they are delusion. And aikido is just not SUPPOSED to be about delusion (unless you are in aikido marketing then all bets are off).

Rob
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:22 AM   #103
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Aikido is a martial art founded by the late Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei of Japan. Ueshiba O-Sensei was one of the greatest masters of martial arts in any country or any period of recorded history. Through tremendous soul searching for the truth of Budo, he was led to his own spiritual enlightment.

Aikido is a martial art based on the laws of nature, the order of the universe. As such it provides not only the necessary skills for self defense but also builds self-confidence, character, self-respect, and respect for others. It teaches us how to transform our aggression and the difficulties of our everyday life into joy and self-improvement. Practiced properly it enables us to bring our mind and body under the control of our will and thereby realize our true nature as human beings.

"The victory of Shobu Aikido is to strike down and destroy the mind of doubt and conflict within yourself. It is to realize and carry out the destiny we have received from divine providence. It is the spirit of universal protection and nurturing, giving renewed energy to oneself. This is the true Budo."


Hi Rob:

I don't see any conflict with the aikido that I train in or that Tyler is speaking of with this quote from the Shobo Aikido home page.

Sport fighting and defending your life are very different...I thought we all understood this.
Mary
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:28 AM   #104
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
I know that I don't have what it takes, and if something terrible enough occurred to make me forget this, I wouldn't likely be using aikido techniques on my opponent. I like to think that at least I have the sense to be running when others will be trying out their shihonages.
The one time I really needed to find out if I "had what it takes", running wasn't an option. I couldn't leave my great aunt to the mercy of the thugs. To me, leaving someone defenseless wasn't an option. Fortunately, I was able to resolve the issue without "trying out my shihonage", which wasn't even on my mind at the time. I didn't think about technique at all...I thought about connecting to my opponants, without being intimidating.

Personally, I don't think I would have been able to pull that off without the pressure testing in the dojo. But that's just my best guess. No way to prove it.
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:53 AM   #105
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Rob Liberti wrote:

Quote:
My only point here is that if what you are doing is based on principles then they are supposed to work in conflict and in no-conflict or they are not principles - they are delusion.
I disagree on this point. Principles are designed to help us from a common operational base or a frame of reference to base future decisions on. They are not designed to be applied directly as taught.

We work very much this way in the military. I spent the first couple years as an Infantry Officer studying princples and doctrine ad nausem. I then went to a school that was designed to put these things in use in very creative ways at "full combat speed". One thing that kept getting driven home is that you must be able to articulate and identify the principles and doctrine you are using....and when you violate it...be able to articulate why you chose to do so.

That is you may choose to violate the principle of Steath in favor of Speed because it may cost you your mission.

Principle based arts like aikido serve a purpose to provide a doctrinal framework or foundation.

Much of the problem is that many don't ever really understand completely (if you can) how to apply these principles or doctrine.

My own personal opinion is if you are sitting around waiting for someone to tell you or show you...you'll be there for a long time...and probably end up feeling ripped off and griping about it on aikiweb.

I have found the same to be true in the Army. If you sit around waiting for someone to tell you or to train you....well you are going to miss the boat.

The knowledge is all there...it is up to each individual to get out and explore the principles and make them their own.

Most of us, myself included, come into the art of aikido with a very limited and narrow view of application (self defense), when what we are doing in the dojo does not meet that view directly, we start experiences conflict and question what is we are doing.

If we can get past this, and except it for what it is, and open ourselves up a little more and let go.....well we can begin to experience it in a different way.

I personally have a distain for the use of self defense and aikido in the same sentence.

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Old 05-18-2008, 11:24 AM   #106
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Rob Liberti wrote:

I disagree on this point. Principles are designed to help us from a common operational base or a frame of reference to base future decisions on. They are not designed to be applied directly as taught.

We work very much this way in the military. I spent the first couple years as an Infantry Officer studying princples and doctrine ad nausem. I then went to a school that was designed to put these things in use in very creative ways at "full combat speed". One thing that kept getting driven home is that you must be able to articulate and identify the principles and doctrine you are using....and when you violate it...be able to articulate why you chose to do so.

That is you may choose to violate the principle of Steath in favor of Speed because it may cost you your mission.

Principle based arts like aikido serve a purpose to provide a doctrinal framework or foundation.

Much of the problem is that many don't ever really understand completely (if you can) how to apply these principles or doctrine.

My own personal opinion is if you are sitting around waiting for someone to tell you or show you...you'll be there for a long time...and probably end up feeling ripped off and griping about it on aikiweb.

I have found the same to be true in the Army. If you sit around waiting for someone to tell you or to train you....well you are going to miss the boat.

The knowledge is all there...it is up to each individual to get out and explore the principles and make them their own.

Most of us, myself included, come into the art of aikido with a very limited and narrow view of application (self defense), when what we are doing in the dojo does not meet that view directly, we start experiences conflict and question what is we are doing.

If we can get past this, and except it for what it is, and open ourselves up a little more and let go.....well we can begin to experience it in a different way.

I personally have a distain for the use of self defense and aikido in the same sentence.
Thanks again sir and I agree....To further illustrate this mindset I am reminded of a very old story in the Bible...I think it's in the old testament and I can't remember the names or circumstances but here it goes...

One of the leaders of the tribes of Israel was tasked with an important mission to infiltrate a fortress and defeat the garrison. He realized he needed only the best warriors and wondered how he could go about selecting them. The army had been marching for days when they came to the bank of a small river. The men were very thirsty and tired from marching. An old salt took the leader down by the river bank and had him watch the men drink from the river. He saw why in just a few moments...Tired and thirsty most of the men threw down thier weapons, and drank from the river like dogs gulping as much water as they could...A much smaller group of men squatted or knelt on the bank carefully placing thier weapons beside them. They cupped thier hands and sipped the water being careful to remain alert as they did so even though there was no enemy within miles. The leader had no further trouble choosing which men to carry out his mission...

Thousands of year later much the same methodology is used to determine who is qualified to be a member of certain elite branches of our Armed Forces...

Aikido is a Martial Art but there are those who practice it with Martial intent and those that don't... that IMO is the reason some folks perception of Aikido as a wishy washy yoga with a partner exercise...

Self Defense without Martial Intent or any practice which does not build a Martial Spirit is just another way to separate a fool from his/her money

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-18-2008 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:05 PM   #107
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Mary,

OF COURSE I UNDERSTAND there is a difference between "sport fighting" and "self defence". I'm not confused on that point. Accusing me of "that" doesn't mean it was my point of confusion.

What you seem to continue to fail to understand is that the term "fight" is a broader term than the phrase "sport fighting". That was the issue I was confused about: what you meant to convey. In my opinion, if you meant "fight" to only mean "sport fighting" that's when one normally uses a qualifying word like "sport" in front of "fighting" so I (we all) don't end up confused by what you intended to convey. My teacher's website is not in conflict with what I am saying in terms of the broader sense of the term "fight".

For instance, for "self defence" you may have to "fight for your life". "Fight for you life" is a pretty common phrase, in fact. It is an example of a normally accepted meaning for the word "fight" - as opposed to the much more narrow scope of "sport fighting".

Kevin,

Quote:
I disagree on this point. Principles are designed to help us from a common operational base or a frame of reference to base future decisions on. They are not designed to be applied directly as taught.
I don't want to fight with you about this (which I do not mean to be sport fighting!), but honestly we are talking past each other in terms of the word "principle".

What exactly is the principle of "stealth" or the principle of "speed"? To me, they are important concepts but not principles.

I have been writing here for a long time now and in many posts I have expressed that aikido attacks are primarily symbolic attacks. In aikido, we might practice, "tate/yoko" how veritical movement has got to be the main movement in aikido. It is practiced in normal aikido class (hopefully). That principle must work under any amount of pressure. Also, the principle of "entering and recieving" is practiced in normal aikido class. Your partner attacks with a silly over the head strike and you enter, and instead of slamming into their arm (hopefully!), you recieve it as you move in, unify (another principle) and move with them using your entire body. These principles have to work when say fighting for your life on an airplane when someone has a box cutter and you have a rolled up magazine. Other example of normally accepted aikido principles might be something like "weight underside", "keep one point". They have to work under pressure too even if you never sport fight.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 05-18-2008 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:17 PM   #108
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

No fight intended, just discussion. Speed and Steath are basic prinicples of combat within the U.S. Army. I used them as an example to discuss the concept of principles as they relate to my experiences. BTW, the DO apply to martial arts in general. We just tend to not practice them in the dojo.

That was my point though, and what I disagreed with. Principles must be universal, but they may or may not be applied in a particular situation, or you might favor one principle over another. It doesn't mean the they are not factors in the situation, but you might choose to exploit another one that gives you a tactical edge.

I'd love to have a further discussion with you on principles, I think it would be very interesting. (In a good way).

Your example with the airplane...

I think I look at it differently. I think things like "concentrated mass", audacity, seizing the iniative, and overwhelming firepower/strength play much more into the situation as principles than maybe some of the things we practice in the dojo on a normal basis.

Entering...I'd call it "closing the distance" Definitely...you have to be able to reach out and touch someone in order to affect them. That one I'd agree with.

Let me do some work and thought on principles and post something. We might find we'd agree on many, or at least may be looking at it differently from a different perspective.

Thanks.

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Old 05-18-2008, 08:17 PM   #109
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Okay, so there is an issue of context or depth here. I think I need to build a few concepts to explain my position.

1) I think aikido is about mind, body, and spirit. I have heard some helpful ideas like:
Our physical body comes up from the ground.
Our spiritual essence comes down from the heavens.
Where they meet is what we call our Mind.
(YMMV)

2) Hopefully we can agree that aikido offers a physical practice which takes a lot of mental discipline and effort, that develops strong spirit.

Considering aikido in those terms, the ONLY principle that is meaningful within such a context is the "principle of correspondence" (and all other meta principle of that one).

The principle of correspondence basically says: As above, so below; as below, so above. If it is true on one level, it must be true on all levels. This principle states that there is a harmony, agreement and correspondence between these planes, delineated as
The Great Physical Plane
The Great Mental Plane
The Great Spiritual Plane

So an aikido principle like "tate/yoko" (vertical is main, followed by horizontal) can work on all levels. Trees grow straight up, and branches grow off of that. Some people might even consider a very large tree a spiritual place because that is where a lot of earth energy comes up from out of the ground. If you need a better example of tate/yoko in terms of spirituality, how about the sign of the cross? I'm not an expert in this area for sure. But to make the point clearer, when yoko (meant as horizontally based movement) becomes primary, that is muscling/not primarily coming from center, which is typically thought of as ego based movement. I might say that irimi/tenkan is a meta principle of "tate/yoko". "Entering and turning" can have physical meaning, but is also applicable in a verbal conflict. (Spiritually, we might look to the kotodama of "E" for verticality and "A" for expansion from that. Or look to flowing water rising up after crashing into a rock. Again, I'm not an expert in this area.)

In such context, I wouldn't consider "stealth" to be a thread common to all techniques. There are times when you want people to be very aware of you. I can think of sword work examples where I want to "cut the person's vision" so I can take advantage. I have the same contextual issue with "speed". For example, there are going to be times when it is more advantageous to be slow and methodical.

As I see it, principles in aikido are supposed to be the "spine" of the techniques that hold them all up. Those things have to work under stress at least as well if you are fighting for your life, sport fighting, or just practicing with purely symbolic attacks. That's my issue with "fight does not work in aikido". I can agree if what is meant by "fight" was what I would have considered "yoko" or horizontal movement being main. But that's as far as I can go with the phrase because without some form of pressure testing, muscling techniques will work (or trick you into thinking they do - which I think we have been in agreement on all along).

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 05-18-2008 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:32 PM   #110
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Rob,

Good stuff. If you have not read this it is worth checking out.

http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Spin...1163761&sr=8-1

Scaravelli codified through her practice in yoga alot of the things you talk about. Breath, Wave, Gravity.

Yes, context and depth are probably at issue here, I agree.

I agree that RE Stealth, there are times you want people to know you are there, absolutely. In these cases you make a choice to violate that principle in favor of another.

Slow and methodical can be good to. Even in combat. One thing beginners do is rush to much into the heat of battle without letting the situation develop.

Slow and methodical (patience) comes into play a great deal strategically for sure.

I think the main thing is that you don't get to arbtarily pick which principles you wan to ignore, which is what I think your point is too. They are always present and something you are always subject too.

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Old 05-18-2008, 09:25 PM   #111
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think the main thing is that you don't get to arbtarily pick which principles you wan to ignore, which is what I think your point is too. They are always present and something you are always subject too.
I agree. My way of thinking is that if there are ANY situations on any level where speed or stealth do not work (or maybe are just not desirable) then they are not principles as I understand the term "principle" in terms the "principles of aikido". To me, terms like "speed" and "stealth" are just sometimes-helpful "concepts" or "factors".

For instance, speed in getting home from work to help with my son - desirable to my wife. Speed in love making .... YMMV (So speed would not be a "principle" of many marriages.)

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 05-18-2008 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:14 PM   #112
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

I see it as a case of ideals vs reality. There is how we all want it to be and the standard we hold ourselves to, and what happens when the crap hits the fan.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:59 AM   #113
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Good summation of thing Don. The case from Rob's standpoint, and I agree, is that in order for something to be a principle in must be applicable not only in practice, but when it hits the fan...if it is not then it is not a principle.

My point is that you can "weight" or supress principles in order to enhance or achieve a particular endstate or outcome. In aikido, our objective is the perfection of the way, there are certain things (principles) that were isolated in and out in order follow and understand the Way.

Same is true for "when the crap hits the fan". We train or implement pinciples slightly different in order to realize a certain level of efficiency.

Same principles apply, but the situation/endstate causes us to weight our focus maybe in a different manner.

It is why, I think we need to be concerned about the linkage between fight (when the crap hits the fan), and the (DO), to ensure we have an understanding of the principles that come into play totally.

Thinking about it, maybe principles is not the right word...

Good discussion anyhow.

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Old 05-19-2008, 07:41 AM   #114
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Speed, slowness, stealth, methodical, hasty, soft, hard, etc are all tactics to me. Never principles. A principle to me is what I consider the body structure/aiki. It is always there. *How* I use it is tactics. If I want to be soft and redirect, hard and redirect, fast and strong, slow, etc. It's all tactics. You can vary tactics. You shouldn't vary principles.

Or another example, I view a principle in kali as disable/break/kill/destroy whatever comes into range. Now, I can do that quickly, slowly, against a joint, a bone, a tendon, a muscle, with a stick, a knife, a hand, etc.

The principle is the base. It happens no matter what. The tactics are how the principle is employed or used. Those change.

IMO,
Mark
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:25 AM   #115
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Good points Mark.

Done a little more thinking on the subject. Here are some base principles that are used at the base infantry level that I think are applicable to all martial actions.

They are very, very basic princples, which I think asI dig into this, I find that what I thought were principles are not necessarily principles but the implementation of principles.

Thanks for making me think hard about this!

Tactical Manuever. You cannot affect things unless you can move. Movement alone is not enough, you must be able to employ "combat power".

Advantage. Exploit your own strengths while preventing the enemy from exploiting his own. (Speed and Stealth would fall into this area I think).

Combinations. You must be able to creatively combine weapons, tactics, and what not to create confusion for the enemy and opportunities for you.

Tactical Decisionmaking. Make quick decisions and iniate appropriate actions in order to create a tempo that overwhelms. (Speed would fall here, not speed itself, but the ability to make decisions based on training and experience).

Combat Power. Having the requisite skills necessary to employ in the fight.

Situation. Every situation is unique and must be solved on its own merits.

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Old 05-19-2008, 11:41 AM   #116
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Good points Mark.

Done a little more thinking on the subject. Here are some base principles that are used at the base infantry level that I think are applicable to all martial actions.

They are very, very basic princples, which I think asI dig into this, I find that what I thought were principles are not necessarily principles but the implementation of principles.

Thanks for making me think hard about this!
Yeah, I think our military uses tactics and strategy quite a bit more than principles. Thought about what the military might use as principles and only came up with a couple things.

Mobility. The military is designed to be mobile. And when engaging, how that mobility is used becomes tactics.

Civilians. Do not engage or shoot civilians. So, when going into an engagement, this principle has redefined our tactics and strategy. Otherwise, we'd just bomb cities like we did in WWII and expect civilian casualties.

Firepower. We use some sort of firepower. It's a given. From pistols to missiles. It doesn't change. (Better tech changes the form, but not the principle). How we utilize firepower is tactics.

Mobility, civilians, or firepower -- those don't change no matter how we engage another force. But, when we get to utilizing these principles, then a whole world of options opens up. That's where tactics come into play.

So, back to aikido ... when looking at aikido, what are some of the principles? Tenkan? Irimi? Or are those really tactics?

As I'm told, Daito ryu brought a person in and down at one's feet for break/kill. So, that could be a principle. If Ueshiba changed that from in and down to say, bounce off or pass through, then that could be a principle. But, I think the core body skills or the aiki is a principle to both Daito ryu and aikido.

These principles must not only stand up to training in the dojo, but also to the fight part. Principles do not change because environment changes. (For the military, think about the differences between arctic and desert. The military still needs to be mobile. You still can't just shoot civilians in either the snow or sand.)

Whether sport fighting, self-defense, or training, aikido's principles must hold true.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:35 PM   #117
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

My thoughts are that irimi and tenkan are implementations or the concept of mobility.

I agree once you accept and understand the concept of mobility. That is, you cannot affect the fight until you can move to a position of advantage, then it opens up a range of options to consider martially.

for example, I put irimi/tenkan into the same categoy as the clinch. It would also involve shrimping to the guard etc.

It doesn't matter what art or system you practice, if you don't address mobility then you will have issues.

How much do you need to go into it? I think it depends on your endstate.

This is the beauty of understanding the concept of the principle.

From an aikido standpoint we are concerned with teaching irimi/tenkan as the basis of our art. It teaches us to move and to probably most appropriately provides the basis for everything else in aiki DO.

Aikido may not be concerned with the clinch our shrimping to the guard per se, as it focuses on a different aspect of mobility that would take away from the time we have to spend on the teaching points of aikido.

However if your intent is to broaden your range of tactical understanding of mobility at a more complete range, you will need to spend some time working the clinch, guard, and all that.

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Old 05-19-2008, 12:43 PM   #118
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

To continue on....

Firepower.

Once you understand how to move, then you have to be able to do something with that movement to end the fight. There is a spectrum, I think, from complete disengagement (running?) to complete engagement (destruction).

Firepower might imply guns, but I think it conceptually involves whatever you have to influence the fight, from fist, elbows, sticks, knives, guns...or your own two legs to remove yourself from the fight.

agreed...how we use them is the tactics of it.

What is important is to understand the linkage between mobility and firepower.

If you can't move, you can't use it.

BJJ says "position before submission". I like that because it drives home the importance of dominance or mobility to the situaiton.

Do a scenario of trying to draw a gun while your opponent in mounted on you...see who wins, the guy with the gun, or the guy with positional control, or mobility!

From an aikido standpoint I think we stress this a great deal in everything we do. Again Iriminage is a wonderful application of this. Those that plant their feet and then reach to grab uke usually find they are not successful, you have to keep moving while letting the situation develop.

Again, what is key is to understand the relationship between firepower and mobility. Firepower without mobility does not work, and vice versa, mobility without firepower does not work.

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Old 05-20-2008, 07:38 AM   #119
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Well, nice try, Tyler and others who tried to write about the joy of Aikido training.

I still know you are out there....

There's a lot of fear in the world....Aikido training can help us transform that fear.
When folks can let go of their attachment to winning and argument and being right...it is a good beginning.
See ya on the mat,
Mary
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:13 PM   #120
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
There's a lot of fear in the world....Aikido training can help us transform that fear.
This is a very poignant statement. What I was wondering however is how exactly does Aikido transform that fear. What precisely about Aikido's practice method, principles, philosophy, techniques, tactics, etc. help human beings transform their fear into something else?

The reason I ask is because I have come across too many in the Aikido world and elsewhere who insist to me that they are well on the road to having transformed that fear, but quickly resort to many fear-driven responses when I blend with them and negate their waza when we start doing some "honest" training (i.e. Aikido training where both partners can use their free will to deal with his partner's techniques).

Imho there is an inherent dualism in Aikido - you are required to honestly face what you want to honestly transcend. In an earlier post I indicated that some of the truly fearless and by extension, peaceful and loving people I have encountered are those who have been well forged in the fire of extreme fear and danger. They have no delusions about the principles, tactics and strategies required to succeed in conflict and as a result they have engendered a self that is no longer driven by a desire to "compete and win" or a fear of losing anything.

Imho, as a result, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to truly reach the Aikido ideal of transcendence of fear without being schooled and guided by fear itself at some point during ones training. In those who have been through this school, fear is no longer a driver of their thoughts and actions, for those who have avoided dealing directly with fear in an attempt to transcend it, I find that fear-driven responses to conflict lie just beneath the facade of their everyday, "peaceful", "fearless" selves. This has merely been an observation - I reserver the right to be wrong.

Best
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 05-20-2008 at 02:17 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:26 PM   #121
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Fear

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
There's a lot of fear in the world....Aikido training can help us transform that fear.
I love that statement, and I agree with it.
In aikido we face some of our fears, and learn to overcome them. That's both on a basic physical level - like learning to fall, or to trust the technique when attacked - and on a mental one, where we try something we might fail miserably at, persevere and become diligent. And we learn to trust our training partners, which is also very good remedy against fear.
Just to mention a few aspects of it.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:58 PM   #122
rob_liberti
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Alright, what the heck...

I do find people sport fighting in Aikido to be completely valid.

I love that I get to meet myself and become the whole person I was meant to be - and how I cannot be deluded about it because I pressure test it, and go out and try other dojos and other martial arts.

I truly enjoy training.

I find it fabulous to really connect with uke and with someone doing anti-aiki using the internal skills to prevent technique...

It is a truly wonderful thing that people can take ukemi at 50 years old... Especially if they can take tobi ushiro ukemi from iriminage!

I think it is just wonderful that a 64 year old tiny woman throw a really big man even if it wouldn't work on the street - as long as she is not deluding herself or teaching her unpressure-tested technique as self-defence.

Rob
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:09 PM   #123
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Well, nice try, Tyler and others who tried to write about the joy of Aikido training.

I still know you are out there....

There's a lot of fear in the world....Aikido training can help us transform that fear.
When folks can let go of their attachment to winning and argument and being right...it is a good beginning.
See ya on the mat,
Mary
The purpose of any Budo Practice is to transform the person who practices it into a better human being.

Aikido is not the only practice which does this but it is the practice I chose. I am very thankful "it found me."

William Hazen
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:25 AM   #124
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
This is a very poignant statement. What I was wondering however is how exactly does Aikido transform that fear. What precisely about Aikido's practice method, principles, philosophy, techniques, tactics, etc. help human beings transform their fear into something else?

The reason I ask is because I have come across too many in the Aikido world and elsewhere who insist to me that they are well on the road to having transformed that fear, but quickly resort to many fear-driven responses when I blend with them and negate their waza when we start doing some "honest" training (i.e. Aikido training where both partners can use their free will to deal with his partner's techniques).

Imho there is an inherent dualism in Aikido - you are required to honestly face what you want to honestly transcend. In an earlier post I indicated that some of the truly fearless and by extension, peaceful and loving people I have encountered are those who have been well forged in the fire of extreme fear and danger. They have no delusions about the principles, tactics and strategies required to succeed in conflict and as a result they have engendered a self that is no longer driven by a desire to "compete and win" or a fear of losing anything.

Imho, as a result, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to truly reach the Aikido ideal of transcendence of fear without being schooled and guided by fear itself at some point during ones training. In those who have been through this school, fear is no longer a driver of their thoughts and actions, for those who have avoided dealing directly with fear in an attempt to transcend it, I find that fear-driven responses to conflict lie just beneath the facade of their everyday, "peaceful", "fearless" selves. This has merely been an observation - I reserver the right to be wrong.

Best
LC
Hi Larry,
nice post, I mostly agree. I think what the exact methods of working with fear are in Aikido depends totally on a given person and their situation though. Some are afraid of the ground to start with, and learning forward rolls is a great challenge. I was a bit like that. I have seen people being very brave in trying to get their unresponsive bodies to learn ukemi... Nowadays, I have overcome a lot of fears, but yes, that could still mean that if you were to train with me as you say I would be, on some level, a little afraid, so no contradiction there. (On another level, I would quite enjoy it I think, but it took many years to get there). In my experience, there has always been another level of fear to discover so far, it may just get more subtle. Fears come in so many forms and disguises... some might be terribly afraid of touchy feely aikibunny connection exercises.
( I find the fear of aikibunny a most interesting one, but that would be another thread...)

Have a nice day!
Nicholas
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:26 AM   #125
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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United Kingdom
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
This is a very poignant statement. What I was wondering however is how exactly does Aikido transform that fear. What precisely about Aikido's practice method, principles, philosophy, techniques, tactics, etc. help human beings transform their fear into something else?

The reason I ask is because I have come across too many in the Aikido world and elsewhere who insist to me that they are well on the road to having transformed that fear, but quickly resort to many fear-driven responses when I blend with them and negate their waza when we start doing some "honest" training (i.e. Aikido training where both partners can use their free will to deal with his partner's techniques).

Imho there is an inherent dualism in Aikido - you are required to honestly face what you want to honestly transcend. In an earlier post I indicated that some of the truly fearless and by extension, peaceful and loving people I have encountered are those who have been well forged in the fire of extreme fear and danger. They have no delusions about the principles, tactics and strategies required to succeed in conflict and as a result they have engendered a self that is no longer driven by a desire to "compete and win" or a fear of losing anything.

Imho, as a result, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to truly reach the Aikido ideal of transcendence of fear without being schooled and guided by fear itself at some point during ones training. In those who have been through this school, fear is no longer a driver of their thoughts and actions, for those who have avoided dealing directly with fear in an attempt to transcend it, I find that fear-driven responses to conflict lie just beneath the facade of their everyday, "peaceful", "fearless" selves. This has merely been an observation - I reserver the right to be wrong.

Best
LC
Good post.
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