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Old 05-11-2008, 03:59 PM   #26
rob_liberti
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Alastair Bain wrote: View Post
Thanks for those links. Good stuff. From my understanding, Ueshiba had perfected the art of dealing with the judo approaches BEFORE they managed a grip or hold. However on the down side, if a Judoka did get that hold it was difficult to deal with.
More of Shodokan I see the more practical I see it. Good blend of what works but witin the bounds of not using orce to execute the technique.
Where did that understanding come from? I don't think there are many (any!) Judo folks who could do their throws AFTER getting a hold either. Osensei had some incredible stability. I assume you haven't seen the jo trick footage.

Rob
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Old 05-11-2008, 06:20 PM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Hey Don,

Done that...sometimes it works, sometimes I land REALLY hard. That's ok...

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-12-2008, 10:56 AM   #28
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

I would like to remind you all that the grabs themselves are key techniques in Aikido. How you grab in Katate Tori, Morote Tori, Mune Dori, Kata Tori, Sode Tori, Katate Tori Kubishime, or Ryote Tori are important to learn and do well. It is as important as some people in this forum point out is the importance of learning good Atemi techniques and Suburi and Jo techniques.

Many times I see the lack of resistance in Aikido comes from the poor teaching of good grappling.

Rock
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:49 PM   #29
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
I would like to remind you all that the grabs themselves are key techniques in Aikido. How you grab in Katate Tori, Morote Tori, Mune Dori, Kata Tori, Sode Tori, Katate Tori Kubishime, or Ryote Tori are important to learn and do well. It is as important as some people in this forum point out is the importance of learning good Atemi techniques and Suburi and Jo techniques.

Many times I see the lack of resistance in Aikido comes from the poor teaching of good grappling.

Rock
Hello Rock, I totaly agree with you on this. I am so passionate about it I did a DVD on just that. I think below is a link to it, I don't sell it myself. This is not a add for the DVD, I put it here just to show how much credence I give to that part of Aikido. No, the stuff is not flashy or a show stopper but just a part of Aikido that often gets passed over for the flash. But it is the basics of Aikido and I just don't see it taught much. That is why I did it so at least that record will be there after I die.

Dennis

www.createspace.com/238049

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 05-12-2008 at 01:54 PM.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:52 PM   #30
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Nice Dennis. It may not be an ad but I'm buying it. Thanks for the info and thanks for making the DVD. Hope we can get together for a practice before we both get too old. Sending you a private message.

Rock
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:11 AM   #31
numazu
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Where did that understanding come from? I don't think there are many (any!) Judo folks who could do their throws AFTER getting a hold either. Osensei had some incredible stability. I assume you haven't seen the jo trick footage.

Rob
Hi Rob. No I havent seen any footage of Ueshiba dealing with Judo throws to be honest. I was making an observation for the average Aikido practitioner. I think obviously Ueshiba could deal with almost anyone. For the average person, through my observations at least, if they can prevent the grapple by perfroming the technique before the hold takes place, they have greater chance of success. If the Judoka gets the hold on, I think it is very difficult to deal with them as their leverage comes on.
I think this is why Kano and his Judo was so successful in defeating so many Jujitsu schools of his time.
(I have no bias in the matter since I am not a Judoka - just what I feel).
If you have a good source of Ueshiba dealing with Judo throws, send me the link. Be very interested to take a look.
AL
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:03 AM   #32
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Of course there are some judo throws that do not require a 'judo grip'.

Morote gari comes to mind. However my advice is to keep distance and prevent gripping, then learn a good sprawl just in case. Remember that a grip does not have to be that judo grip you see in kata. That's just for teaching principles, real judoka have their own favorite grips and most have lots of practice throwing from odd or even non-optimal grips. Just grabing a sleeve/wrist/belly hair can be enough. The other huge thing is never crossing your feet, bad things come to people who cross their feet within sweep range of judoka.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:53 AM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Actually, it's the sweeps that usually keep me off balance enough for other waza to work for them...one aikido teacher I had is sansei...his dad trained judo in his youth. They used to kick car tires across a field to work on their sweeps.

Can you say OUCH?

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-13-2008, 07:27 AM   #34
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Interesting.

Imho if you are in range for a Judoka to get an effective sweep off (causing kuzushi or waza) then the judoka has already broken your ma ai as an Aikidoka and he is in control of the engagement. The same goes for any other method (e.g. boxing, tkd etc.), if you stay at the range where they are most effective then they will probably come out on top.

Morote gari as are the other waza of Judo requires the Judoka to close to a distance where a grip can be taken. In morote gari, the grip is to the back of the thighs, but a human arm is only so long in relation to the rest of the body, so one must step in to a certain range to be able to grip any part of another's anatomy. The Aikidoka should ideally be dealing with the Judoka before or on his way to closing distance and taking that grip ime.

Finally, as one who practices both Judo and Jujutsu alongside Aikido I'd say that being able to sprawl is good if all you want to do is improve your ability to deal with certain Judo/JJ attacks. However if you want to improve your Aikido there are a few ways to deal with these things without resorting to a sprawl ime.

Best.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:30 AM   #35
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Yea, but a respectable sprawl takes what, a few weeks to get down. Compared to what to develop aiki ways of dealing with the same type of attacks?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:17 AM   #36
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yea, but a respectable sprawl takes what, a few weeks to get down. Compared to what to develop aiki ways of dealing with the same type of attacks?
Like I said, it depends on your goal. If your goal is to improve your Aikido responses to these things then doing a sprawl will not necessarily bring you closer to that goal. It comes down to just being able to "survive" or truly developing deep and comprehensive skill in your chosen art - they are often different things. One does not have to become a sniper to be able to kill someone with a bullet, but then if one does not want to develop that level of expertize there is no problem. For a person training to be a sniper however, just hitting the target anywhere is not enough.

Tomiki was very clear in his desire to have Aikido stand on its own as Budo on par with and equal to Judo and Kendo (which were both very popular as "modern" methods of the old ways), so resorting to tactics from other methods (and we see resorting to Judo waza to deal with an attacker as such) one is not truly plumbing the depths of their practice and attempting to understand why Aikido works the way it does.

Imho digging deep within oneself and ones chosen method to find a solution to an elusive problem is quite a rewarding and enlightening experience. It also takes you to a place where few travel.

Best.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:56 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Hi Larry,

In my dealings with Judoka, sometimes I stay and work at my best ma ai, sometimes I work in their best ma ai. I do not assume that I will always be able to maintain a favorable ma ai (not saying you do make that assumption, just being clear).

I actually like stepping out of my comfort zone occationally. I also feel that there are things that can be done in a closer ma ai, that are still aikido. 'Course, I could be deluded... I haven't been all that sucessfull without strong atemi yet!

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-13-2008, 12:32 PM   #38
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Larry,

In my dealings with Judoka, sometimes I stay and work at my best ma ai, sometimes I work in their best ma ai. I do not assume that I will always be able to maintain a favorable ma ai (not saying you do make that assumption, just being clear).

I actually like stepping out of my comfort zone occationally. I also feel that there are things that can be done in a closer ma ai, that are still aikido. 'Course, I could be deluded... I haven't been all that sucessfull without strong atemi yet!

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,

I get what you're saying and I agree. In fact the reason I do JJ is in case every thing like ma ai etc. are already compromised in a given situation that I have to deal with. Imho there is an "ideal" ma ai that Aiki waza can work from, but that does not mean that it cannot work at others. Ma ai is only one part of the equation, positioning is as important imho. The reality is that both people are attempting to get the most favourable distance and position to execute their waza.

In my own experience, I've caught Judoka by doing exactly what you said - sacrificing my ideal ma ai (allowing them to get closer) and subtly offering an arm for them to take hold of, when they go for it I take their balance during the entry interval and execute something outside their typical randori repertoire like kotegaeshi. Much of Aiki waza is designed around proper timing. The timing must be supported by proper positioning (tsukuri) into the attacker's suki during the interval of the attack.

It comes down to how one defines core elements of Aiki waza as well. Pretty much all of the waza I've experienced in Shodokan involve using body weight power, positioning and correct postural alignment applied via tegatana in attack and defence. This guarantees that most waza will ideally be executed at the length of tegatana (roughly arm's length). The same waza can be executed without tegatana however, but often (though not always) more upper body muscle is brought into the equation.

Just my 2 cents. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Best.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:35 PM   #39
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Like I said, it depends on your goal. If your goal is to improve your Aikido responses to these things then doing a sprawl will not necessarily bring you closer to that goal. It comes down to just being able to "survive" or truly developing deep and comprehensive skill in your chosen art - they are often different things. One does not have to become a sniper to be able to kill someone with a bullet, but then if one does not want to develop that level of expertize there is no problem. For a person training to be a sniper however, just hitting the target anywhere is not enough.

Tomiki was very clear in his desire to have Aikido stand on its own as Budo on par with and equal to Judo and Kendo (which were both very popular as "modern" methods of the old ways), so resorting to tactics from other methods (and we see resorting to Judo waza to deal with an attacker as such) one is not truly plumbing the depths of their practice and attempting to understand why Aikido works the way it does.

Imho digging deep within oneself and ones chosen method to find a solution to an elusive problem is quite a rewarding and enlightening experience. It also takes you to a place where few travel.

Best.
LC
I've always read this part of his writings

Quote:
Aikido is much the same as judo because the origins of both reside in the ancient schools of jujutsu. If we generally classify the kinds of techniques (waza) in the ancient schools of jujutsu, there are four categories:

1. Nage-waza (throwing techniques)

2. Katame-waza (locking techniques)

3. Atemi-waza (striking techniques)

4. Kansetsu-waza (joint techniques)

Among these, many nage-waza and some katame-waza have been collected into the system of training that is "competition judo" (judo kyogi), and various atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza have been collected into the system of training that is "competition aikido" (aikido kyogi).
http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/jujitsumodernization.htm

as meaning his aikido was ment to focus on developing 2 of the 4 ranges of jiujitsu with judo relegated to the other 2. Thus implying that to be complete, you must have all 4.

I agree there is value to spend some time to see how to deal with a set technique using a set of principles. I just feel that like walking and running you need to learn to walk first. Once you understand the very high percentage, easy to learn and use techniques, then you can focus on the highly detailed specialization your art requires. Which I guess brings me to a point I have not yet brought up. To truly know what it takes to deal with an attack, you have to understand that attack and know how to use it. So the first step to dealing with a double leg takedown in aikido would not be to learn to sprawl, but to learn to execute a proper (and at least passable) double leg takedown.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:44 PM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Much agreed with that last post Don. If I had my druthers I'd have really done some serious judo before coming to aikido.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-13-2008, 05:18 PM   #41
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
To truly know what it takes to deal with an attack, you have to understand that attack and know how to use it. So the first step to dealing with a double leg takedown in aikido would not be to learn to sprawl, but to learn to execute a proper (and at least passable) double leg takedown.
Precisely.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:06 AM   #42
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Don Magee wrote:
To truly know what it takes to deal with an attack, you have to understand that attack and know how to use it. So the first step to dealing with a double leg takedown in aikido would not be to learn to sprawl, but to learn to execute a proper (and at least passable) double leg takedown.

Seems to me some hotshot tried that with George Ledyard a while back and hurt himself.

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Old 05-14-2008, 08:25 AM   #43
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

I will admit that trying to do a double leg take down on George is like trying to take down two Oka trees.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:58 AM   #44
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

The question is, did he really know what he was doing?

Any fool can do what they see on TV and claim to be a martial artist. And it becomes apparent very quickly once you meetup with soemone of even marginal skill (I'm not saying George's skills are marginal).

- Don
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:21 AM   #45
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The question is, did he really know what he was doing?

Any fool can do what they see on TV and claim to be a martial artist. And it becomes apparent very quickly once you meetup with soemone of even marginal skill (I'm not saying George's skills are marginal).
The guy was one of the guest instructors at an Aiki Expo in Las Vegas. As to whether or not he knew what he was doing is still up in the air. He sure did not know George.

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 05-14-2008 at 09:24 AM.

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Old 05-14-2008, 10:37 AM   #46
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Hi Dennis,

He didn't know what he was doing. False data point.

Pick your average heavy weight wrestler in college. Not even div. 1. Div 3 average guy, not even all american. Outcome would probably be more interesting and relevant, no matter failure or success.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-14-2008, 10:53 AM   #47
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Dennis,

He didn't know what he was doing. False data point.

Pick your average heavy weight wrestler in college. Not even div. 1. Div 3 average guy, not even all american. Outcome would probably be more interesting and relevant, no matter failure or success.

Best,
Ron
Back in the dark ages when I went to ISU we had an Olympic wrestler. He come to the Terre Judo Club. Took him to State Judo matches in Indianapolis and he took out some of the best until they found out who he was then developed strategies to do better against him.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:05 AM   #48
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Yup, I had some success with bjj strategies in judo tournaments before until the coaches started remembering me and telling their players what to do to stop me. After that i was shut down and had to rethink how I played.

- Don
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Old 05-14-2008, 02:14 PM   #49
aikilouis
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

So that's all there is to say ? Learn about the repertoire from the other arts and work on the techniques to counter them ?

This is very unsatisfactory.

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Old 05-14-2008, 02:21 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Huh...I don't think that's all that's been said. Maybe I've been reading a different thread.

But as far as that goes, yeah, I think it's a pretty practical start. If someone is willing to put the work in. Not to be flippant, but what exactly were you expecting?

Best,
Ron

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