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Old 05-01-2008, 11:04 AM   #1
Charles
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Questionable Content

A couple times a year we have the odd seminar and we like to take pictures and post them on the dojo's web site. People like to see pictures of themselves having fun and I think of it as a bit of an advertising thing. It shows us as active and doing things. And we get letters from people who have moved away telling us how much they like the pictures.

Mary Heiny sensei requests that we not show any pictures of her teaching and we respect that. She doesn't want anything out there that shows her demonstrating the incorrect way of doing some technique.

But digital cameras are really cool and we've started taking some video clips. We've posted a few in the past but at the most recent seminar we got a number of really good ones. Some are perhaps valuable for studying. The catch is that this sensei sells videos of his teaching.

So where is the line here? Photos might be out without prior approval except that it's pretty obvious that pictures are being taken. Objections are welcomed and heeded. Video isn't so clear these days but then these days nothing is private. And then we have to ask ourselves, Who owns the intellectual property that is the seminar?
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:12 AM   #2
edtang
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Re: Questionable Content

It is extremely poor form to post anything up without the sensei's explicit approval, IMO, especially if they're selling DVDs.
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:14 AM   #3
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Questionable Content

The question is: Did the visiting sensei give permission to video? And, if permission was given, what was the agreement about what you could do with the video afterwards. This is a very important subject and should not be taken lightly.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:43 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Questionable Content

I agree with Chuck. Same as with any teacher be it at a seminar or in a college class; the material and its presentation is that person's own work and without express written release nobody should be making it public in a recorded form.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:53 AM   #5
Michael Douglas
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
Charles Scheid wrote: View Post
... Video isn't so clear these days but then these days nothing is private. And then we have to ask ourselves, Who owns the intellectual property that is the seminar?
Nothing is private?
Only because there are so many scum with no manners posting videos without the permission of the videoed.
I said scum.

I cannot post video or photos which I have taken at training without permission of my training partners. They don't know this, we have never discussed whether I might post some training situations, some techniques or whatever. I have enough manners to not put them on the internet.
When I find something we did that is valid enough to post then I'll ask permissions and we will do it again for the video.
People are easy to contact, easy to ask, the question of posting stuff without permission should not even arise. Just ask.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:15 PM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Questionable Content

It depends on the event. if it is a private seminar being taught by an instructor that did not give permission it is probably not in good taste, or legal.

If it was a public demonstration, a competition or something, then I believe you fall in the realm of public domain and you have to live with it.

I have at least one youtube video of BJJ comps where my opponents filmed them. they edited out the parts that made them look bad and left in the parts that made them look good, put in some cool music and they look REAL GOOD now! Oh well!

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Old 05-01-2008, 02:33 PM   #7
Charles
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I agree with Chuck. Same as with any teacher be it at a seminar or in a college class; the material and its presentation is that person's own work and without express written release nobody should be making it public in a recorded form.
Actually, it's not quite as clear as that. Anything that I make, or think about, on company time belongs to the company so one would expect that the professor's lecture is the property of the institution that paid for it. And in turn, the sensei's seminar would belong to the dojo that booked and paid for it.

But then I've heard of professors claiming that students aren't allowed to take notes, the notes being on sale.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:44 PM   #8
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
Charles Scheid wrote: View Post
A couple times a year we have the odd seminar and we like to take pictures and post them --- requests that we not show any pictures of her teaching and we respect that.

But digital cameras are really cool and we've started taking some video clips. We've posted a few in the past but at the most recent seminar we got a number of really good ones. Some are perhaps valuable for studying. The catch is that this sensei sells videos of his teaching.

So where is the line here?
In most states of the the U.S. , the teacher owns the commercial use of his personal image, unless he has licensed it beyond the immediate appearance. Many states differ in the laws on use of such images for non-commercial or educational purposes -- so you need to check specifically on that in your state. If the appearance is at public invitation gathering then the venue is public. There is typically no legal expectation of privacy in any images from a public gathering, and they typically are public domain for noncommercial purposes. If used for commercial purposes then permission of any individual who is prominently featured is required. A paying seminar is not usually considered a public forum or venue. Unless the teacher is an employee of the dojo using them then the dojo does not usually own the images.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:52 PM   #9
Charles
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Re: Questionable Content

But this is a non-commercial, "fair use" sort of thing.

My own thinking is that photos are OK, but videos are not. Simply because, in this context, people know that they are being photographed and can object but they don't know that they are being videoed.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:57 PM   #10
edtang
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Re: Questionable Content

It's not really "non commercial" or "fair use" if you post up videos from a seminar without explicit permission from the sensei, on a public facing website that's promoting your dojo. Photos... eeeeeeh, I still don't know. This is all simply answered by asking the sensei in question before posting anything. It's the most courteous way of going about this, in any case.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:05 PM   #11
dragonteeth
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Re: Questionable Content

I think maybe it's one thing to keep a video of a seminar in the dojo's private library for students to check out, but another to post stuff on the web, especially without explicit permission. Whether it's legal or not perhaps shouldn't be the question. The bigger question might be how offended will the sensei be if we post this stuff, and will he refuse to teach here again if he is? Bigger still is the damage it might do to a dojo's reputation with other potential seminar instructors if word gets around that you didn't have permission and you posted it anyway.

And I think something else to consider is whether this guy is making his living doing this, or if he just does seminars for fun money. If I know a teacher's primary income is from their seminars, I'd probably be more willing to shell out for an official video and less likely to want a bootleg, especially if the video price was fair.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:50 PM   #12
Aristeia
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Re: Questionable Content

Let me be clearer on the question. Is it "I'm in this position what do you think I should do?". Or is it "i've got this footage/pic, what can I legally get away with and therefore justify"

If it's the first the answer is simple - you do whatever the sensei is comfortable with and nothing more. Even if you think they are being in some sense unreasonable. If it's the second - well, whatever.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:34 PM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
Charles Scheid wrote: View Post
But this is a non-commercial, "fair use" sort of thing.

My own thinking is that photos are OK, but videos are not. Simply because, in this context, people know that they are being photographed and can object but they don't know that they are being videoed.
It is good form, and by that I mean non-optional, to get permission of a guest instructor to take photos. If they are to be posted on-line the teacher should be informed in advance in case there are objections.

Video is the same in that no video should be made without the express approval of the teacher. He or she may then specify that it's ok to film it for use by the dojo as reference but no copies should be made. Definitely nothing should ever go up on the net without the express permission of the teacher.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:39 PM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
Lori Snidow wrote: View Post
I think maybe it's one thing to keep a video of a seminar in the dojo's private library for students to check out, but another to post stuff on the web, especially without explicit permission.
Most of the teachers I know will go along with this if they trust the folks at the dojo. But it's still a matter of needing permission to film in the first place. It is not the case that, just because you invited a guest instructor, you have the right to film the seminar. That's a separate issue. I've never said no, myself, but I would be extremely unhappy with someone if they abused my permission by putting material on the net or making lots of copies.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-01-2008, 09:52 PM   #15
mickeygelum
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Re: Questionable Content

Hi All,

Just ask the instructor/sensei/shihan. Some individuals have made them out to be so unapproachable it is ridiculous. They are not gods. Even more saddening, is a thread asking for a consensus of opinion on what to do.

Mr. Ledyard, if you were giving a seminar and saw you were being photographed or videoed, would you set the parameters to which the media would be used? Would you have them stop recording the event, if that was what you wanted?

Artistic license is not poor or incorrect performance of a technique. Aikido is a living art...some need to learn all techniques are not designed for all that are required to learn them.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:07 AM   #16
Nick P.
 
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Re: Questionable Content

On the one hand, I completely agree with all the points (and reasons) for asking the sensei in advance.

On the other hand, why should anyone really care who has pictures or video of them? With moderate photoshop skills I can paste the face on any sensei I like onto, say, the body of an adult-film star. Does that photo make them a porn star? It does if you choose to believe it. And if you choose to believe it based on a photo (or video), then friend, you are likely to believe almost anything, and there isnt much anyone else can do to stop you.

If you choose to share what you know, and invite people to come and learn, you offer it up fully, knowing there will be those who twist it, bastardize it, and maybe even understand it. Whether they have a note-pad, laptop, still camera, video camera or web-cam, or not, is in my mind, a small detail that makes no real difference in the end.

The loss to the Aikido community at large of having little or no photo or video record of a talented sensei is a far greater tragedy, in my mind.

This weekend will be the 3rd Heiney Sensei seminar I will have attended, and once again I will come away thinking "That was awesome!", and wish, a few days later, there was some video to review later on. Not just for me, but for everyone who is interested.

YMMV.

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Old 05-04-2008, 10:49 AM   #17
dragonteeth
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Re: Questionable Content

Having an agreement in place is a wonderful thing, but how could you ever guarantee that everyone who had access to it would honor that agreement? In the YouTube era, keeping something as rare as a Mary Heiny video off of the 'Net would be nigh impossible.

In some ways I hear echos of the argument that the file sharing proponents have with the record industry in this conversation. We have on one side the idea that she and teachers like her are an invaluable resource whose knowledge should belong to the aikido world as a whole because of her direct link to O Sensei. But on the other side we have the fact that she (and other teachers) has devoted herself so completely to teaching that she has no other source of income. If she were raking in the money like the big rock bands and if she were charging an arm and a leg for seminars, I might tend to side with the argument in favor of free public access. However, as her current situation with the hip surgery shows, she's not. To post her material on the net could do significant damage to her ability to make a living which IMHO is completely unfair. Even worse, if her ability to make a living teaching is diminished enough she might have to turn to a different profession, which would be a very grievous loss for us all indeed.

Here's hoping the surgery goes well. Perhaps someone could talk her into creating a personal archive of material to be shared either after her retirement or after her passing?
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Old 05-04-2008, 06:19 PM   #18
Nick P.
 
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Re: Questionable Content

Here is an interesting question; for everyone attending a seminar that is being filmed, has you waiver form included the same type authorization that the guest sensei would give for him/her being caught on film? If not, why not? After all, all the same reasons they have for not wanting to lose control over the material equally stand for all those attending. And you PAID money to be there.

I completely agree that teachers have a right to make a living, modest or otherwise, sharing what they have learned. I think the desire of the student to have a keepsake or reminder of that particular experience can also be, somehow, accommodated. Especially if there is no video or pictures of that session that can be purchased afterwards. I for one would gladly pay for a video or album profesionnaly or semi-profesionnaly produced that I know would be not only benefiting the sensei but would help build an archive that all could purchase.

I think that books and videos (legally acquired or otherwise) will never replace hands-on training with the teacher; in fact, the plethora of books and videos of the current doshu help reinforce my resolve to attend on of his seminars. Yes, obtaining those books and videos illegally would be taking money out of his pockets, no question (all of mine are ethically obtained). But even if they obtained by piracy, I dont think anyone could reasonable claim "I saw 45 minutes of his <insert name here>-seminar so not only did I save x-dollars by not going to the seminar, but I also "got" everything he taught." If someone does think that they are deluding themselves.

Rambling = off. Thanks.

Edited to include: What about, say, me bloging what I experienced at today's seminar? Or me discussing it with a third party who was not in attendance? If I say "so-and-so did that" and it is completly false, or I have said the same thing but included a video, who or what are you going to believe is the truth; what I say along with a snippet of video, or what you experience when you actually attend one of the teacher's seminars?

Last edited by Nick P. : 05-04-2008 at 06:25 PM.

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Old 05-04-2008, 10:20 PM   #19
Ryan Sanford
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Only because there are so many scum with no manners posting videos without the permission of the videoed.
I said scum.
I don't agree with you calling those people "scum."
I recently went to watch one day of a seminar at my dojo. I saw that someone from my dojo was recording the seminar. I took some pictures and video of the seminar, and posted a few 30 second clips of the instructor teaching on youtube. I never asked permission, and it never even crossed my mind that I was doing anything even remotely objectionable. I got a talking to from my sensei soon thereafter who stumbled upon the videos I posted (my youtube account name uses my initials ).

Apparently, the instructor requests that all recorded video be for personal use only, ie, I can just look at it to learn for myself, but I can't post it on youtube for the world. My sensei asked the other person recording the seminar to record it for his own personal use.

Of course, I immediately removed the videos and very sincerely sent an apology e-mail to the seminar instructor, but at the time I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. Being a teenager now, I've essentially grown up with youtube and the like. It seemed quite natural to me to want to share the cool videos I had of the guest instructor! Anyway, that's the last time I'll do that without permission. It was pretty embarassing!

Last edited by Ryan Sanford : 05-04-2008 at 10:23 PM.

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:57 AM   #20
SmilingNage
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Re: Questionable Content

The old "monkey see, monkey do" ethics. "But mom everyone else is posting on you tube" and the age old parental response " If your friends jumped off the Brooklyn, you would too."

It is a common sense thing that this era of Americans seem to be either not taught or flat out disregarded. It is this land of 1000 kings attitude where people feel they can do without regard to fill their own selfish agenda regardless of who they trample upon.

Show some respect for others, and always ask before posting video or pics.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:23 AM   #21
Charles
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
The old "monkey see, monkey do" ethics. "But mom everyone else is posting on you tube" and the age old parental response " If your friends jumped off the Brooklyn, you would too."

It is a common sense thing that this era of Americans seem to be either not taught or flat out disregarded. It is this land of 1000 kings attitude where people feel they can do without regard to fill their own selfish agenda regardless of who they trample upon.

Show some respect for others, and always ask before posting video or pics.
But if everybody is driving 10 above the speed limit then you had better do the same or you'll be causing traffic jams and accidents. And I think that the technical term for "everybody is doing it" is "common law".

Things do change and technology often drives that change. If you don't want to be seen by the public then don't go out in public. If you don't want to be photographed then ask people to not photograph you.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:38 AM   #22
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Questionable Content

I love the "everybody is doing it" defense... I've gotten a couple of speeding tickets in my life when I was going with the flow of traffic 10-15 mph above the posted limit. I was the only one stopped. When I used the "common sense" reason of doing what everyone else was doing, a smile and even some laughter and then, "pay the fine."

I recommend that no one use your advice ("... you had better do the same ...") as a legal defense.

Although I've been burned a few times, I don't have many problems with people that I give permission to video my stuff because they would like to continue to have a relationship and connection with me and the other seniors in our group. I've found that clear, open communication with everyone about filming is the only thing that really works.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:24 PM   #23
SmilingNage
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Re: Questionable Content

Thanks for being proof of my point Mr. Scheid.

We are talking about using photos/vids of teachers without consent. But for your point, yes people do follow the flow of traffic, but the people wont pay your speeding ticket(s) when you get caught. It doesnt make what you are doing right because others are doing it.

Why cause an uncomfortable event; when you could just do the right thing and get permission.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:34 PM   #24
Ryan Sanford
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Re: Questionable Content

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
Why cause an uncomfortable event; when you could just do the right thing and get permission.
I absolutely agree with that. My actions caused an uncomfortable situation with my instructor and the guest instructor. Something as simple as asking permission to post the videos on youtube would have prevented my uncomfortable situation.

Seems pretty simple to me.

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
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