Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-18-2008, 02:02 AM   #51
Al Gutierrez
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Sadly, MMA has become globalized in a short 15 years. It was be "traditional". Is it tried and true? Yes, for those whose capacity is limited. In a real fight all MMA guys would lose to my "hidden knife". Their utility is limited to the ring of the octogon. Their utility does not extend to even to the "street" much less to the "battles of life".
Those are some pretty broad generalizations - and frankly, I don't buy it.

Here's one example from the streets of Bali of MMA's utility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

Compliant training partners, the golden mean and knowledge of angular momentum and other theories all are capable of impressing folks who don't really know any better, but they didn't help Urijah to survive that incident, nor will they help any of us should we find ourselves in some similar situation. It was his MMA training, his conditioning, his experience fighting and preparing to fight for a living that allowed him to escape with his life.

Now Urijah might be an exceptional individual, but I would wager that most MMA practitioners with 1-3 years of training would still fare far better in similar circumstances than most aikido or tai chi practitioners with even 3 or 4 times more experience. With all due respect, I think if you took just practitioners from the dojos/schools represented by readers of this forum, the majority would be exhausted just running at a moderate pace (or doing jumping jacks) for the length of time that Urijah was actually fighting against multiple opponents and running for his life. If you also were to have someone actually hit them repeatedly on the back of the head (never mind the brass knuckles, bottles, and rocks) ask yourself how many in your school could even continue to run for that length of time much less fight back and/or defend themselves effectively using methods practiced in your school or style?

MMA athletes these days train very intensely and are able to perform under extreme duress in part because of their physical training/conditioning, but also because the by-product of that kind of training is also an extraordinary level of mental toughness/confidence. Traditional martial arts training in aikido, tai chi and most other internal arts does little or nothing to prepare it's practitioners to perform under conditions of extreme duress, therefore the odd practitioner/teacher who is able to perform for real in such conditions is likely an exception to the norm and their level of mental toughness/confidence is arguably not a result of their TMA training, but rather from some other experience or perhaps even natural attributes.

As for utility in other areas of life I'd say that those involved in professional MMA these days are doing far better in economic terms than anyone ever imagined even a decade ago.

Al Gtz.
 
Old 05-18-2008, 08:25 AM   #52
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

[quote=Al Gutierrez;206689]Those are some pretty broad generalizations - and frankly, I don't buy it.

MMA athletes these days train very intensely and are able to perform under extreme duress in part because of their physical training/conditioning, but also because the by-product of that kind of training is also an extraordinary level of mental toughness/confidence. Traditional martial arts training in aikido, tai chi and most other internal arts does little or nothing to prepare it's practitioners to perform under conditions of extreme duress, therefore the odd practitioner/teacher who is able to perform for real in such conditions is likely an exception to the norm and their level of mental toughness/confidence is arguably not a result of their TMA training, but rather from some other experience or perhaps even natural attributes.

As for utility in other areas of life I'd say that those involved in professional MMA these days are doing far better in economic terms than anyone ever imagined even a decade ago.

Mr. Al,

You are absolutely correct. I for one, at 51 would not last more than 5 minutes in the octogon. But, then would the MMA guy last if he was in my "choice of environment". Even if he is 6'5, runs 10 miles a day, and wrestles 5 hours a day...he wouldn't be able to survive my technique. Of course, at 51 I only plan on using the technique in less than 30 seconds. It's a bit of a "death touch".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfelZfbZnQs

Could the average 25 year old MMA guy beat me in other aspects:

1) In a courtroom

2) In a long lasting marriage

3) Money in the Bank, a home, rental properties, stock portfolio

4) Rasining children

5) Taking care of sick parents and watching them die.

How many of them have graduated from college much less graduate school. How many have even heard of "phi".
How many of them are still living at home with Mommy and Daddy?

As for economics and making a living. It's a bit like winning the lottery. In five years, after winning the title of MMA champion, the 25 year old is now 30. He has no skills for winning the real battle, "life". And by the time he is 35, he has no money left. He has "spent" it all because he had no knowledge of financial planning.

Now, more interestingly, is the martial artist who could still kick the butt of "anyone" who walks in his doors in his 50's 60's and 70's. This guy is usually a success in many aspects of his life. He fights, not simply with his body, but with his mind.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 10:35 AM   #53
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Even if he is 6'5, runs 10 miles a day, and wrestles 5 hours a day...he wouldn't be able to survive my technique. Of course, at 51 I only plan on using the technique in less than 30 seconds. It's a bit of a "death touch".
So in other words, your skills are useless in practical terms. Killing people for punching you is not legally sound self-defense. It doesn't impress adult martial artists on discussion boards either.
 
Old 05-18-2008, 11:47 AM   #54
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

[quote=Joseph Arriola;206694]
Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Those are some pretty broad generalizations - and frankly, I don't buy it.

MMA athletes these days train very intensely and are able to perform under extreme duress in part because of their physical training/conditioning, but also because the by-product of that kind of training is also an extraordinary level of mental toughness/confidence. Traditional martial arts training in aikido, tai chi and most other internal arts does little or nothing to prepare it's practitioners to perform under conditions of extreme duress, therefore the odd practitioner/teacher who is able to perform for real in such conditions is likely an exception to the norm and their level of mental toughness/confidence is arguably not a result of their TMA training, but rather from some other experience or perhaps even natural attributes.

As for utility in other areas of life I'd say that those involved in professional MMA these days are doing far better in economic terms than anyone ever imagined even a decade ago.

Mr. Al,

You are absolutely correct. I for one, at 51 would not last more than 5 minutes in the octogon. But, then would the MMA guy last if he was in my "choice of environment". Even if he is 6'5, runs 10 miles a day, and wrestles 5 hours a day...he wouldn't be able to survive my technique. Of course, at 51 I only plan on using the technique in less than 30 seconds. It's a bit of a "death touch".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfelZfbZnQs

Could the average 25 year old MMA guy beat me in other aspects:

1) In a courtroom

2) In a long lasting marriage

3) Money in the Bank, a home, rental properties, stock portfolio

4) Rasining children

5) Taking care of sick parents and watching them die.

How many of them have graduated from college much less graduate school. How many have even heard of "phi".
How many of them are still living at home with Mommy and Daddy?

As for economics and making a living. It's a bit like winning the lottery. In five years, after winning the title of MMA champion, the 25 year old is now 30. He has no skills for winning the real battle, "life". And by the time he is 35, he has no money left. He has "spent" it all because he had no knowledge of financial planning.

Now, more interestingly, is the martial artist who could still kick the butt of "anyone" who walks in his doors in his 50's 60's and 70's. This guy is usually a success in many aspects of his life. He fights, not simply with his body, but with his mind.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Someone should repost this on Sherdog or MMA.tv

<gets out the popcorn>
 
Old 05-18-2008, 03:17 PM   #55
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

[quote=Robert John;206705]
Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post

Someone should repost this on Sherdog or MMA.tv

<gets out the popcorn>
Rob,

Any time you are in San Francisco look me up. Come to one of my seminars. But, of course, you probably would like to entice me to come to one of your seminars.

Rob, what do you do for a living, when you aren't on the boards?

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 03:17 PM   #56
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 404
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Could the average 25 year old MMA guy beat me in other aspects:

1) In a courtroom

2) In a long lasting marriage

3) Money in the Bank, a home, rental properties, stock portfolio

4) Rasining children

5) Taking care of sick parents and watching them die.

How many of them have graduated from college much less graduate school. How many have even heard of "phi".
How many of them are still living at home with Mommy and Daddy?
Here we go again?
Courtroom : err ... he could hire a lawyer who could actually spell?
Well, a 25 year-old couldn't possibly beat the awesome Joseph at long lasting marriage.
Money money money. Must be funny. In a rich man's world.
Raisining children. Will sultanas do? Currants? Raisining skills are well known to be underdeveloped until the age of Forty, that 25 year old goon doesn't have a chance, he'll have a make do with slightly shrinkly grapes.
Watching sick parents die? A dubious claim to mastery. What if the evil but fit 25 year-old has healthy parents? Terrible. He loses in 'watching parents die' to the great Turutuhan.
 
Old 05-18-2008, 03:19 PM   #57
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

move over one seat Rob and share that popcorn.

 
Old 05-18-2008, 03:32 PM   #58
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
move over one seat Rob and share that popcorn.
Kevin,

I'm quite disappointed in you. But, then I'm not your father.

Supposedly you are a leader of men someone who supposedly has an open mind. Yet, you are persuaded by "mob" mentality...a bully who joins the gang. I thought you were a real soldier. Instead, you hang around with the "weekend warriors", the intermediates.

You and the rest of your "small pack" attack individuals but are frightened of fighting your own fight. On every board, I've seen the bullying and the reactions. Give me your address and I'll send you and Rob money for popcorn.

Otherwise if either of you is in San Francisco, I invite you to one of my classes where you can teach a class.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 03:41 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Instead, you hang around with the "weekend warriors", the intermediates.
I always thought it was the "intermediates" who blew their own horn the most about what they can do. Sort of like the "empty water can makes the most noise", etc. Maybe I was wrong.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-18-2008, 04:29 PM   #60
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post

Rob, what do you do for a living, when you aren't on the boards?
There's that rude and irrelevant question again.

I don't know what Rob does for a living, neither do I care - at least he doesn't claim to be a Life Master on the internet. If one looks at your videos on YouTube, they are universally rated badly and the comments section is full of hecklers. Here you claim you are being picked on. There seems to be a pattern in the reactions you provoke online. What's the common factor? Trust me, it ain't the rest of the world being jealous of the lofty height at which you think you exist, it's just your attitude and tastelessly self-important posts.
 
Old 05-18-2008, 05:18 PM   #61
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I always thought it was the "intermediates" who blew their own horn the most about what they can do. Sort of like the "empty water can makes the most noise", etc. Maybe I was wrong.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Mike,

You do.

PS Im still waiting to see some of your tapes pushing hands, weapons, or fighting. When???

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 05:32 PM   #62
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
PS Im still waiting to see some of your tapes pushing hands, weapons, or fighting. When???
I think we've been through this before, Joseph. I'm not the one blowing my own horn who feels the need to post videos. If I personally make a point that requires a video of me to clarify that point, rest assured that I will post one. A video because some self-styled expert wants to do a comparison or get into personal contention? I don't feel the least interested or compelled.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-18-2008, 05:53 PM   #63
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think we've been through this before, Joseph. I'm not the one blowing my own horn who feels the need to post videos. If I personally make a point that requires a video of me to clarify that point, rest assured that I will post one. A video because some self-styled expert wants to do a comparison or get into personal contention? I don't feel the least interested or compelled.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

That's good. Well, I am an expert Mike. You can read my articles in Martial Arts Magazines and books. You can look me up in the California Bar Association. You can even call the University of California about my degrees. You can even come to one of my seminars. How about you Mike? (Oh that's right no videos...because you are "just a beginner.)

But, I think you'd enjoy "feeling it". Come to one of my classes when you are on the West Coast and I'll teach you a few things. (Oh but, that's what you tell all the other guys on this board that you bully.)

Mike, do you like sparring with a lawyer. I like teaching you.

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 06:05 PM   #64
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
That's good. Well, I am an expert Mike.
Correction: self-styled expert. It's already been shown that you have no true expertise in some arts you claim, like Tai Chi.

Quote:
You can read my articles in Martial Arts Magazines and books.
Pass.

Quote:
You can look me up in the California Bar Association.
I used to wonder why lawyers have such a reputation, but I note that you and Mr. Mead are both lawyers by trade. Mystery solved.

Quote:
Mike, do you like sparring with a lawyer. I like teaching you.
Wait...you think you are looking better in these exchanges?!? Wow. Talk about self-perception disorder.
 
Old 05-18-2008, 06:13 PM   #65
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Mike, do you like sparring with a lawyer. I like teaching you.
Sadly, I'm a slow learner, Joseph. However, I think you have indeed been teaching a lot of people on this forum.... about you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-18-2008, 06:35 PM   #66
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Sadly, I'm a slow learner, Joseph. However, I think you have indeed been teaching a lot of people on this forum.... about you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

It's not about me Mike. It's all about YOU.

I'm open minded. I'm ready to come to Colorado to pay homage.

Yet, it is so difficult. You keep saying to everyone that you are a "beginner" and then you want us to come to Colorado to learn the real thing. Which is it?

I just want to know more about YOU. I want to know what I am paying for. Are you a real for goodness sake black belter? Perhaps, I should read your website. Now, isn't that reasonable?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 06:44 PM   #67
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
you want us to come to Colorado to learn the real thing.
Cite? Please quote where I have asked or invited someone to come to Colorado. I'd suggest that this is just more of the fantasy stories that you seem to indulge in. Trust me, I have no desire whatsoever to give you any information.

Is there some reason why you feel it is important to drag me and my personal life into a discussion that seems to be mainly about you and your greatness, Joseph? Are you seething about something?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-18-2008, 06:59 PM   #68
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Are you a real for goodness sake black belter?
For goodness sakes... what has the color of one's belt have anything to do with this? 3 pages of self-aggrandizement drivel, personal attacks and little to do with the topic. About time this thread got shut down....

<passes the popcorn>

Ignatius
 
Old 05-18-2008, 07:39 PM   #69
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Mike,

Ok buddy, time for dinner. Time for the kids to take their baths. So, you get the last word as always. Go ahead, more of your passive aggressive attempts at word play. I'll be looking for it tomorrow morning.

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-18-2008, 07:48 PM   #70
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Go ahead, more of your passive aggressive attempts at word play. I'll be looking for it tomorrow morning.
How about for once following the logic. You made an assertion that I was inviting people to Colorado. I asked for a cite, in order to give you a chance, once again, to correct a misstatement by you about me. I'll look for your corrected response or your cite tomorrow morning.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-19-2008, 02:22 AM   #71
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
For goodness sakes... what has the color of one's belt have anything to do with this? 3 pages of self-aggrandizement drivel, personal attacks and little to do with the topic. About time this thread got shut down....

<passes the popcorn>
Anyone want caramel on theirs? I'm about done with the butter topping
<grabs another bag>
 
Old 05-19-2008, 07:38 AM   #72
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Anyone want caramel on theirs? I'm about done with the butter topping
<grabs another bag>
Rob,

You are invited too. Come check out and old man. You young boys are so good talking.

I love the multiple attack. Perhaps I'll teach it to you.

Check out some more of my tapes. But then, you still haven't developed the "internal eye". Talk to me in about twenty years Rob.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-19-2008, 08:22 AM   #73
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
How about for once following the logic. You made an assertion that I was inviting people to Colorado. I asked for a cite, in order to give you a chance, once again, to correct a misstatement by you about me. I'll look for your corrected response or your cite tomorrow morning.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

You are so easy to manipulate. Same arguements. Citations???

You got to start "paying me" to respond to you. Say $500 an hour. Naw, this is just too much fun.

Bring some more of your allies in, Rob Johns and Dan Hardin aren't enough. (Oh but you do the speaking for everyone. You are better then those guys. You are the smarter one.)

But then, I like going against all of you at once. I like the practice. The rest of beginners...well they aren't good enough to play with.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-19-2008, 08:43 AM   #74
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Citations???
I suspect this is about the level of ethics most of us had you pegged at.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-19-2008, 08:51 AM   #75
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
But then, I like going against all of you at once. I like the practice. The rest of beginners...well they aren't good enough to play with.
Sure you do. At first you complained about bullies and getting picked on. Now that you realize your attitude causes universal antagonism, you're going to pretend to like it. Face it, no one is impressed, even if you give yourself the label "grandmaster". Instead of trying one childish tactic after another, why not just find a board where people appreciate endless boasting from someone who obviously isn't as impressive as he thinks he is.
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Law and the use of Aikido. AikiRooster General 31 11-29-2004 09:35 PM
O Sensei starts "No Atemi" Aikido? tedehara Techniques 89 03-18-2004 09:28 AM
Atemi DavidM General 61 06-24-2002 11:04 AM
Effectiveness in self defence CraigJamieson General 25 03-15-2001 07:12 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:40 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate