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Old 05-02-2008, 10:23 PM   #26
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Let's take one discussion...

One thesis is that structure cannot be learned through technique.would the Capoeirist agree? The Kali or Silat practicioner. Might they obtain structure from some combination of music, movement and rythm?[/quote]

Nice...structure from the unseen vibrations. The golden mean...phi.

Sincerely
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-03-2008, 06:05 AM   #27
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Let's take one discussion...

One thesis is that structure cannot be learned through technique.would the Capoeirist agree? The Kali or Silat practicioner. Might they obtain structure from some combination of music, movement and rythm?
Nice...structure from the unseen vibrations. The golden mean...phi.

Sincerely
Joe[/quote]

I guess I see so many of the arguments on the web as generating more heat than light because we think we are talking about the same objective data but in reality, we are not. Underlying the discussion are conflicting value systems. This is where the conflict lies and words just become tender for the fires.
 
Old 05-03-2008, 06:21 AM   #28
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

an acquaintace of my is doing her PhD thesis by giving the Book of Five Rings to a group of Cryps. She is then recording their interpretation of it. As a process, how will this change her. How will it change them?
 
Old 05-03-2008, 07:15 AM   #29
SeiserL
 
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

IMHO, learning to capture just the body or the mind is good and works some to most of the time. But the art is to learn to capture both the body and the mind.

Its a harmonious unification things. Happens every time I hear an either/or choice.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 05-03-2008, 08:45 AM   #30
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, learning to capture just the body or the mind is good and works some to most of the time. But the art is to learn to capture both the body and the mind.

Its a harmonious unification things. Happens every time I hear an either/or choice.
Sensei L,

In/out up/down...harmony and disharmony. One can learn to appreciate happiness and prospersity through the actual experience of saddness and poverty. Sadly, most people stay in their "hated jobs", "bad relationships" and unfullfillling llives.

Perhaps, we learn the same thing about "harmony". Many seek it...but, only in words. Living harmony means understanding fully the truths of disharmony. Like light, it (harmony) shines better in knowing darkness.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-03-2008, 12:48 PM   #31
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, learning to capture just the body or the mind is good and works some to most of the time. But the art is to learn to capture both the body and the mind.

Its a harmonious unification things. Happens every time I hear an either/or choice.
Sensei L

Good to hear your voice on this theme.

Chris
 
Old 05-03-2008, 09:57 PM   #32
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Chris,

In the last several years I have been trying to reconcile "phi" the golden mean that Pythagoras lectured, in terms of "fractals" and my martial practice.

Everything is my practice is based on to the 1 to the 1 creating the 2 to the 1 and the 2 creating the 3 proceeding to the 5 to the 8 and then eventually repeating itself in smaller and smaller fractals.

The harmony between the dancers/opponents is created by the the initial contact. The 1 to the 2. The rhythm of the 3 provides the dance of continuous contact. The 5 creates energy. The 8 is power.

1,2...123, 1,2, 123. One Two cha cha cha.

As such, when you watch my students, they are moving to an internal metronome creating a connection to their opponents by finding their rhythm and then striking within the pattern of their established beat. (on simple terms it is the creation of connection to the breaking of that connection).

Listen to the drum beat. Look for the co-ordination of the drum beat to the "martial technique". In this tape you hear the "established beat" of the drums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhTianSJfI

The proponents are actually "dancing" to the movements. Yet, the strikes are freestyle. I am performing jazz.

Sincerely
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-03-2008, 10:28 PM   #33
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

I shared this thread with my friend Shawn. 17 years a fisherman in Alaska, never had a driver's lisence, he is a Kali student and Arnold champion. He smiled. He also understands.

It can be difficult for the Carrtesian mind to reclaim unification...
i.e. Their connectedness to natural rythms, the ebb and flow of time without watches, the purity of living without domination, the true experience that there is ultimately one organic whole.
 
Old 05-03-2008, 10:36 PM   #34
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

when you mentioned PHI a couple of weeks ago, I was unsure what you meant. I look forward to hearing more when you care to share it.
 
Old 05-03-2008, 10:39 PM   #35
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

This certainly belongs in this thread:

Quote:
MONK GLOATS OVER YOGA CHAMPIONSHIP
-- 'I am the serenest!' he says

LHASA, TIBET-Employing the brash style that first brought him to prominence, SriDhananjai Bikram won the fifth annual International Yogi Competition yesterday with a world-record point total of 873.6.

"I am the serenest!" Bikram shouted to the estimated crowd of 20,000 yoga fans, vigorously pumping his fists. "No one is serener than Sri Dhananjai Bikram-I am the greatest monk of all time!"

Bikram averaged 1.89 breaths a minute during the two-hour competition, nearly .3 fewer than his nearest competitor, second-place finisher and two-time champion Sri Salil "The Hammer" Gupta.

The heavily favored Gupta was upset after the loss. "I should be able to beat that guy with one lung tied," Gupta said. "I'm beside myself right now, and I don't mean trans-bodily."

Bikram got off to a fast start at the Lhasa meet, which like most major competitions, is a six-event affair. In the first event, he attained total consciousness (TC) in just 2 minutes, 34 seconds, and set the tone for the rest of the meet by repeatedly shouting, "I'm blissful! You blissful?! I'm blissful!" to the other yogis.

Bikram, 33, burst onto the international yoga scene with a gold-mandala performance at the 1994 Bhutan Invitational. At that competition he premiered his aggressive style, at one point in the flexibility event sticking his middle toes out at the other yogis. While no prohibition exists against such behavior, according to Yoga League Commissioner Swami Prabhupada, such behavior is generally considered "unBuddhalike."

"I don't care what the critics say," Bikram said. "Sri Bikram is just gonna go out there and do Sri Bikram's own yoga thing."

Before the Bhutan meet, Bikram had never placed better than fourth. Many said he had forsaken rigorous training for the celebrity status accorded by his Bhutan win, endorsing Nike's new line of prayer mats and supposedly dating the Hindu goddess Shakti. But his performance this week will regain for him the number one computer ranking and earn him new respect, as well as for his coach Mahananda Vasti, the controversial guru some have called Bikram's "guru."

"My special training diet for Bikram of one super-charged, carbo-loaded grain of rice per day was essential to his win," Vasti said.

The defeated Gupta denied that Bikram's taunting was a factor in his inability to attain TC. "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented. "I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul."

In the second event, flexibility, Bikram maintained the lead by
supporting himself on his index fingers for the entire 15 minutes while touching the back of his skull to his lower spine. The feat was matched by Gupta, who first used the position at the 1990 Tokyo Zen-Off.

"That's my meditative position of spiritual ecstasy, not his," remarked Gupta. "He stole my thunder."

Bikram denied the charge, saying, "Gupta's been talking like that ever since he was a 3rd century Egyptian slave-owner."

Nevertheless, a strong showing by Gupta in the third event, the shotput, placed him within a lotus petal of the lead at the competition's halfway point.

But event number four, the contemplation of unanswerable riddles known as koans, proved the key to victory for Bikram.

The koan had long been thought the weak point of his spiritual arsenal, but his response to today's riddle-"Show me the face you had before you were born"-was reportedly "extremely illuminative," according to Commissioner Prabhupada.

While koan answers are kept secret from the public for fear of exposing the uninitiated multitudes to the terror of universal truth, insiders claim his answer had Prabhupada and the two other judges "highly enlightened."

With the event victory, Bikram built himself a nearly insurmountable lead, one he sustained through the yak-milk churn and breathing events to come away with the upset victory.
 
Old 05-03-2008, 10:53 PM   #36
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I shared this thread with my friend Shawn. 17 years a fisherman in Alaska, never had a driver's lisence, he is a Kali student and Arnold champion. He smiled. He also understands.

It can be difficult for the Carrtesian mind to reclaim unification...
i.e. Their connectedness to natural rythms, the ebb and flow of time without watches, the purity of living without domination, the true experience that there is ultimately one organic whole.
MTL, Chris

We actually see this in chinese "lion dancing" and in "brazilian coepoira". The dummer is the lead in the dance. It is not simply the dance/fight between the proponents. It is the direction of the drummer and the audience as a whole.

The vibrations, the rhythym and the energy (life force) of all elements create a unity...a harmony if you will.

Sincerely
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-04-2008, 10:06 PM   #37
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Shawn is naturally hard to throw, all 160 pounds of him. Partly due to his devotion to cycling, partly due to his Kali and Silat.

Yet at times, he will take ukeme only to "reverse" the throw or simply to continue the fight on the ground like braer rabbit being thrown into the briar patch. A young Aikidoka found this out over weekend practice during some lunch-break scrimmage with bokken and Escrima stick.

Form and formlessness. Structure and flexibility. Assumptions made and challenged. A great performance by one who knows the ways of rythm, flow and non-contention. The way of the fisherman's knife.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 08:06 AM   #38
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

MTL, Chris,

Compliance in Throwing:

Ok...so yesterday we were using the cane, staff and the 3 sectional staff in joint locks and throws...

When you use a "weapon" the fulcrum and the level and the changes in weight distribution become "visually clear". The "stick" shows you where to apply the lever and fulcrum. Best yet, it "multiplies" your force in applying the wrist technique or the arm bar, leg bar or neck bar.

Following with a change in the distribution of weight a "throw" occurs.

The issue for my students in this particular practice was the "fall". Many attempted to avoid the "throw and the fall" by "resisting". Since our environment is "mat" free we rarely take the technique to the actual "fall" to the ground. As such, they have naturally been trained to resist the throw and fall.

Falling--

However, I explained to them that in the "throwing arts" the first thing you learn to do is "fall". As such, I would counter their counters and throw them to the ground none-the-less. They didn't like it.

I explained that the reason falling was taught "first" in throwing arts was for purposes of self defense (how not to get hurt when thrown to a hard surface). Falling then becomes "compliance". The more you resist, the greater the stored energy...the greater the impact when the resistence is released.

As such, you must learn "compliance" in falling as a matter of self protection.

Interestingly, we were in the plaza in Oakland with all the other tai chi and gung fu groups as the "lessons" unfolded. Just after our practice, a group of talented skate boarders arrived on the scene. They were performing jumps and stunts. The techniques did not always result with the perfection of re-landing on the board. I watched as they took "falls".

I told my students to stop their "after practice" conversation and watch the skateboarders. I asked them "Who is the best? And why is he the best?"

"Now, watch what happens when they "fall to the ground", I continued.

They could see readily that when the skate boarders fell to the hard concrete surfaces their bodies became soft and resilient. The skateboarders absorbed the concrete and rolled to their feet. It was the best exhibit of "falling" for self protection that I had seen in a long time. More boggling to my mind, was the fact that hey had all learned to fall naturally.

Sincerely
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-05-2008, 08:58 AM   #39
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Necessity breeds.......

Shawn has an incredible ability to keep his center of gravity alightned with his stance and base. Reduce his bas, he has created another one with low Silat stance work.

But what came first, his time on the ocean, gaffing, hauling and cutting fish while standing on a small playform being pitched and rolled by ocean waves gave him an incredible sense of structure and balance. He probably chose Kali and Silat because (1) it was a blade system and (2) it resonated with the way he already moved.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 12:06 PM   #40
phitruong
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
when you mentioned PHI a couple of weeks ago, I was unsure what you meant. I look forward to hearing more when you care to share it.
You guys need to stop use me in vain. I am golden because I was born that way, being yellow skin and all. And I am also a mean bastard. But you didn't have to say it.

Also, I don't think I want to be shared between you two gentlemen; my wife would kill me if she found out.

First I never got any sleep in calculus class, now this. I think I'll track down them greek folks and show them my chi in an upsilon manner.

meanwhile, you guys need to stop using my name or I'll track you both down. It will be "mano o mano, man to man, you and my GUARDS!!!".
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:18 PM   #41
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

meanwhile, you guys need to stop using my name or I'll track you both down. It will be "mano o mano, man to man, you and my GUARDS!!!". [/quote]

Phi,

You need to brush up not only on you geometry but also your spanish. "Mano" means hand in Spanish. It comes from not only the Spanish but from the latin as in "manipulate". As such, the quote is more akin to "hand to hand" combat.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-05-2008, 03:53 PM   #42
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
You guys need to stop use me in vain. I am golden because I was born that way, being yellow skin and all. And I am also a mean bastard. But you didn't have to say it.

Also, I don't think I want to be shared between you two gentlemen; my wife would kill me if she found out.

First I never got any sleep in calculus class, now this. I think I'll track down them greek folks and show them my chi in an upsilon manner.

meanwhile, you guys need to stop using my name or I'll track you both down. It will be "mano o mano, man to man, you and my GUARDS!!!".
Phi,

Your comment was pure genious, hillariously funny and on point. Cudos. Thankyou.

But is was interesting how a term like "pure heart" spawned such diverse reactions.

No one asked what I meant, many assumed a variety of things.... few had a positive connotation.

"Pure Heart" has to do with the way some folks react to boundaries that have been invaded. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, "I'm OK, You're not-type thinking" or any other form of heirarchy.

Here is Joe Arriola's expression of "pure heart".

Quote:
As for losing my temper and punching back when attacked. Well, I am a bit old fashioned. I think a man should protect his family, his values and his beliefs.
Here is Reverend Joshua Wright's

Quote:
"And why am I speaking out now? In our community, we have something called playing the dozens. If you think I'm going to let you talk about my mama...
(LAUGHTER)
WRIGHT: ... And her religious tradition and my daddy and his religious tradition and my grandma, you got another think coming.
Understand, when you're talking about my mama, once again, and talking about my faith tradition once again, how long do you let somebody talk about your faith tradition before you speak up and say something in defense of -- this is not an attack on Jeremiah Wright. Once again, let me say it again. This is an attack on the black church."
Wutang Clan's "pure heart" can bee seen in RZA and GZA's
Backronymns:

(1) "Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game" and

(2)"Wisdom, Universe, Truth, Allah, Nation, and God"
their

In the primer I bought before working within a Japanese corporation "Doing Business with the Japanese", there was a statement that Japanese expect that if "one" think is said, you should understand "ten". How can we understand the ten without doing some pretty meticulous analysis and passing it through the haragei process?

You cannot understand the ten by just assuming. And if we are not meticulous about words and verbal transactions, how can we hope to see more deeply into technique?
 
Old 05-06-2008, 11:13 AM   #43
phitruong
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Phi,

"Pure Heart" has to do with the way some folks react to boundaries that have been invaded. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, "I'm OK, You're not-type thinking" or any other form of heirarchy.

Here is Joe Arriola's expression of "pure heart".

Quote:
As for losing my temper and punching back when attacked. Well, I am a bit old fashioned. I think a man should protect his family, his values and his beliefs.

Here is Reverend Joshua Wright's

Wutang Clan's "pure heart" can bee seen in RZA and GZA's
Backronymns:

(1) "Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game" and

(2)"Wisdom, Universe, Truth, Allah, Nation, and God"
their

In the primer I bought before working within a Japanese corporation "Doing Business with the Japanese", there was a statement that Japanese expect that if "one" think is said, you should understand "ten". How can we understand the ten without doing some pretty meticulous analysis and passing it through the haragei process?

You cannot understand the ten by just assuming. And if we are not meticulous about words and verbal transactions, how can we hope to see more deeply into technique?
I am ok with the protection of the family thing. However, I don't have the need to protect my values or beliefs. In my opinion, only the weak needs protection.

the Japanese isn't the only one who had the idea. The Chinese and the Vietnamese said the same thing. The Vietnamese version: ho.c mo^.t bie^'t mu+o+`i. Direct translation: learn one, understand ten.

Me, I don't like to use big words, because I was a low-born farmer and we liked to keep thing simple. Folks understand simple words much better, at least I am. Simple words like "don't step in the cow shit" or "don't stand behind the horse" or "take this spade here and dig a hole there". very easy to understand. I used the same approach with martial arts such as aikido: keep it plain and simple.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 11:52 AM   #44
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
I am ok with the protection of the family thing. However, I don't have the need to protect my values or beliefs. In my opinion, only the weak needs protection.

Me, I don't like to use big words, because I was a low-born farmer and we liked to keep thing simple. Folks understand simple words much better, at least I am. Simple words like "don't step in the cow shit" or "don't stand behind the horse" or "take this spade here and dig a hole there". very easy to understand. I used the same approach with martial arts such as aikido: keep it plain and simple.
Phi,

Hmmm...well at least you owned the land.

My father was a farm worker, my uncles were farmworkers and janitors and I paid for college by spending my summers in the fields.

As for martial arts...I agree...and disagree. I agree, in that its all about "being able to use your technique". I disagree in that the fire of "combat" teaches us that life is complex and that we must always strive "to learn".

Most certainly if I'm ever in your area I'd love to cross shovels...manure or manure...mano o mano.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-06-2008, 12:32 PM   #45
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Compliance and Force

When you get a brand new student they are almost always compliant. They just want to learn. When you get a student who has practiced another style...you get two kinds. You get those who will "resist", because they are testing what they learned from the other style. You also get those who continue to be open minded.

Those who "resist" are challenging the teacher, verbally or in fact in technique. If the teacher is good, this is a good thing. He welcomes, the challenge. He demonstrates his skill in front of the new student and his following.

If the teacher fails in the demonstration, it should teach him something. One, if he does not demonstrate his skill...he is reflecting his fear and insecurity. He must realize that he is suffering the "illness" of fear and insecurity. He must act to rectify. Two, if he fails to successfully demonstrate and loses against the challenger, he must not lie to himself about his supposed skills. He again must rectify by "getting better".

As such, the resistance/challenge should not be seen as something bad. It should be seen as an opportunity to "improve and learn".

Do I still experience "fear and insecurity" after all these years? Yes, of course.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 
Old 05-06-2008, 06:53 PM   #46
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Great post Tuturihan

Chris
 
Old 05-06-2008, 06:54 PM   #47
Chris Parkerson
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Great post Tuturuhan

Chris
 
Old 05-08-2008, 02:23 AM   #48
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
This certainly belongs in this thread:
Holy cow! That was funny... No idea where that is from, but I would guess The Onion.
 
Old 05-08-2008, 07:32 AM   #49
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
Holy cow! That was funny... No idea where that is from, but I would guess The Onion.
http://dananau.com/wabe/humor/monkgloats.pdf

 
Old 05-17-2008, 11:43 AM   #50
tuturuhan
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Re: The Uke, Compliance and Qi

The mathematician Godel's theory: Some problems cannot be solved.

Yesterday, I was teaching one of my private students. He is, was, and will be a mathematician who trained at Caltech and worked at Lawrence Livermore Lab. He has been teaching Tai Chi Chuan for the last twenty years. He is a shared student of the "incredible Wilson Ng" and myself.

As always, our practices are filled with "tradition, an analysis of tradition, the structure of theory and concept, and going beyond". Lately, I have been teaching him how to use the 3 sectional staff "practically for fighting" using baqua footwork and tai chi chuan senstitivity.

At the end of practice I showed him a "math" book I had been reading. It is supposedly a book for "lay people" that uses math to explain the world, its origins and functions. Of course, given "the math" it is a book far beyond my level of "math" expertise. After gazing through it, Geoff stated, the true understanding of the concepts are far beyond the grasp of most "math" adepts.

I felt better about my deficiencies. Yet, strikingly I felt I was "seeing" in the math concepts everything I had, am learning, and will learn about martial arts.

Tradition is for ever encapsulated in plexiglass. Yet, it too changes over the years. Everything that is mass reverts to energy. It may take 10 million years but, it was revert. Interestlingy, most of the "tradition" that most of the people are talking about is less than 150 years old. The words tai chi and ba qua are much older, but, their moniker to the styles of tai chi chuan and ba qua are not more than 175 years old.

Sadly, MMA has become globalized in a short 15 years. It was be "traditional". Is it tried and true? Yes, for those whose capacity is limited. In a real fight all MMA guys would lose to my "hidden knife". Their utility is limited to the ring of the octogon. Their utility does not extend to even to the "street" much less to the "battles of life".

As such, it is not tradition I look for. It is utility. As such, I respect tradition in hopes that I might find utility. (Remember, even if the style had deadly fighters and techniques...if the student lacks capacity and capability the style is useless)

Perhaps, Godel is correct...some things simply can't be answered.

After we finished our lessons, Geoff talked about his classmate who had learned the same tai chi he had learned. He said "Ken teaches his tai chi in exactly the same way he learned it from Wilson. He never diverts. He fails to be "dynamic".

I replied "Then he is stuck. He will never understand the "infinite uses". What's worse...is that he never learned it correctly in the first place.

All said, this thread has left me in a quandry. According to "pure math" some people explore its lofty heights will no thought of its application. I have in the last several years been "stubborn" and stuck in my ways about "the utility" of everything we study. I have much to think about as I reframe my techniques and beliefs "given the new information"

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
 

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