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Old 04-27-2008, 07:15 PM   #26
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Oh yeah, those kujukenbo guys sound like a hoot. Are you still in contact?
No, too rough for me.

Nighclubs bouncing isn't my bag.

Chris
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:17 PM   #27
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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No, too rough for me.

Nighclubs bouncing isn't my bag.

Chris
Wooorrrd.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:05 AM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Maybe you guys find this clip interesting:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=yyO-jptgjx8

btw,

Ellis Amdur wrote:
Quote:
As for ikkyo, it's my understanding that it's adapted from ippon-dori, the first tech in Daito-ryu.
Watch it here:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=6PmhwHst4po

Note to self: Send memo to Santa. Subject: Amdur's book coming soon.

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Old 04-28-2008, 04:42 AM   #29
Timothy WK
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

If we're talking about the functional origins of Daito-ryu/Aikido, I find these videos very intriguing, though I'm not sure the significance of the similarities:

Komagawa Kaishin-ryu juttejutsu (particularly at 0:14)
Ikkaku-ryu juttejutsu

(More discussion over at E-budo.)

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:43 AM   #30
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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In short, I feel like I shouldn't be practicing something (or perhaps more accurately, can't meaningfully practice something) unless I have some clue what I'm doing.

Imagine if judo throws were practiced as slow-motion tai chi type solo movements, and there was no concept of randori or paired practice. It might not even be clear that you were practicing throws: people might assume they were peculiar strikes. It'd be very hard to really understand judo, because you'd have no idea where the movements came from. "Is this really a good kick?" you might skeptically ask about o-soto-gari, seeing only a forward leg swing followed by a return. You might
I think like you think ... but I just did it without having a clue and started trying to figure it all out. Dunno how far I am down the road but few try to figure things out and instead wait for instruction that ... never comes. And that was my 500th post ...

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Old 04-28-2008, 08:14 AM   #31
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Quote:
Paul wrote:
In short, I feel like I shouldn't be practicing something (or perhaps more accurately, can't meaningfully practice something) unless I have some clue what I'm doing. ... Imagine if judo throws were practiced as slow-motion tai chi type solo movements, and there was no concept of randori or paired practice. It might not even be clear that you were practicing throws: people might assume they were peculiar strikes. It'd be very hard to really understand judo, because you'd have no idea where the movements came from.
I think like you think ... but I just did it without having a clue and started trying to figure it all out. Dunno how far I am down the road but few try to figure things out and instead wait for instruction that ... never comes.
Intellectual understanding is overrated (my interest therein notwithstanding). It is a DO. The point of the art is to do it. Even in DTR, there are no shortcuts, and practice techniques are merely set-piece studies. That is not to say that critical thinking is not necessary -- it is. But the thinking required need only be as much or as little intellectual as the mind of the person doing the thinking -- ruthless self-criticism of performance by whatever rubric seems best to you is the requirement.
Quote:
Yukiyoshi Sagawa from "Clear Power" wrote:
The secret is in always thinking about it. The reason no one progresses or gets any better, stronger is because no one thinks. They forget about what they do in between practices. ...You must train the body, think and have the techniques "seep out" from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while innovating yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn't nearly enough time. ... . You don't do something simply because so and so said so. If you simply go through life by simply thinking you can copy people you'll never get anywhere. The only person that can do this is you. You must create your own understanding for yourself. Take Aiki for example. There is no way to really teach this. Even if I could point at something that is Aiki I can't put it into words.
Amdur has a valuable take on the secrets hidden in the basics of aikido training (as O Sensei said in his Doka) . From hints in earlier articles it will be interesting to see this elaborated in his book. But what many people are already missing -- is the binary feedback structure in the training itself.

Do kokyu undo and do waza.

Do empty hand and do weapons.

Do partnered and do solo.

Think very carefully and critically about what is different between each of these paired forms of training.

If waza is not like kokyu undo or kokyu undo is not like waza
-- do them again.

If empty hand is not like weapons or weapons is not like empty hand
-- do them again.

If partnered is not like solo, or solo is not like partnered
-- do them again.

Wash:Rinse:Repeat. It is a pendulum swing of counter-correcting error. Every time is different. You will over-correct or under-correct in every case. With continued iteration the magnitude of opposed errors reduces and the pendulum falls more toward the minimal energy regime, i.e.-- approaching aiki (in the limit, for the calculus-minded among us.).

Some lineages place relative emphasis on different pairs of these opposing elements, or on one or the other of the elements in the pairs. I have had the benefit of seeing all of these elements in relative emphasis in living and training in various places. From my experience, if your progress in training seems lacking to you, and is missing or seems to you weak in any of the elements above, do not fault your lineage, do not fault your teachers, do not fault your fellow students, nor anyone else. Do yourself a favor -- go find them and do them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:52 AM   #32
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

In "Clear Clear Instructions to the Excellent Art of Wrestling"by Nicolaes Petter, Amsterdam 1674, you can find, in its chapter about knife defense, the old punch to the face and wrestling underhook (when knife is still sheathed) but also a shihonage and a yonkyo like technique for when the knife has been drawn.

Similar problems, similar answers all across the world.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 04-28-2008 at 08:58 AM.

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Old 04-28-2008, 11:29 AM   #33
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

If the techniques chosen for Aikido were centerd on weapon taking, it seems that the techniques should start with nage grabbing and uke, and not nage being grabbed.

Looking at the forms, it seems that the majority of them come from uke grabbing, and nage responding to the grab.

If you look at a technique like the Katate dori tai no henka Kokyu nage, where you tai no henka to the katate dori grab, then extend forward and throw uke in a forward roll. If uke simply lets go of your hand, he can avoid the throw, and take a superior position behind you.

This throw seems foolish unless uke has a reason that he MUST hold your hand. It's not only logical for him to let go, it's natural. So why would he HAVE to hold your hand, even if it means taking the fall .

Looking at Nikyo through rokyo, you can see an emphasis on wrist technique. The MMA crowd will quickly tell you that getting a wrist lock on someone is hard to do, and not too effective. They are correct. Not that wrist locks cannot be done, and not that wrist technique can't work, but they are, to use a cliche', low percentage.

However when clearing your weapon hand those wrist techniques are 100% indispensable. We train this sort of thing at my school, and those techniques come up constantly, they seldom have the finish as is seen in the forms, but they always work beautifully.

While I agree that the techniques work wonderfully for weapon taking, the forms, would suggest that they are more likely weapon retention.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 04-28-2008 at 11:34 AM.

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Old 04-28-2008, 11:34 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Hi Chris,

I have often heard you say this over the years, and it still rings true.

Best,
Ron (context is everything)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:41 AM   #35
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If you look at a technique like the Katate dori tai no henka Kokyu nage, where you tai no henka to the katate dori grab, then extend forward and throw uke in a forward roll. If uke simply lets go of your hand, he can avoid the throw, and take a superior position behind you.
The trick is to lock uke up so he is unable to let go.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:17 PM   #36
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If the techniques chosen for Aikido were centerd on weapon taking, ...
If.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If you look at a technique like the Katate dori tai no henka Kokyu nage, where you tai no henka to the katate dori grab, then extend forward and throw uke in a forward roll. If uke simply lets go of your hand, he can avoid the throw, and take a superior position behind you.
Well, he's warding with the arm in waki against an otherwise free shot to the short ribs or underarm nerve plexus with the elbow or hand. If he lets go the hand its a different kokyunage ... Plus, he gets the elbow in the face with the reverse kokyu nage (if he drops or allows to overcarry his arm) or, (if he raises the arm) you get the rib shot and carry his arm up and over into modified ikkyo omote (if he doesnt turn toward you), or further up and back into sumi otoshi ura, (if he does). If he keeps the arm just where it is then you close it up and koshi nage omote (turning toward you) or aiki otoshi ura (turning away) . If he lets go to try to recover late, after the throw has begun. you just irimi, wrapping around under the arm into a modified kaiten-nage or disregard it altogether for men-nage.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This throw seems foolish unless uke has a reason that he MUST hold your hand. It's not only logical for him to let go, it's natural. So why would he HAVE to hold your hand, even if it means taking the fall .
But he does, so it isn't, and yes, showing the weapon in nage's hand makes it ever so much more clear.
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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
While I agree that the techniques work wonderfully for weapon taking, the forms, would suggest that they are more likely weapon retention.
Yes, win by keeping yours or win by taking his. In-yo. Same - same, just opposite. So?

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-28-2008 at 01:20 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:22 PM   #37
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
The trick is to lock uke up so he is unable to let go.
The trick is not minding whether he lets go or not before you can lock him up.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:52 PM   #38
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
In "Clear Clear Instructions to the Excellent Art of Wrestling"by Nicolaes Petter, Amsterdam 1674, you can find, in its chapter about knife defense, the old punch to the face and wrestling underhook (when knife is still sheathed) but also a shihonage and a yonkyo like technique for when the knife has been drawn.
Thanks for that post Demetrio, exactly what I was thinking.
Talhoffer, Ringeck, all the late medieval manuals.

Weapons (more importantly the possibility of weapons) make arm-twisty stuff most applicable even where it might be less applicable in strictly unarmed combat.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:34 PM   #39
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
In "Clear Clear Instructions to the Excellent Art of Wrestling"by Nicolaes Petter, Amsterdam 1674, ....
That link is a gem - got any more?

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Old 04-29-2008, 03:39 AM   #40
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
That's an interesting video. However, while it suggests perhaps the kinesthetic origins of that technique, I'm not sure if it shows its -functional- origins. Perhaps that's a good sword technique, but is it a good throwing technique? To use a somewhat facetious example, you could take a very good tennis swing, and then convert it into a punch. It might not be a very good punch.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I ran into this video a while ago, and also found it potentially relevant. Ikkyo as a means of exposing the side to a weapon strike. I remember something like this came up when (after reading Chris Hein's arguments about weapons in aikido) I tried some tanto-using randori with a friend.

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I think like you think ... but I just did it without having a clue and started trying to figure it all out. Dunno how far I am down the road but few try to figure things out and instead wait for instruction that ... never comes. And that was my 500th post ...
I agree that it's important to give these things some thought.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Intellectual understanding is overrated (my interest therein notwithstanding). It is a DO. The point of the art is to do it.
I could imagine a performance art "do" of aikido, sure. Really, you could do that with any set of movements at all: practice them for their own sake. There is nothing wrong with this. (Kyudo comes to mind.) However, with budo, I tend to follow the late Furuya-sensei's formula of do/jutsu/gaku. Aikido is a Way: a Way centered around fighting techniques. Now, these fighting techniques are not just practiced for their own sake, any more than someone learns about old black-powder rifles for the sake of making an army. But if I were a gun enthusiast whose passion was old black-powder rifles, I'd want to learn how to use them just like a historic user would have.

While I think we might have different perspectives on aikido, maybe this kind of inquiry could still be interesting to you at least as an idle curiosity. I don't see any reason for fighting over it.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Similar problems, similar answers all across the world.
More and more, I think that goals, rather than techniques, define arts. E.g., sumo wrestlers are not bad American wrestlers, they're just aiming for a different goal: knocking someone down or pushing them out of a ring as a "fall" rather than a pin or what-have-you. I think that if you gave a set of judo rules to a bunch of untrained people and locked them in a room for fifty years, you'd probably end up recreating at least most of the curriculum. They're just good methods for throwing someone in a jacket.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If the techniques chosen for Aikido were centerd on weapon taking, it seems that the techniques should start with nage grabbing and uke, and not nage being grabbed.

Looking at the forms, it seems that the majority of them come from uke grabbing, and nage responding to the grab.
(...)
Looking at Nikyo through rokyo, you can see an emphasis on wrist technique. The MMA crowd will quickly tell you that getting a wrist lock on someone is hard to do, and not too effective. They are correct. Not that wrist locks cannot be done, and not that wrist technique can't work, but they are, to use a cliche', low percentage.

However when clearing your weapon hand those wrist techniques are 100% indispensable. We train this sort of thing at my school, and those techniques come up constantly, they seldom have the finish as is seen in the forms, but they always work beautifully.

While I agree that the techniques work wonderfully for weapon taking, the forms, would suggest that they are more likely weapon retention.
I'll say it again: I think this theory has real promise.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Weapons (more importantly the possibility of weapons) make arm-twisty stuff most applicable even where it might be less applicable in strictly unarmed combat.
As noted above, I think this is a pretty likely theory for the functional origins of the techniques that were used to create aikido.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 04-29-2008 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:43 AM   #41
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt2GH...eature=related

Here is a clip of Kondo Sensei. The weapon relation seems much more evident to me when you look at Daito ryu.

Can anyone, who speaks Japanese, translate roughly what he's saying at about 1:27. He's saying something about exposing the side during the ikkyo.

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Old 04-29-2008, 10:08 AM   #42
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

My Japanese sucks, but he his talking about drawing and thrusting with a short blade into the weak point indicated and that is represented by using a one knuckle punch.
Standard presentation for the technique.

-Doug Walker
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:41 PM   #43
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

The technique is ippon-dori. The first standing waza of Ikkajo. Ueshiba picked it for his ikkyo.
The idea is to stop the opponents sword strike and cause kuzushi. Yeah, good luck with that! The punch is supposed to be a knife strike to the upper ribs/armpit area. Then you switch to a wrist grab and end with a knee and a motion like a spear thrust (with his arm as the spear) to plant him. Overly complicated and marginal at best against a weapon- never mind bare-handed. There are other Koryu with similar moves done far more simply and directly with a blade controlling the blade-Takenouchi is one, Sho-sho ryu another. Overall the percentage of probability done bare-handed is ridiculous.
That particular line of DR shares nothing in common with its jujutsu waza to the other schools. As it is, many of the forms are done stiffly, and are many times inconsistant with other forms of Koryu jujutsu. Common discussions among the more learned crowd are that they appear either fabricated by someone unfamiliar with armed fighting, and or armored fighting, or an attempt at using aiki by someone lacking those particular skills. It's as if they are stuck in the middle of trying to be something they are not. DR is frequently criticized for many of the same reasons as Aikido in the Koryu community. And for some very good reasons.

DR and the sword
Like aikido were one to assume DR people know anything about the sword is hilariously awry. Unless they trained in a koryu-they don't have a clue. Case in point: during the 50 yr. celebration with all schools gathered, Kondo was chastised by Mochizuki for daring to even appear with a sword in his hand (to demonstrsate shiho-nage). Mochizuki boomed that "You Daito ryu people don't know anything about the sword!" He told his men to go get their swords out of their cars, and then did a short demonstration.
Kondo was humble enough to share that story on his first trip to the U.S.

Recently a long time student left DR for the above reasons. As a Koryu of cohesive school, the art is a mess, and no one had the real koryu weapons skills they so often talk about to even fashion any sort of meaningful defense against them. Grabbing the wrists of someone cutting you with a sword and reversing their shoulder while opening them for a thrust is just plain ridiculous. Unless the swordsman was a...well...inexperienced hobbyist-you'd get killed.
I could enter a list of prominent Koryu teachers and their private reviews of DR, but if they wanted to make it public, they either already have or have no interest in doing so.

Consistency in Mokuroku and transmission
Were one to try and define Daito ryu as a Koryu, or a cohesive, school with a supposed linear transmission, with a cogent consistant catalogue, they would fail. It is not as if the schools are doing similar but somewhat different syllabary. They are completely different. In essence they are different schools. IME all based on the few who attained real internal skills recording and teaching the various ways the Uke jump or react from the power. Even today teachers are creating/discovering/changing as they grow in power and sensitivity..
With the the remaining schools a technically cohesive mess one to another- the only choice is to find the better teachers who have aiki (internal power) instead of just jujutsu. And of those, find ones who can and will teach. This may be allot more difficult than you think.

Functional origins of techniques
The power of DR is in its body method, not in the pretzel logic. The functional "origins" are unknown, and explanations for "them" (since "they" are all over the place) are as varied as the five DR schools waza are. It is probably wiser to consider the explanations for these incredibly inconsistent techniques as unsupported legend, rather than unchanged and cohesive, waza transmitted down through time.

Last edited by DH : 04-29-2008 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:57 PM   #44
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

"Quote: Overly complicated and marginal at best against a weapon- never mind bare-handed. There are other Koryu with similar moves done far more simply and directly with a blade controlling the blade-Takenouchi is one, Sho-sho ryu another. Overall the percentage of probability done bare-handed is ridiculous.

IMO as such, an adept should practice with weapons and then transmit the knowledge of the weapons to the bare-hand. Today, present day practitioners do it backward. They don't practice with weapons and assume incorrectly that their bare-hand is equal or superior rather then de-evolved to the practitioner who uses the weapons. (And when they finally pick up the weapons..."they" model their poorly skilled bare-hand technique)

Thank you for explaining how the technique was "originally" practiced against a knife, sword and spear.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:18 PM   #45
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Paul there isn't an answer! Each Technique can be used in many different situations. Ikkyo is used by police against weapons and empty handed attacks. How long have you been training? If you have to think about what you will do when a person punches, or grabs, kicks- ect. it is too late. you have to train to make your waza a reaction, your mind must be blank and you need to control the first move. I'd say the kata drills are just to program your mind to get it into your head. train in randori doing it freestyle, do it almost full speed and see how to hold up in that situation
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:30 AM   #46
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
DR is frequently criticized for many of the same reasons as Aikido in the Koryu community. And for some very good reasons.

( ... )

Functional origins of techniques
The power of DR is in its body method, not in the pretzel logic. The functional "origins" are unknown, and explanations for "them" (since "they" are all over the place) are as varied as the five DR schools waza are. It is probably wiser to consider the explanations for these incredibly inconsistent techniques as unsupported legend, rather than unchanged and cohesive, waza transmitted down through time.
Of the many theories I'm entertaining about aikido, this is perhaps my "null hypothesis" or default assumption. It's also kind of my worst nightmare. (My worst -aikido- nightmare, that is; nightmares broadly considered, that one with the weasels and the pokers wins out. All those little eyes...) To wit: aikido has no rhyme or reason to it. It's -complete- nonsense; a martial art that, due to a lack of "live" practice, has degenerated into stylized absurdity. (Or perhaps: due to a lack of "live" practice, was born in absurdity as a random creation and never was meaningful.) In short, it can no longer really be called a martial art (in the literal sense of "military/fighting skill".) There are no functional origins; even if they have some vague resemblance to, say, sword movements, they might as well have been made up out of thin air as, "Okay, uh, rotate this way, and then make an upwards motion like that. Okay, sure, anything's fine."

It's an unpalatable theory, but objectively, not an unbelievable one. Even if one accepts the attitude that Takeda and Ueshiba were top-notch martial artists, there's nothing preventing a great martial artist from teaching absurdity for their own reasons. E.g., a Gracie could get up there and teach Bujinkan wristlock jumpkick defenses to a gym full of people. Furthermore, it's not like we all learned from Ueshiba; most of us studied several generations down the line from the source. Maybe even if there were some meaningful skills implicit in the absurd techniques (if one buys the contested theory of "principle-based" martial arts), they've mostly been lost over time.

However, I say this is my null hypothesis because I'd really like to entertain all alternatives before reluctantly accepting it.

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Matt Sloan wrote: View Post
How long have you been training?
About four years. Well. Four years, followed by a fifth year of semi-training due to relocation, busy-ness, and being occupied with the quandry detailed in this thread. (You mentioned randori; one of my defining martial arts experiences during that year was going to a free-form grappling club and finding that aikido seemed totally irrelevant. Like, it's not that everyone was speaking Spanish and I was speaking bad Spanish; everyone was speaking Spanish and I was vocalizing a series of totally different sounds. The question is whether those sounds amount to a different but equally legit language, or if they're babble.)

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-01-2008 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:51 AM   #47
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Hey Dan, interesting. When I first went to Japan in 1989 my first aim waas to find DR - and no one was looking for it back then. I was greatly disappointed - it did not meet my expectations at all. My first thought was, "No way Ueshiba learned this!" Perhaps it was the art or perhaps it was the teachers and students. Whatever. In the end I stuck with Aikido and also found Takeda-ryu, which was kinda interesting as they had mixed competition in with their training so their 'people' looked better - they were better! Anyway, these days no one listens if you criticise DR ... (But I believe there is some good DR out there ... there just has to be).

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As it is, many of the forms are done stiffly, and are many times inconsistant with other forms of Koryu jujutsu. Common discussions among the more learned crowd are that they appear either fabricated by someone unfamiliar with armed fighting, and or armored fighting, or an attempt at using aiki by someone lacking those particular skills. It's as if they are stuck in the middle of trying to be something they are not. DR is frequently criticized for many of the same reasons as Aikido in the Koryu community. And for some very good reasons.
DR and the sword - Kondo was chastised by Mochizuki ...
Grabbing the wrists of someone cutting you with a sword and reversing their shoulder while opening them for a thrust is just plain ridiculous...

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Old 05-01-2008, 07:19 AM   #48
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
That's an interesting historical narrative, but I guess I'm talking on a more basic and specific level. The description above talks about its origins in "battlefield" arts, for armed and armored warriors. Is the idea then that aikido is based on grappling optimized for people wearing armor? I've never worn samurai armor, but my hunch is that it'd compel some changes from standard aikido movement.

Furthermore, I don't remember ever seeing Ueshiba-sensei or his students demonstrate in armor, or even move in a manner that seemed particularly reminiscent of someone in armor.

It's an interesting theory, though. Unfortunately, it seems rather hard to test. (You'd need to host some grappling matches with sets of armor.) Does anyone have knowledge of armored fighting methods from koryu studies? What are they like, technically?
Well coming from the medieval German side where you do have wrestling in armour and on horse.(all from one manual but there is at lest 4or 5 other manual from different author on the same tradition in the 15th century)
an itallian fiel harness is about 35 kg (the weight of a o-yoroi) and a german field harness is about 25 kg

The secret technique are nikkio an a sort ok kotegeishi-shiro. (European 15th century armour is king of ikkio proof but you find ikkio in "naked wrestling" (wrestling without armour)
On horse you have irimi nague, tenchi nague, sankkio, and kote geishi
In fact lot of aikido technique are found in the "or wrestling with weapon (the best being a kind of jije garame koshinague.). and it is clearly stated the normnal wrestling cajn be used when fighting with weapon via the use of a technique (verkerer, reversal) that make your entry safe.

Basically what I am alluding at is that may be , like medieval time in Europe, wrestling in medieval japan was as much integrated as it was a stand alone

Ps
May be that will help your nightmare paul.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:30 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

Interesting questions concerning Armor effecting things.

We debate this from time to time in the military. We do where armor still, and it is a factor.

My experiences are that you can practice without armor and it does carry over to the fight with armor. Same things apply. Speed, mobility, and a few tactics will change, but not much else.

Not enough to affect how you train without armor on though.

Interesting to note that the Army of the 21st Century...we train jiujitsu much like not much different than koryu styles. We may emphasize different things, but it really is all the same when you get down to it.

I think the koryu guys do us a service by preserving the historical context of things. It may not make for a rapid or effficient style of fighting, but the historical context allows us to revisit the past and see how things might be applied to "modern" jiujitsu.

I am not patient enough to spend time on koryu stuff, but the little I have done was enlightening and I did carrry something away from it that was useful every time.

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Old 05-01-2008, 09:59 AM   #50
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Re: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
You mentioned randori; one of my defining martial arts experiences during that year was going to a free-form grappling club and finding that aikido seemed totally irrelevant. Like, it's not that everyone was speaking Spanish and I was speaking bad Spanish; everyone was speaking Spanish and I was vocalizing a series of totally different sounds. The question is whether those sounds amount to a different but equally legit language, or if they're babble.
This is a brilliant analogy.

When people ask if Aikido works in a fight, usually what they are asking (and they don't even know it) is, "is Aikido English".

By that I mean, they want to know if Aikido fits into their idea of what "fighting" is. If they think fighting is unarmed one on one combat, then trying to "speak" Aikido to them is like trying to ask for a cup of hot coffie, in Spanish; while in a room full of non Spanish speaking people!

It would seem that your language doesn't work. If no one in the room had ever heard Spanish they could easily say, "That's not even a language", and leave you wondering if your parents had played a cruel joke on you.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-01-2008 at 10:02 AM.

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