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Old 05-16-2008, 04:24 PM   #51
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have to go out tonight, so I can't respond. I wanted to be clear that we disagree on a topic, but I bear you no ill will. Lets look at it like a puzzle to resolve from two different views. I think you are completely wrong. And I say it strongly, ... I am going to trust in that scientific mindset of yours that I like- to see this as friendly research. I think you desparately need a wake up call. And I think you'll love this and embrace it.
Strong statements are no problem, and you don't know the half of what I often see. No offense taken. The rhetorical approach you take is not what I would choose -- but I've dealt with worse, and better, and in between (and totally off the wall). And, apart from all that -- that's why they make more than one brand of beer.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:30 PM   #52
Dan Austin
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Making negating reductive judgments based on a "hands-on" premise of proof while lacking any such basis for the demanded proof whatsoever, as is done by some (not you, Ron), is simply unproductive and self-contradicting. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Is this yet another intimation that you think you actually know how to do any of this? Yawn. Evidence of absence will be shown when you meet Dan I'm sure, which is why I'm also sure you will avoid that happening.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:37 AM   #53
stan baker
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Is this yet another intimation that you think you actually know how to do any of this? Yawn. Evidence of absence will be shown when you meet Dan I'm sure, which is why I'm also sure you will avoid that happening.
Erick you should read this
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:48 PM   #54
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Taiji Motion study

At the risk of intruding on this lovefest . . . after watching, the actual movements Chen Xiang demonstrated were far more akin to and in tune with his foundational bajiquan training than his Chen taiji training with Feng Zhiqiang. The study was really more about the movement of baji than taiji.

cheers,

Tom

p.s. I know nothing of angular momentum.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:21 PM   #55
Michael Douglas
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Sorry to get on-topic so abrupltly, but is it just me or are there any other people who object to how the narrator in this video http://move.stanford.edu/08/podcasts..._subtitles.wmv
is trying to murder Newton's second law to imply that because master thingy is jerking his hand back in the air quickly, therefore in her mind he is making 'contact' with the 'target' for a very short time ... that means he is optimising his force ... ? There's a diagram of an equation too. She is saying the shorter the time of contact (imaginary contact with an invisible target too!) the greater the force of his 'blow'.

Newton's second law does not say nor imply that at all.
What is does say is that a force applied to a mass for a short time will accelerate it less than the same force applied to the mass for a longer time ... of course.

Let's see him hit something, then ... something would be worth discussing. (As long as a few other athletes hit something too)

From what I've seen in this video it is bad quack-science at best ... at worst it is intentionally misleading.

Last edited by Michael Douglas : 05-18-2008 at 01:23 PM. Reason: spelling msktiktkeas
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:56 PM   #56
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Sorry to get on-topic so abrupltly, but is it just me or are there any other people who object to how the narrator in this video http://move.stanford.edu/08/podcasts..._subtitles.wmv
is trying to murder Newton's second law to imply that because master thingy is jerking his hand back in the air quickly, therefore in her mind he is making 'contact' with the 'target' for a very short time ... that means he is optimising his force ... ? There's a diagram of an equation too. She is saying the shorter the time of contact (imaginary contact with an invisible target too!) the greater the force of his 'blow'.

Newton's second law does not say nor imply that at all.
What is does say is that a force applied to a mass for a short time will accelerate it less than the same force applied to the mass for a longer time ... of course.
Hi Michael: Newton's second law is often represented by the equation: Force = Mass x Acceleration or F = m * a

But m * a can also be written as : m * delta-velocity/time since acceleration is the change (delta) of velocity. So we're still saying the same thing is we say F = m * dV/t

If both sides of the above equation are multiplied by the quantity t, a new equation results: F * t = m * dV

The concept of "Impulse" is normally written as F * t , so we can say that "Impulse" equals the "change in momentum". It's all still about the conservation of momentum, anyway you look at it.

The change in time application is fairly easy to derive but I'm running out of options with my keyboard. Go back to the original form of F = ma and understand that acceleration is rate of change of velocity. If a car goes from 0 to 60 (or from 60 to 0 in a crash) in the shortest amount of time, it's acceleration is greatest. So the "shortest amount of time" can indeed signal the greatest force in a punch, as long as the mass of the body (and/or the earth, if you know how to use it) is part of the punch.
Quote:
Let's see him hit something, then ... something would be worth discussing. (As long as a few other athletes hit something too)

From what I've seen in this video it is bad quack-science at best ... at worst it is intentionally misleading.
"Quack-science". Hmmmmmm.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:53 PM   #57
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Let's see him hit something, then ... something would be worth discussing.
Newton's Third Law: Boards hit back.

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Old 05-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #58
HL1978
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Newton's Third Law: Boards hit back.
Its funny you say that since most people, at least in the striking world, don't pay a whole lot of attention to that. In particular how that effects their own body.

Analyzing how that impact effects your own body is a very interesting exercise which pays dividends in increasing ones own power (as in where that bounce back is felt, the shoulder? the lower back? etc).
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:39 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Its funny you say that since most people, at least in the striking world, don't pay a whole lot of attention to that. In particular how that effects their own body.

Analyzing how that impact effects your own body is a very interesting exercise which pays dividends in increasing ones own power (as in where that bounce back is felt, the shoulder? the lower back? etc).
Great engineering point, Hunter.

The ground?

Best.

Mike
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:41 AM   #60
eyrie
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Uh huh... that what makiwara for....

Ignatius
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:45 AM   #61
aikilouis
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Back to the topic.

Here is another article on the same experiments :
http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...hi-050708.html

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Old 06-17-2008, 07:06 AM   #62
DH
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Hunter
You can see the same effect in any number of movies with stuntmen and actors. They'll shove someone-even someone smaller than themselves. When they shove; a fraction of the force goes into the person, a fraction goes back into the shover as he is launched back a bit himself, and the rest is dissipated.
We shove, and don't move back at all and the greater majority of force goes into the target with a far smaller portion dissipated.

I'd argue that less energy is dissipated martially with correct training and skills for reasons not readily seen. To use an example, I have had any manner of MAers try to connect with my center and I can feel how far off they are in direction. And how much slack they show in their own bodies. Therefore a percentage of force is wasted in a non-usable force misdirection, and another percentage in their own bodies absorbing slack. All of the culminates in their own broken structure and / or muscle chaining. They have lost so much before they even begin.

In a basic model, with proper alignment it is straight power path out, it instantly connects and controls with the center of their mass, and their is no slack exhibited in the body. The opponent either feels and instantly overwhelmed and very soft and controlling power, or a very fast and penetrating hit.

In a grappling sense its nice to have someone grab you and you know where there feet and balance is with your eyes closed. Over time the instant feel, makes instant reaction, makes it change-ups and flow on a better level than muscle ever would.
.

Last edited by DH : 06-17-2008 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:22 PM   #63
HL1978
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hunter
You can see the same effect in any number of movies with stuntmen and actors. They'll shove someone-even someone smaller than themselves. When they shove; a fraction of the force goes into the person, a fraction goes back into the shover as he is launched back a bit himself, and the rest is dissipated.
We shove, and don't move back at all and the greater majority of force goes into the target with a far smaller portion dissipated.

I'd argue that less energy is dissipated martially with correct training and skills for reasons not readily seen. To use an example, I have had any manner of MAers try to connect with my center and I can feel how far off they are in direction. And how much slack they show in their own bodies. Therefore a percentage of force is wasted in a non-usable force misdirection, and another percentage in their own bodies absorbing slack. All of the culminates in their own broken structure and / or muscle chaining. They have lost so much before they even begin.

In a basic model, with proper alignment it is straight power path out, it instantly connects and controls with the center of their mass, and their is no slack exhibited in the body. The opponent either feels and instantly overwhelmed and very soft and controlling power, or a very fast and penetrating hit.

In a grappling sense its nice to have someone grab you and you know where there feet and balance is with your eyes closed. Over time the instant feel, makes instant reaction, makes it change-ups and flow on a better level than muscle ever would.
.
Dan,

I am in agreement. I had the opportunity to do some test cutting recently, and once again, it illustrated the concept that no matter what movement you are doing, you are training the same concept. When it came to test cutting, the feedback was identical to striking an air shield.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:31 AM   #64
DH
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Dan,
I am in agreement. I had the opportunity to do some test cutting recently, and once again, it illustrated the concept that no matter what movement you are doing, you are training the same concept. When it came to test cutting, the feedback was identical to striking an air shield.
It is all the same, but only for those who train it to be so. As for test cutting-I cut through 3" trees, with Katana and naginata blades I forge myself. Men rightly criticize that you don't need that much power in a battle usage. While true, I do not do so by flexing or using any sort of overt directed energy. Further, there isn't a stop and reset mechanic in the body when done correctly. I have been also criticized that I was using too much power in Kata. What I kept saying is that while people (or trees) may feel a tremendous surge of power-I'm not using much on my part. In fact properly trained, we should be using far less energy to accomplish more, and control more, than a normally trained person doing the same thing-all while delivering more power.
I do not beleive that many men have the real ability to ge their center out to the tip of a naginata or bokken. They may be excellent at their kata, but they don't have the type of body usage, power or control I'm pursuing.

Neutral power
I had a guy once try to show me I was using dedicated power with my sword-too much so- and when he pulled his out of the way I just stood there neutral. He was expecting the katana to keep moving forward past the cut. He couldn't wrap his mind around the idea of power being a form of emanation that goes to neutral and is non-dedicated. But this is exactly where we should be all the time. The power is neutral and undetected until someone comes in contact and feels ground ascending, or descending. When they withdraw it is of course neutral again. In their limited view you are flexing or using power to come into them, because it is all their current understanding can account for. Of course it’s just nonsense to them-they don’t have a clue.

Hips and waist
Test cutting is an excellent means to demonstrate many things. If you can get a copy of "Budo the art of killing" you can see some veerry popular legends of Japanese Martial arts cutting with a katana and doing it all wrong. Embarrassingly so. Watch the video in stop action and look at the hip movement. They cut to the left-the hips go to the left, cut to the right the hips go to the right. Most men see it and think "No problem." Toward the end of the video you will two swordsmen running in a field cutting hanging rolled mats. Every time they cut they have to stop, re-engage their hips in a forward alignment just so they can move forward. That would be hilariously stupid in a battlefield. The whole "cut with the hips" idea has been morphed and quoted so often, by so many, who don't really have any serious consideration of body skills, or even a reflective mindset of what would have occurred on a battlefield that is has become standard Swordsmanship lore.
If you explore on the net you will find all manner of "big shot" Iai test cutters-some very well known-all more or less doing the same thing to varying degrees. As I said it, has become the norm. Just try and change their minds or critique their movement. Oy!!
Waist
When cutting the hips should be forward and the arms are "drawn" down; either hands-first in more of the city styles, or elbows-first in the more of the country styles. The hips stay aligned for natural forward movement and change of vector with the sword for multiple opponents. The waist makes the change. I have some great video of a master swordsman doing a freestyle (non Kata) cutting demonstration with a katana with all manner of cuts and his hips stay in line with the waist turning throughout all his movements. This is a much older man, blindingly fast and economical in movement. The Koryu of Japan have some truly extraordinary skill sets in them still. You just have to get to the right people.

Last edited by DH : 06-21-2008 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:31 AM   #65
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Dan, I think I just learned more from this post than...well, you know...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:47 PM   #66
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Dan,

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have some great video of a master swordsman doing a freestyle (non Kata) cutting demonstration with a katana with all manner of cuts and his hips stay in line with the waist turning throughout all his movements. This is a much older man, blindingly fast and economical in movement.
Would you please post this video? Thanks in advance.

Jim
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:34 PM   #67
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Taiji Motion study

This fellow isn't so bad . . .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DE1ztcStQl4
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:42 PM   #68
DH
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Hi Jim
Personal training video...no can do.

Tom
You crack me up sometimes.
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:50 AM   #69
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Hi Dan,

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Personal training video...no can do.
That's reasonable. Then how about, as an alternative, you post either an "unrestricted" video of someone showing proper cutting, or one of you showing it? Again, thanks in advance.

Jim
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