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Old 05-14-2008, 08:05 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Not my criteria. Bishop Berkeley, Sir Isaac, and one or two others you may have heard of.
I beg your pardon, but since when did Berkeley, Isaac Newton, et al demand that qi be defined in the (general) terms of physics? And to what degree of resolution? You're the one demanding certain levels of physics talk (which you seem to relish, the more complex you can make it) and you seem to want to constrain what is an acceptable level. None of those guys ever demanded the qi be defined by physics at all. As I noted several years ago, you could demand that riding a bicycle be confined to explicit physics in the areas you determine, and I would still suggest that it's a waste of time. Waste your own time with ki/qi and with bicycle-riding descriptions... no one else seems to be *demanding* how things are described, except for you.
Quote:
There is nothing to arbitrate except the correspondence of physical principles to physical actions. If one understands the principle one can see the action that corresponds or does not and make one's own judgment.

As to Qi, the terms of Qi are this:

Yin qi condensing forms quiescent matter, earthly shapes. Yang qi, dispersing becomes invisibly active energy, heavenly phenomena, all cycling from one to the other.

Mass, velocity, cycling around a center or mean 中.

That is angular momentum -- when yang phase is dominant.
That is moment (potential for angular momentum) -- when yin phase is dominant.

What's your problem with the correspondence in the traditions here?
You just asserted a definition that is invalid and incomplete. These demands and assertions have gotten you nowhere in several years, but they have convinced the growing number of people that see/understand the effects that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:13 PM   #27
Dan Austin
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
but I am ultimately with Mr Hazen...what is the point of all this
The point is a couple of people thinking that all their posturing and verbiage fools anybody into thinking they know about internal martial arts compared to Mr. Sigman or the other obviously knowledgeable folks. Is it working on you? Me neither.
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Old 05-14-2008, 10:02 PM   #28
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Re: Taiji Motion study

some can do, some can talk, some can do both.

I can do neither well.

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Old 05-14-2008, 11:26 PM   #29
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
since when did Berkeley, Isaac Newton, et al demand that qi be defined
They never heard of it.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... no one else seems to be *demanding* how things are described, except for you. ... These demands and assertions have gotten you nowhere in several years, but they have convinced the growing number of people that see/understand the effects that you have no idea of what you're talking about.
Really Mike, If I could just rely on your level of mind-boggling clairvoyance then I could dispense with physics. On the other hand, maybe not. "Proof" of physical skill (vice concept) by forum discussion -- I love it. Will you sip a mint julep through a DSL line next?

Demands? I demand nothing. I have a point of view and a line of thinking about relating things. You don't have to agree or disagree with it, take it for what it is or not as it suits you. I expect question challenge and even pushback on the merits. I try to respond in kind.

All I showed was the very basic elements of correspondnce for my line of thought from the most traditional understandings of Qi, as making essential correspondence with moment/momentum. And of course it is incomplete because the two systems are not completely correspondent, or at least not trivially so.

But. Why the acid? I've never challenged nor much care about your bona fides which are certainly not at issue. You seem to feel mighty free in slapdash judgment. I don't. I would not do that even if I had no basis to believe you were bona fide. This is a realm of ideas and ideas stand or fall on their own merits.

So, why the so routinely predictable attack on me with such unsupported judgment ? Not that I care -- and feel free to keep doing it. I just wonder why, that's all. Pretense about relating physicality here when we cannot agree on the language or grammar for representing that physicality is utter and complete nonsense. Even video is not sufficient because we cannot analyze it except by language means, so we are right back where we were. That is actually the point of the remedy I am working toward. Then you could insult and debase me in quantitative terms, and wouldn't that be fun ?

Last edited by Erick Mead : 05-14-2008 at 11:36 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:36 PM   #30
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
The point is a couple of people thinking that all their posturing and verbiage fools anybody into thinking they know about internal martial arts compared to Mr. Sigman or the other obviously knowledgeable folks. Is it working on you? Me neither.
If I could fool anyone into actually thinking, I would have done a good service, without more ... are you not going to be fooled into thinking, then ...?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-15-2008, 07:25 AM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Pretense about relating physicality here when we cannot agree on the language or grammar for representing that physicality is utter and complete nonsense. Even video is not sufficient because we cannot analyze it except by language means, so we are right back where we were. That is actually the point of the remedy I am working toward. Then you could insult and debase me in quantitative terms, and wouldn't that be fun ?
Erick, the party has been over for a couple of years, now. There are a number of Aikido people (and other styles) who understand the general area and function of these skills. Not by any coincidence, the skills easily and obviously agree with writings and sayings and actions shown in Aikido by some of the more prominent experts from the old days. And it's fairly common-sensical, once you get the initial idea. But once you get the idea and know generally what's going on, it fairly difficult for someone who doesn't know to dupe someone into believing he "knows" because there are too many basic mistakes and simple-things-misunderstood-in-conversation for it to be convincing.

And I'm not saying that the people who unrightfully claim the basic skills are evil or deliberate in trying to fool people. I think a lot of them are smart, self-absorbed people who think what they are doing is correct because they have great belief, faith, and focus in/on themselves.

If you think about it, having a growing number of fellow-practitioners who have a grasp of what the basics are is a *good* thing. It begins to enable a blocking action that keeps out the wannabe's who have in part been responsible for the slow progress that Aikido (and other arts) has made in these skill areas. That means progress is underway. Not for everyone, of course, but enough to start the next generation off reasonably well. That's good for Aikido and it's good for other arts.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:12 PM   #32
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Erick, the party has been over for a couple of years, now.
Party's not over 'til the beer's gone. And we can get more beer ...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... too many basic mistakes and simple-things-misunderstood-in-conversation for it to be convincing.
Quod erat demonstrandum. John Courtney Murray once remarked that "disagreement is a rare achievement, and most of what is called disagreement is simply confusion." As Winston Churchill said, the English and Americans are one people, divided by a common language. On these topics we have (at least) three peoples and three languages.

Terms of reference for things that are not common by definition -- as you admit -- are often very differently chosen by people, who understand them from very different histories and traditions. We both are native English speakers, you have a Chinese martial arts background, I do not; I have a Chinese philosophical background and training in the language (I have no idea whether you do or not). Yet even we can't settle on mutually acceptable terms. You are every bit as adamant about yours as you contend I am.

I don't care what you believe about me and I'll never prove anything objective to you here in your terms, which are explicitly subjective ("you have to "feel this stuff" etc etc.). Nor do I care to try as it is pointless. Only you can be the judge of your subjective appreciation, and only I can be the judge of my own. Nothing subjective can be objectively demonstrated, at least not directly. If I can see both green and red and you cannot, I cannot objectively prove to you my perception that there only green objects present on the table, and yet to both of us they look the same color -- and you may rightfully insist on your perception that they are all red. I can only demonstrate some objective difference by indirect mechanisms, which say nothing about my (or your) actual perceptions.

What I do care about is seeing that the ideas themselves are not confused and that the representations of ideas are placed in terms that can be more easily related with less, rather than more need for differing subjective interpretation.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 05-15-2008 at 01:14 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:29 PM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Terms of reference for things that are not common by definition -- as you admit -- are often very differently chosen by people, who understand them from very different histories and traditions.
Well, there's Rob, Dan, Akuzawa, Tohei, me, and many, many more who all agree with a couple of general concepts that *define* what is going on. Then there's you. If you really understood the concepts, the general descriptions would have been obvious to you. You don't. You need lessons. Protesting that this is all a matter of terms and implying that you really understand it, yada, yada, yada, have gotten you nowhere. Most of all, to continue trying to argue that you do understand when you clearly don't is a waste of time. Most of all, it wastes yours. By implication, it wastes your students', too.

You think Chinese and Japanese would cavil over the terms, in the practical sense? Really?

http://www.neijia.com/0.jpg
http://www.neijia.com/backbow.jpg

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-15-2008, 04:27 PM   #34
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... You need lessons. ...
I do what I do, I see what I see, I know what I know, and I express what I express. I make a living being told I am not only wrong, but embarassingly wrong about fifty times a week, so get in line, but somehow, despite all the wasted rhetoric, at the end of the day, it doesn't usually turn out that way, or I wouldn't stay in the fray in the first place.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You think Chinese and Japanese would cavil over the terms, in the practical sense? Really?
Yes, really, and rather deeply. Since at least the mid-nineteenth century. Read Kojiki-Den, and any number of other Kokugaku writers from Norinaga, Atsutane etc. That text in particular has some importance to the Aikido side of the table, and has issues that need to be reconciled in light of their scholarship (and its influence, which are not always the same thing).

Seems the Taiji figure in the second backbow illustration of the dynamic underwent a 180 degree rotation. What would one use to describe that dynamic in terms of the physics --- hmmm? Too bad we don't have a Western name for mass undergoing rotations or cyclic displacements or a tendency to do so... really too bad --- Oh wait, silly me, we do -- angular momentum and moments ...

And as to the first, it is a moment diagram -- upper lateral rightward moment received by taking up momentum in the spine torque (stored moment) and thus right/down rotation tendency at the top, equal left/up rotation at the bottom and dispose the undercarriage to let the left/upward rotation resolve through the arm receiving the input push -- the same 180 degree rotation of effective moment as the Taiji illustrated in the second diagram.

Got more?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-15-2008, 05:01 PM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
That text in particular has some importance to the Aikido side of the table,
Frankly, given that you don't understand what ki and kokyu really are, what good does "that text" do you? As I've pointed out a number of times, it's a common theme among Chinese and Japanese that people who can read the common language do not have the background, knowledge of idiom, knowledge of folklore, etc., to read the old texts in the way they were meant. I also mentioned that it is very common in my contacts in the martial-arts world to see some rather ego-centric people who disregard the comedic value of the above scene and prance right ahead.
Quote:
Seems the Taiji figure in the second backbow illustration of the dynamic underwent a 180 degree rotation. What would one use to describe that dynamic in terms of the physics --- hmmm? Too bad we don't have a Western name for mass undergoing rotations or cyclic displacements or a tendency to do so... really too bad --- Oh wait, silly me, we do -- angular momentum and moments ...
And of course when I do a Taiji form I sometimes bend my knee. What you would see is your own "Aha, angular momentum!" frippery and miss, once again for the thousandth time, the jin/kokyu force resultant that is the important point. But frankly I'm tired of covering the same old ground. Your point seems to be an endless "I can't be wrong! I'm a lawyer! I'm a pilot! I'm a teacher! So let's argue until I'm proved right!". Not me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-15-2008, 07:18 PM   #36
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Taiji Motion study

I think this has turned into the Mike and Erick show. Hmmm...
What happened to the good Ki talk??

-Blake
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Old 05-15-2008, 07:18 PM   #37
Dan Austin
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If I could fool anyone into actually thinking, I would have done a good service, without more ... are you not going to be fooled into thinking, then ...?
I don't think you're trying to do any service at all. I think you and Arriola need to start How Do I Love Me, Let Me Count the Ways thread to keep you busy and let people listen to what the actual internal arts practitioners have to say. I don't consider killing threads that might otherwise be interesting as performing a service.
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Old 05-15-2008, 08:06 PM   #38
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
... let people listen to what the actual internal arts practitioners have to say. I don't consider killing threads that might otherwise be interesting as performing a service.
I don't think that I have stopped anyone from saying anything. The same courtesy may not be reciprocated however. The thread title is "Taiji motion study" based on a motion-capture physics project. A diagram was just given and I gave a qualitative motion analysis by the method of moments (less the maths) - plain vanilla as that type of analysis goes. I am hardly out of bounds here. Even the earlier discussion was about how we can agree (or not) on terms of reference for the motion we are studying. Again not out of bounds of the topic.

The contention seems to be that it cannot be understood in western terms and this I deny without qualification. It has not been understood in western terms and this needs to be remedied. Which was what I thought was the point of this thread -- and why I joined it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-15-2008, 08:18 PM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The contention seems to be that it cannot be understood in western terms
Cite?
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Old 05-15-2008, 08:49 PM   #40
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Jun,
Perhaps we can take a page from the way ebay operates. After each successful transaction the buyer and seller get to rate and post about their experience with the other party. If enough negative information comes to light about an ebayer he/she is removed from the market place. Is there a way to incorporate this idea into a forum? Currently the forums I am familiar with rely on a moderator which places a great deal of responsibility on them to read every post, stay impartial and take action when needed. What a dreadful job! Having a self regulated board (more likely partially self regulated) might help remove some of the continuous chaff some insist on dispersing. When enough chaff is allowed to fill the skies no one can see the target and they go else where.....like what occurred on Aikido Journal.

Just a thought.

Mark J.

PS. The party is not over when the beer is gone. The party is over when the mead is gone.
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Old 05-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #41
Dan Austin
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The contention seems to be that it cannot be understood in western terms and this I deny without qualification.
Physics is always valid, but to really understand something you have to be able to teach it, and I don't think you can teach anyone to use the internal mechanics discussed by Dan, Mike, and Rob precisely because you don't know how to do them. You can analyze the physics of the Fosbury Flop from a video, but that doesn't make you a track and field coach or allow you to give one iota of useful advice on how to do it properly. The gentlemen whose discussions you inject yourself into claim that the mechanics are far harder to understand in the kinesthetic sense than a track event, and enough people have met them and confirmed the difficulty of learning it firsthand with repeated instruction. Your physics rants are useless and silly.

Quote:
It has not been understood in western terms and this needs to be remedied.
As I've said before, once you actually LEARN this skill, then combining it with a purely Western explanation would be wonderful. Pigs will fly first - with sufficient angular momentum of course.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:44 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
The contention seems to be that it cannot be understood in western terms and this I deny without qualification
That is NOT the contention, and it never has been. One more thing your own posts show you don't understand.

Post away though, it is an open board, and I like it that way.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:47 AM   #43
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Physics is always valid, but to really understand something you have to be able to teach it, and I don't think you can teach anyone to use the internal mechanics discussed by Dan, Mike, and Rob precisely because you don't know how to do them.
Believe what you like about whoever you like. Einstein was a HORRIBLE teacher and basically got fired after a year on the job teaching high school, and was unemployed for two years, which got him stuck in a do-nothing job in the patent office, because his dad had connections. Good thing he didn't teach that well. On the other hand I do teach (well or poorly, as the case may be), so I guess I'm not that bright.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The contention seems to be that it cannot be understood in western terms and this I deny without qualification
That is NOT the contention, and it never has been.
On your part, perhaps so, but from other quarters, well, -- maybe I am misreading this:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'd say that even if someone has all the math and physics in the world at their disposal, if they don't know how to do it physically then all that math and physics is a waste of time and won't help them learn diddly-squat.
Budd Yuhaszs, to his credit, laid the real point out there -- some people demand in-person bona fides, which he terms a "moral authority" stemming from a certain proficiency, and which he addresses charitably. That is a fine standard for reserving personal judgment. I don't make arguments propositions or observations depending on any "moral authority" but on empirical fact and physical concept. So, quite intentionally, I do not proffer anything that will satisfy that "hands-on" preference, since it does not exist here and my points do not depend on that. Making negating reductive judgments based on a "hands-on" premise of proof while lacking any such basis for the demanded proof whatsoever, as is done by some (not you, Ron), is simply unproductive and self-contradicting. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I made a couple of points about the moments and momentum described in the diagrams. They are physically valid resolutions of the "push" illustrated, without direct "pushback" or "resistance" in any linear sense.

The reason why the concept of moments and angular momentum is powerful is because the anticipated action of an applied moment can be defeated by a free rotation (A.M.) of the system or part of the system in connection around an arbitrary center, and vice versa.

Changing choice of center redefines both moment and angular momentum in a system with more than one degree of freedom. A statically rigid pencil gets dynamically wobbly when its center of rotation is moving all over the place.

Recognizing the basic cyclicity of the phenomena (which I pointed out in Sigman's off-the-cuff diagrams) means that rhythm and structure and energy all closely relate and have well-defined interactions. It brings resonance into the discussion with its low energy devastation. It brings phase-shifting into play -- which makes the interval concept of ma-ai come vividly to life. It lets action shift from one plane to another seamlessly and unexpectedly. In 90 degree phase differences (juji) it also eliminates the need for concerns of sente in kuzushi, because whether ahead or behind, once 90 degree phases connect, the timing and location of the combined peak energy shifts immediately from the point that was anticipated by the atacker. It gives a way to see how (suggestively, but more speculatively) involuntary stretch reflexes (illustrated by the medical reflex test called the Jendrassik maneuver) that connect between the arms/shoulder arc and the legs/pelvic girdle may be triggered or manipulated with a input pulse.

In short, when considering martial motion and its study, it doesn't hurt to learn THIS stuff either.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 05-16-2008 at 09:50 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:07 AM   #44
DH
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I don't make arguments propositions or observations depending on any "moral authority" but on empirical fact and physical concept. So, quite intentionally, I do not proffer anything that will satisfy that "hands-on" preference, since it does not exist here and my points do not depend on that. Making negating reductive judgments based on a "hands-on" premise of proof while lacking any such basis for the demanded proof whatsoever, as is done by some (not you, Ron), is simply unproductive and self-contradicting.....
Hi Eric
At it again huh?

To sum up your response
You just stated-again- no one should go to you to learn it hands on because you can't do it. Then tried to convince us that doing it isn't anecessary componant to understanding it.
You're a living model of a "dead end."
1.You cannot do what we do. I have asked you many times .
2. Then you go on to state what we do in physical models.

Reading comments about self-contradicting coming from you-in light of this is hilarious.

And what possible sense does this make?
Quote:
In short, when considering martial motion and its study, it doesn't hurt to learn THIS stuff either.
For what reason? Why would anyone care what you think?
You can't do it, you can't teach it, yet you pontificate daily on what and how to do it.
That pretty much sums you up doesn't it?
All due respect. I think you're a waste of time. You lack credibility on both fronts. In the end what matters- what only matters- is if someone can actually do it, then if they can actually teach it.

I think the bleachers are the place for you Bud, with all the other non-participants. I mean...again nothing personal, I'm sure we would get along just fine in person, but wouldn't someone have to be sort of a damn fool to care what you think about something you can't do.

When we meet, you will fail. You will be unable to do anything to or with me. All of your applied models which you thinkg are immutable and irrefutable mechancis that simply work wil fail you as well. You will stand there, a failure, in what you know. A living model of a 'dead end."
If you're smart, on that day, you'll start asking questions and learning.

Last edited by DH : 05-16-2008 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:24 PM   #45
Fred Little
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Established in 1919, the Caltech Beavers (so named after "nature's engineer") cull players from one of the most rigorously selective, academically demanding universities in the world. These boys are quite literally rocket scientists or, more accurately, double majors in rocket science and applied math.

David Duchovny, who narrates this wry, good-natured picture with affable bemusement, informs us that Caltech lays claim to both the highest ratio of Nobel Prize winners to faculty and a men's basketball team that at the time of filming was distinguished by a record 243 consecutive conference losses dating to 1985. Mr. Greenwald follows the Beavers' try at breaking that losing streak during the final week of the 2006 season, while chronicling the handful of ups and many, many downs in the history of a team remembered less for its athletic prowess (or even competence) than for once including the father of modern computational fluid dynamics.
The name of the movie?
Quantum Hoops

Coming soon to a theater near you!
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:37 PM   #46
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Eric
At it again huh?
In good company in reiterating some things, it seems.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
In short, when considering martial motion and its study, it doesn't hurt to learn THIS stuff either.
For what reason? Why would anyone care what you think?
Care? It's not about what I think or about what I am doing -- it's about whether you care about thinking critically and with an open mind about what YOU are doing. Only you can answer that question (and you may have just done so). Read Sagawa again. You quote him. How old was he when he wrote Clear Power? And still obsessing incessantly about training and thinking about the functional concepts underlying what he was training?

Quote:
Yukioshi Sagawa, "Clear Power" wrote:
Never think that what you are doing is good. Also never become arrogant. The second you start thinking this way is the moment you stop to progress.
As long as you think you are good, you will stop to change. You must continually realize your own weak points and then try to rectify them as hard as you can.
I never stop to dally on any point. I continue to innovate. I continue to change. Technique is my life.
My skill since I was released from the Tokyo University Hospital at the age of 87, has increased so much as to be incomparable to what I have reached now at the age of 92.
I'll let you or anyone else be your own judges of what it takes to conform to THAT standard. I've got, oh, 40+ years left to go if Sagawa sets the mark. For me, I've resolved I'm just going to keep trying to do the work, physical, mental and spiritual. There ain't no prizes in this.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To sum up your response...
... you would have had to relate something that I actually said.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
When we meet, you will fail. You will be unable to do anything to or with me.
I am glad you have such great confidence in light of Sagawa Sensei's admonition. Me personally, I doubt the outcome until first contact -- and then it doesn't matter, and I don't think anything more about it. I do know that I have no interest at all in doing anything TO you -- and if I did -- it would not be Aikido. Ueshiba's thought on that particular point is fairly clear. What I do with you, on the other hand, is entirely up to you ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:42 PM   #47
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Hi Eric
I have to go out tonight, so I can't respond. I wanted to be clear that we disagree on a topic, but I bear you no ill will. Lets look at it like a puzzle to resolve from two different views. I think you are completely wrong. And I say it strongly, but i'll be the first to buy the beer hang out and tell war stories after with absolutely no grudges. I hope we can make it happen later in the year.
As far as you not doing anything to me but rather receving what I can and will do to you? Well that' my stock-in-trade bud. What you think you will be able to do to my force on you and how to stop it is interesting to me. Someone trying to stop me and use what they perceive as incoming force is the real fun. I adore anti-aiki and men that think they understand what aiki truly is and trying to pull it off and make it work in any real sense against someone who HAS aiki in their body. It' a whole different world for most I've met. From your writing all is made known. You don't even know what I'm talking about. But I'll demonstrate it.

For follks peeking in, We are not talking about fighting we're talking about a test of forces. So don't get all hot and bothered about a challenge. This isn't about that.
Eric
I am going to trust in that scientific mindset of yours that I like- to see this as friendly research. I think you desparately need a wake up call. And I think you'll love this and embrace it.

Last edited by DH : 05-16-2008 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:13 PM   #48
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
My son learned to read at about age 3. We taught him simply by reading to him everyday over and over again. He figured it out on his own simply through the direct experience of reading. We never had to tell him anything directly, or to break it down into small parts, or anything, he did it simply through the experience of reading.
How does he handle new words?

Does he understand systematic meanings like prefixes?

Just curious. Last I heard, Whole Language approaches--reading to your kid, e.g.--vault kids ahead in reading until about, IIRC, 5th grade at which point the Phonics-taught kids surpass them.

As we're off topic, glad to take this to PM's.

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:47 PM   #49
Budd
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Erick - since you brought up my name, I'll chime in very quickly to say that I've gotten FAR more value from participating in this forum as a means to make connections to meet in person - as opposed to armchair discussions.

I think the notion of just trading ideas is fine, but ultimately very limited with regards to a skill that is made manifest physically through touch.
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:11 PM   #50
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Taiji Motion study

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Erick - since you brought up my name, I'll chime in very quickly to say that I've gotten FAR more value from participating in this forum as a means to make connections to meet in person - as opposed to armchair discussions.

I think the notion of just trading ideas is fine, but ultimately very limited with regards to a skill that is made manifest physically through touch.
As to your point, I would never say that it isn't. Every approach has it limits, but until I have bumped up against one and tested myself against any arguable limits and not made further progress, I will not impose an arbitrary limit myself.

The language analogy I mentioned applies, and the limits of imagery of sight and sound that are possible with black squiggles on a white backgrounds are larger than anyone has yet imagined. There is no rational reason why tangible sensations and motions are any different -- if we find the right vocabulary and set of concepts. Some don't want to bother with it -- and that is just fine, too.

This forum is by definition limited to discussion of concepts and methods, as well as making personal connections. It puzzles me, though, that discussion of methods and concepts is shut down or shouted down over a lack of physical contact the forum cannot possibly provide. It gets to be a little like watching a farmer beating the cat for not giving milk -- it's a cat -- not a cow. Since the "hands-on" aspect necessarily happens elsewhere and does not happen in this (non)place, I, quite emphatically, don't dwell on it, and choose to light a candle rather than curse the darkness.

I only mentioned you because your responses were bracketing one that I quoted. The distinction was remarkable, so I remarked on it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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