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Old 04-23-2008, 03:13 PM   #1
David Paul
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Goodbye Aikido

It's been a while since I have visited the site--mainly because I gave up on aikido about 5 months or so ago after roughly 5 years of training (although not all continuous).

Anyways-while I have not done a lot of posting I do read (or have read) a lot of the posts and I just wanted to post a final message to say goodbye and good luck to all.

That's all I've got.
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:16 PM   #2
Lan Powers
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Good bye and best-wishes......come back to train again someday if you find you miss it.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:39 PM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Just currious, but would you be able to talk about the reasons for leaving? It's always a good and interesting check point for those of us who stay...

Thanks, and Best,
Ron
Quote:
David Paul DeIuliis wrote: View Post
It's been a while since I have visited the site--mainly because I gave up on aikido about 5 months or so ago after roughly 5 years of training (although not all continuous).

Anyways-while I have not done a lot of posting I do read (or have read) a lot of the posts and I just wanted to post a final message to say goodbye and good luck to all.

That's all I've got.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:03 PM   #4
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

yes...as long as we are willing to listen only and not discuss why aikido would solve the issues he bring up, or how it is effective in a fight!

(Not saying that you'd do that Ron, as I know you are asking for the right reasons).

I too am always curious as to the reasons people make choices to stop. It helps us understand things from another perspective. the key is to listen to what is being said, not debate it.

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Old 04-23-2008, 06:22 PM   #5
Stefan Stenudd
 
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The aikido experience

I would like to think that the important thing is not why someone stops doing aikido, but that it was an enriching and rewarding experience while it lasted - and something cherished by memory.
So, David, I hope you feel that way about your aikido experience.
And many thanks for your greeting.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:42 PM   #6
rob_liberti
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Every new student has the same basic reason for starting - I want to change. If the student leaves, it simply means that after experiencing aikido, they did not get the change they are currently looking for. There is a value to having a practice. I often think it would be time well spent describing that value, but it is more visceral and I'm not a poet.

Rob
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Old 04-24-2008, 06:00 AM   #7
Shany
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

I guess Aikido is not suited for all.
5 years, probably griding the same techniques, same style, same thinking, seminars, without "Getting" anything in return might caused to leaving aikido.

All packed into 1 element that stops people -> time (or lack of it).

whatever the reasones are, aikido witll hunt you down YOU WILL return someday hehehehe
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Old 04-24-2008, 06:29 AM   #8
RoyK
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Do you feel you got something out of those 5 years, and if you did, what was it?
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Old 04-24-2008, 06:49 AM   #9
nagoyajoe
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

As I generally reply to these kinds of posts (and with some criticism): good-bye and best of luck.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:21 AM   #10
David Paul
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

First off-thanks for all the replies. To answer a few of the questions:

1.) I did enjoy my time training and I believe that the sheer enjoyment of training is what I got out of it.

2.) I left because I wanted to go back to boxing to get back into the ring before I got too old to do it. I'm going on 37, and fact is, you just dont get many chances to fight at that age.

There were some other reason for leaving-but that was the biggie for me. Other than that, I'd say I reached a point where I didn't feel like I was making any progress. Part of my lack of progress was also rank related. I wish I could say that rank wasn't an issue with me-but it is. I felt like I had been passed over for a test without a very good reason (actually this happened twice at two different,but affiliated dojos) and that was a factor.

Anyways-I did have fun. I still keep in touch with my training partners and I even stop by the dojo on occasion to say hello. No hard feelings and some good memories.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:57 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Thanks for the reply! Good luck and stay safe in the ring!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:53 AM   #12
charyuop
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

All this quitting posts really worry me. Not for the fact of people quitting, but because most of them quit after many years and many of them for the same reason...which it would be the same reason that would lead me to quit: not feeling we are learning much.

I guess we all had the feeling of not improving, staying at the same level for a long time, Frustration in this case is the boss. I am going now towards the second year anniversary of my Aikido practice and sincerelly is scarry seeing people after many more years of practice than me, quitting for the same feeling of frustration that I have when I go to practice.
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Old 04-24-2008, 11:05 AM   #13
Lan Powers
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Good luck with the boxing....punch from your hips and get your center into 'em!
Angles are good too.
Best wishes
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 04-24-2008, 11:16 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Just a note...

I try not to base my decisions in aikido (stay or leave, train here or there, in this way or that) too much on others or on their decisions. I have enough trouble controlling and understanding my own motivations and desires, let alone someone else's. So while I may seek to understand their decisions, in a spirit of learning and friendship, it is not likely that it will unduly influence my own decisions. I am responsible for my decisions, not someone else.

Best,
Ron (I train because I like it...and sometimes, that is enough)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:07 PM   #15
Shany
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Quote:
Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: View Post
All this quitting posts really worry me. Not for the fact of people quitting, but because most of them quit after many years and many of them for the same reason...which it would be the same reason that would lead me to quit: not feeling we are learning much.

I guess we all had the feeling of not improving, staying at the same level for a long time, Frustration in this case is the boss. I am going now towards the second year anniversary of my Aikido practice and sincerelly is scarry seeing people after many more years of practice than me, quitting for the same feeling of frustration that I have when I go to practice.
this is because when someone train X years without being open minded, you are finding your self not progressing at all, and everything looks just the same as it was years ago, just slightly 'better'. this is a study.

no one said u can't create your own techniques, style, philosophy. enjoy expending it towards higher standing, reaching for something no one has done before.
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:31 PM   #16
David Paul
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
this is because when someone train X years without being open minded, you are finding your self not progressing at all, and everything looks just the same as it was years ago, just slightly 'better'. this is a study.
I dont think that you can generalize by assuming/saying that someone who saw no progress in their aikido wasn't "open minded". Perhaps there really was (or is) no progress in whatever way that person chooses to define it. Perhaps I am missing your point-but that seems to me to be just a little condescending and arrogant.
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:36 PM   #17
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Right there with you Paul. Moving on doesn't mean there is something wrong with you.

Let it slide off your back like water from a duck...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:48 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Thanks for sharing, best of luck.

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Old 04-24-2008, 05:58 PM   #19
ze'ev erlich
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Dear David,
I like your honesty. Please enjoy boxing, I used to train a bit in boxing when I was much younger. I think it is really nice of you to post here a "good-bye" message.

Best of luck, joy and health,
Ze'ev.
Israel.

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
www.aikikai.org.il
Israeli Aikido Organiziation (Aikikai)

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Old 04-24-2008, 09:19 PM   #20
senshincenter
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

I don't think it's condescending or arrogant at all to point out one of the most common obstacles to real growth - i.e. learning to reconcile a life of practice with a practice of life. Maturing in a practice, no matter what it may be, but certainly when it is a Budo, is going to require that one drop those ego attachments that inhibit one from positively transforming themselves via things like boredom, no end in sight, no change of scenery, no landmarks by which to measure, endless repetition, etc.

I would definitely dump rank and the preoccupation of rank (which is all rank can ever be) into this picture - enough to say that anyone that cannot completely walk away from rank, into the apparent void of nothingness and no one-ness - where practice is pure and is what is as you are who you are - where all there can be is the "I am what I am" of it all... Well, lets just say your inner wisdom was right when it uttered, "I wish rank wasn't an issue with me." That's the open door you want to walk through, but to walk through it, you, anyone that does walk through, has to drop a lot of crap - all the crap that really gets in the way of true progress. Not everyone walks through it, and that, in my opinion, is why not everyone lives a life of continuous progress.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:33 AM   #21
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
... positively transforming themselves via things like boredom, no end in sight, no change of scenery, no landmarks by which to measure, endless repetition, etc. ... your inner wisdom was right when it uttered, "I wish rank wasn't an issue with me." That's the open door you want to walk through, but to walk through it, you, anyone that does walk through, has to drop a lot of crap - all the crap that really gets in the way of true progress. Not everyone walks through it, and that, in my opinion, is why not everyone lives a life of continuous progress.
There came a point in my training where, since I was moving around so much, I realized I had to take charge of my own training. At the same time I realized that I had to accept in its own terms whatever was on offer if it was ever going to teach me anything. The point was not to make my personal training paradigm the enemy of any tradition of training, but to make as much of every tradition I found my own. That's when the light went on. It was all up to me, all any instructor could do was provide the place, some orderly routine, and helpful suggestions and criticism of failures along the way.

O Sensei said it clearly that progress comes only to those who train and train in the basics of the art. It takes a long time. This is in the nature of Aiki, and it does not matter whether you practice Aikido or the now more faddish and "combat-effective" sister art of Daito-ryu, or any other version of training related "skills" from other sources.

While many dissatisfied Aikidoka have sought DTR as being somehow less pansy-ish and faster to be more effective, they are just as likely to be disappointed as they ever were if they are looking for the one-year wonder course. Yukiyoshi Sagawa, like O Sensei a direct student of Takeda in DTR, said in his book "Clear Power" that learning Aiki takes about twenty years.
Quote:
Sagawa, from "Clear Power" wrote:
There is no such thing as "special" training. Training must be done EVERYDAY for the rest of your life. That is <the meaning of> "Shugyo." No matter how much muscle you think you aren't using (you're only misleading yourself.) The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of Tanren [鍛練]. It is not easy to attain.
You won't be able to manifest this skill unless you continue tanren of the body everyday for decades. You must train the body, think and have the techniques "seep out" from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while innovating yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn't nearly enough time.
Quote:
Sagawa, from "Clear Power" wrote:
See! This is why you are no good. You don't do something simply because so and so said so. If you simply go through life by simply thinking you can copy people you'll never get anywhere. The only person that can do this is you. You must create your own understanding for yourself.
Take Aiki for example. There is no way to really teach this. Even if I could point at something that is Aiki I can't put it into words. You simply think you can learn everything from me, so you don't develop the habit to think for yourself. ... In the end its about accumulating your thoughts and having them act as the foundation for other thoughts. ...<If you decide because> others tell you so, or influence you, then it's no good. You must hold your own counsel. Decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong. ...
Quote:
Sagawa, from "Clear Power" wrote:
... You must take what you learn, and then innovate it based on your own ideas. ... No matter how much you learn something, if it is simply taught to you, you will forget it. However you will never forget something you acquire for yourself. It becomes you. In other words, teaching is simply a matter of giving the right hints. You must acquire that thing for yourself. Especially in the case of Aiki, it is an internal feeling which must be grasped.
It's not simply a matter of questioning everything either. You mustn't simply think that it's enough to be taught. Everyone's body type is different, so there is no guarantee that things will work out exactly the same way.
... I don't teach everything, and I can't teach everything. What I can teach is the foundation of how the skeletal system works. How your muscles and organs work upon that frame is for you to ponder and discover on your own.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:50 PM   #22
Elijah211Barr
 
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Best wishes to you in boxing. I think what Eric said is right on. You have to train daily to reach that next level. Put that ego in check. Good luck and thanks for sharing why you quit.
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:58 PM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Quote:
While many dissatisfied Aikidoka have sought DTR as being somehow less pansy-ish and faster to be more effective, they are just as likely to be disappointed as they ever were if they are looking for the one-year wonder course.
Hmm, just noticed this. Are you saying all aikidoka who try or move to daito ryu:
a) are dis-satisfied?
b) are worried about being pansy-ish?
c) are looking for shortcuts?
d) are overly worried about effectiveness?

or E) are all of the above?

How nice of you to read their minds for them

Best,
Ron (mostly kidding, but, you know...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:50 AM   #24
DonMagee
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Quote:
David Paul DeIuliis wrote: View Post
I dont think that you can generalize by assuming/saying that someone who saw no progress in their aikido wasn't "open minded". Perhaps there really was (or is) no progress in whatever way that person chooses to define it. Perhaps I am missing your point-but that seems to me to be just a little condescending and arrogant.
Exactly, when I left aikido, it was because the progress I was making was very slow towards my goals. Not the goals of aikido, but the goals I set for myself. I saw that even they guys there for decades were not much more developed in the skills and areas I was interested in. Looking at other arts, I found a stark improvement in those areas in a very small period of time. So it made logical sense to leave.

That is reflecting back on that of course.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:53 PM   #25
Brion Toss
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Re: Goodbye Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hmm, just noticed this. Are you saying all aikidoka who try or move to daito ryu:
a) are dis-satisfied?
b) are worried about being pansy-ish?
c) are looking for shortcuts?
d) are overly worried about effectiveness?

or E) are all of the above?

How nice of you to read their minds for them

Best,
Ron (mostly kidding, but, you know...)
Not to leap to someone else's defence, but I believe that what Mr. Mead said was,"... While many dissatisfied Aikidoka have sought DTR as being somehow less pansy-ish and faster to be more effective..." Not all, nor even necessarily most, let alone any concerns with your points a through d.
I have known and worked out with numerous people who have studied Daito Ryu, long and short term. Some of them started out in Aikido, and left for reasons much like Mead describes, and some of those people returned to Aikido. No doubt others dropped out of other arts, or came to Aikido from Daito Ryu, then left for, I don't know, Krav Maga, but so what? The context of the response was about possible motivations for leaving or staying in Aikido, and why some people choose to go to Daito Ryu.
For myself, I find it valuable to ask, once in a while, why I choose to stay with Aikido. It isn't for the trophies, it has rarely been valuable for protection of myself or others, and I'm certainly not good enough at it to stay for ego gratification. I want to be sure that I'm not staying out of some sense of invested effort, the old "if you leave now, all those years will have been wasted" argument. So I ask myself the question, and the process of coming up with answers has, so far, been sufficiently satisfying in itself.
Yours,
Brion Toss

Regards,

Brion Toss
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