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Old 05-08-2008, 07:21 PM   #1
Laura Donohue
 
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Can you "see" ki?

For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:10 PM   #2
aikidoc
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Maybe in the 60s with assistance to remove filters. Don't mean to be flip. Feel maybe, see? What you might be seeing is the heat emanating off someones body if you are at the right angle and background.
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:30 PM   #3
Laura Donohue
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

No filters needed.

and to re-iterate, its not exactly seeing, nor is it exactly not seeing. Hmm...
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:42 PM   #4
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

I thought this was pretty funny in light of some posts of late... one about hemp gi... and something about the "Force".

Ignatius
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:15 AM   #5
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there.
Good, at least you're questioning - simple answer, yes, you are. The mind is able to project all sorts of false information depending on many factors
Quote:
I seem to see tracers of our body movements ... the simple white walls of our dojo
if your dojo uses fluorescent lighting you may want to have some of the tubes checked, you may be sensitive to strobe effects

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:29 AM   #6
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Seeing directions, sensing intention

To me, ki is not something visible in itself, but in its manifestations. It's a reading of dynamics, of movement and change, rather than a substance.

I like to regard ki as "the ether of intention", and somebody's intention is often possible to perceive - for example by minute initial movements of the body, its posture and balance, and so on. I am sure that all of us are often able to see on somebody where he or she intends to move, before that movement has commenced.
That is tracking the ether of intention, and of course it can be described in other words.

I would not at all be surprised if all ki phenomena could be explained in terms of established natural science. In aikido, though, the ki concept and its apparatus are practical and effective methods of exercising aikido fundamentals.
So, to me ki is something for using, not for observing in itself. I would even say that it does not exist other than in the dynamics of its manifestations. When it has nothing to do, it is not there.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:34 AM   #7
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Intriguing.

How does it translate in the way you execute technique ?

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Old 05-09-2008, 04:23 AM   #8
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In practice

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
How does it translate in the way you execute technique ?
By each year, I find myself doing the techniques more and more on uke's intention and direction, and less on uke's body.

Simply put: I start by making my direction join that of uke (the taisabaki step), and extend it, which allows me to redirect.

Also, I regard the technique as commencing already when uke takes aim. At that moment, I try to be "inside of" uke, to join with his or her intention already at its center. I would like to do the aikido techniques so that uke feels as if doing them to him- or herself.

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Old 05-09-2008, 04:57 AM   #9
Laurel Seacord
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

I find that my unconscious mind finds many different ways of communicating with me to supplement logical thought. I don't know exactly what cues I read to sense that someone is looking at me with intent, but subjectively I may feel a prickling on my skin from that person's direction.
Laura, I don't think that you have to decide whether ki is visible to you or not. If what you "see" is telling you the truth, then believe it!!!!!!
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:02 AM   #10
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

My question was directed to the OP, but anyone who experiences the same perceptions should be free to contribute.

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Old 05-09-2008, 07:08 AM   #11
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Ignateus. I was really tempted on the hemp gi but let it go
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:23 AM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Laura Donohue wrote: View Post
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...
To be fair, "auras" are considered to be the "ki". It works sorta like this:

The breathing, stretching, and the jin/kokyu are all related to the fascia networks of the body. Breathing (when done correctly) stretches and contracts those structures all over the body, puts tensions and pressures on them, etc. (same idea as in yoga, which is part of the same 'body-technology'). The formation of jin/kokyu paths is not possible in the fully-developed sense without the coordination and development of the fascia structures (which would also be why just doing "postures" in yoga is to miss out on a crucial part of yoga, just as doing external 'techniques' in Aikido would be to miss out on the whole idea of "ki" in "Aikido"). As these structures develop, a person's electromagnetic field structure also develops, hence the idea that you "strengthen your ki/qi" with these mind-directed aspects of movement and power. And incidentally, as these fascia structures develop, so does the resistance to blows, the difficulty in piercing/lacerating the skin, etc. (think how many Asian religions/quasi-religions demonstrate hooks in skin pulling loads, etc.).

The "emitted ki/qi" is a deliberate variation of the electro-magnetic field effect, so the point is that all of these things are tied together under the umbrella term "ki". Some people (not all) are supposed to be able to see or perceive the electromagnetic "aura" around people, to varying degrees. Personally, I don't know much about that other than the fact that it's considered a valid phenomenon by a lot of Asians, so I'm just reporting what I've heard and discussed over the years.

There's a book on the western scientific perspective that is pretty good about this phenomenon:

"Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis" by James L. Oschman

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 05-09-2008 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:41 PM   #13
Laura Donohue
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
Intriguing.

How does it translate in the way you execute technique ?
I have been observing and practicing with soft eyes, using my peripheral vision whenever possible. I haven't been focusing on my partner so much or even making eye contact as much as I had before or would in similar learning situations (previous training, dance etc...). I think that I remember techniques taught to me quicker, and am more aware of the needs of my partner's body that way.

It is difficult to separate this development from my progress however...
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:43 PM   #14
Eric Joyce
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Yes...and it looks like this (just kidding of course
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:47 PM   #15
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

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Old 05-12-2008, 09:49 AM   #16
Laura Donohue
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote: View Post
Good, at least you're questioning... The mind is able to project all sorts of false information depending on many factors...if your dojo uses fluorescent lighting you may want to have some of the tubes checked, you may be sensitive to strobe effects
I payed more attention to the lighting, and I feel much better in all respects. There are fleurescents, then hanging incandescent lights which make it seem more than just fleuresecent. On top of that, we have huge windows which let in alot of natural light. When I am in there, my visual field does seem to throb or vibrate a little unnecessarily, kind of like the computer screen I am looking at now, but the natural and incandescent lights made it seem that I wasn't in that type of room, as fleurescent lit rooms often seem dim and without natural light. I asked others about the strobe effects, and they didn't notice much, but again, maybe I am just sensitive to this phenomena.

As to seeing "ki" I have come up with a theory. Someone reporting seeing things that others don't easily leads to that person being doubted or made fun of (as several funny posts have shown ), however nearly everyone can attribute some ways of knowing to intuition. Intuition can be also described as the sum of all of our senses put together (including sensory clues that our brain usually does not pay attention to: for example a dog barking in the far distance may alert us to a feeling that someone we know is coming home, even if we don't remember hearing the dog), our experience, our mind, and maybe a little bit more from our quantum universe.

If our mind can play tricks on our eyes, perhaps so can our intuition. My theory is that even though if looked close at any part of my visual field I would not "see" ki, when I relax my eyes and look at the entire room or around a whole person my brain recieves information from my intuition that is interpreted visually.

I feel that my question is answered, but I am wondering if others, given this new information would feel comfortable relating any similar experiences.

Living Light through Laughter,

Laura
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:30 AM   #17
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

I can see ki-rly now the rain is gone.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:38 PM   #18
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Laura,

I think it's always worthwhile to ask questions - that's how we learn, after all. I've seen a couple things related to visible-ki phenomena that I can't easily explain (and certainly can't do). To that point, I'd say if it's an interest of yours (from within aikido practice and /or perhaps even beyond), then by all means, keep asking questions, keep seeking . . .

And don't worry about it too much if there's some smiles and laughter involved along the way. Most of the time, they're laughing with you . . . (at least that's what they tell ME) . . .

The only thing I try to check with myself from time to time is how much I'm actually observing something versus how much I'm just really, really looking hard for it . . . sometimes that just takes a little more time and a few more questions to determine.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:27 PM   #19
Laura Donohue
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

As I have stated repeatedly, I am looking for truth, but I am actively doing that by simply and daily observing as I continue to practice, and in all other areas of my life as I develope my awareness. I am glad that an over the top and confusing phenomena (due to lighting) has been understood.

Humor has the trancendental ability to help us overcome difficulties. It also has the ability for us to laugh about topics that we would be ordinarily uncomfortable to think about. It also has the ability to intimidate people from taking situations sincerely. I will not continue any further commentary within the public arena at this time. If anyone would like to discuss this topic with me, they are completely free to send me a message privately.

Last edited by Laura Donohue : 05-15-2008 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 10:24 PM   #20
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

I can often see the direction people are going to move. I don't mean to make it sound mystical or magical or anything, but I can (if I'm calm and in a receptive place) see a kind of "motion" around people; this is hard to describe. It doesn't happen just in the dojo, it happens all the time.

It's like because I understand their body language, I can see the motion they are going to make. I can also see how their "motion" interacts with other peoples when they do jiyu waza, or a ki no nagare practice.

No colors or anything fancy though.

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Old 05-15-2008, 10:43 PM   #21
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Laura Donohue wrote: View Post
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura
I stayed away for this for a while because I want to find the right way of saying my experience with light. Wouldn't ya know it, I can't find the right or technical words. So I said to myself, you got a choice A) shut up. B) Go for it and hope for the best. It doesn't take a genius to figure out I will probably make a mess and embarrass myself of what I am about to say about colored glowing ki.

I am holding my nose and jumping in with both feet, btw, my eyes are closed. You might want to get comfortable.

When I was younger I studied a martial art, not Aikido, whose founder had a gold-ish yellow aura around him. This was seen in a picture taken of him while he was a live. Then there was a well done program on TV that was pro Kirlin photography. I had a college buddy of mine say when he got really angry he saw red. He saw everything as if he was looking through only the red side of 3-D glasses. I had talked to people in college who believed they could see different locations of the body had different colors. Though I never could see it, I think they were stoned though. These events effected the way I seen the unusual things I was seeing that I called Ki.

I noticed at different times of my life which I never spoken to anyone about that I was seeing different irregular circular spots of intense color in front of my eyes. Like a flashlight's spot uniform in light minus the beam. All it was, was a large spot of solid color with soft edges floating in space in front of me. The spot would shift with my fixed gaze. The spot would move in sync with where I would look. It would fade away within a couple of minutes. Colors like green, gold-ish yellow, purple and red. When I was hurt or sick sometimes I would see red. When I wasn't sick, I saw green. If I was really hungry it would be purple, and goldish-yellow around other people like a body halo which would outline all or the upper part of a person.

What I heard and what I experience in terms of seeing colors fascinated me. I was greatly tickled and excited when I saw color around other people. I would be able to see this phenomenon I wouldn't fix my gaze indirectly upon someone and stare for a few seconds then I would see the gold-is-yellow light color traced around them. When they would move I would then see their image imprint in black sliver-ish color as it was left behind in the space they moved from. And I never knew what it was, but I felt I could find out about this on my own. I didn't want not tell anyone.

Left to my own thinking I wanted to know this awesome ability I had. What I came up with, for the reason of seeing the light colors and the imprints from time to time, had be auras of mystical energies. I based this on my exposure to Kirlin photography phenomenon and Indian mysticism of chakras etc. After all the reading and digging I did, I was sure I was seeing auras that had mystical properties, I felt that I was able to see auras of ki, ki being related to chakras and that of what I was told in Aikido class. I kept it to myself for many years what I saw. I was satisfied and convinced my conclusions where the facts for what I was seeing. I thought I had a pretty strong ship.

Ya know I forgot when, but sometime later after my great revelation, I took a photography class. It just happened the instructor was a Kirlin photography geek. He had discussed the recent findings of the paranormal phenomenon of Kirlin photography not being paranormal at all as thought. There was some solid scientific evidence that the orange color light caught on film coming from the finger tips was not paranormal after all. Then in the same class I found out that the gold-ish yellow light / halo emitting from the body of the other martial art founder in the photograph can be easily replicated. It was an artistic technique of photography. At this point I my ship of confidence about the aura was starting to leak.

As more time went by, I got a girlfriend that I was close too, and unlike allot of sensible men I started talking intimately one evening to her about my private male thoughts, like seeing these color auras and ghostly impressions. I told her, I thought it was a special gift, and because I was in the martial arts I was working on it so I can use it to enhance my martial skill, it was called Ki. I told her in all seriousness. She thought about what I said for a second and having an IQ that would make a Sunday bowler jealous, giggled. That one giggle was the sound of the alarm that my ship was about to be sunk. The abandon ship alarm.

You see, having a girlfriend who was smarter then me and most everyone else I know, was about to shed some serious light on my situation. She started off to explain how I was able to see these colored auras and ghostly imagines by saying how the eye worked and how light worked as if I was a 4th grader in her class. Then she went on in detail explaining all the scientific and biological reasons for me seeing color which a lot of people can see though not everyone is able to see. In such great detail and knowledge I later had to find my old college text books to completely understand what she was saying. Bottom line was I was seeing different waves of light, call it seeing swatches of the rainbow, and not the whole rainbow. This happened to be true for the light around people too. And the trace image left in space after a person moved had to do with light and the eye too, and other people see it. What she pointed out to me and what I didn't realize was when I was seeing this color usually when in a room with bright lighting and the room had a light colored background, and people where usually in light colored clothing. It enhanced the ability of the eye to see light waves. It was nothing special that I could see these colors. Now about my friend getting mad and seeing red that too was explained and it made sense. She was telling I should have realized the colors and the ghostly images that I seeing wasn't auras or ki at all.

When I thought about it, it was 20/20 hind sight. I couldn't believe I over look what she told me. I never clued into when I seen the colors I was in a bright lighted room, or those I looked at where wearing white. All of which were conditions I never considered. As for the trace images, I seen it was pointed out that it was the similar effect to being in a bright lighted area and then close the eyes and after doing that what you see is a reverse image. It was all due to how my eye worked. How could I have over-looked that when I seen the gold-ish yellow halo around people it was usually in the dojo, where it is in a white room and people are wearing white gis. How could I have thought that I could use color to enhance my Aikido power. Color isn't a power, color is something experienced by the eye. How could I have over-looked something so obvious. Or when the light was different or dim I was less likely to see those colors. I didn't pay attention to the obvious, instead I sought out answers in areas that seemed to id what I was seeing, and had an explanation and told how to use it.

After I thought about my errors, I realized how easily it is to plug in data and not see you're getting the right interpretation for an explanation. I think this condition effects all walks of man. We seek to understand what we don't know by the little we do know in terms we set, in terms of familiarity. I don't think ki can be seen. I know there is an Aikido group that is really into defining ki. But, I think ki isn't something detected by the eye, but rather symbolized through the imagination for a better understanding, like a pie chart makes it easier to understand data.
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:26 AM   #22
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Would it be stupid if I say,that some people in my Dojo,have some
KI in them,maybe I can not see it.But in my mind,yes I can see it!

It is very interesting.

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Old 05-16-2008, 06:08 AM   #23
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

When I said ki isn't something detected by the eye, I was saying it isn't color. It isn't auras etc. What I understand of ki it is an old Japanese word for something that is a translation of an old Chinese word for Chi which is something not clearly defined or agreed upon really at anytime. The Chinese character for Chi shows the physical action of cooking rice, and not of colored spots or ghostly impressions like I still see. That is my personal experience. I thought I would share and hoping it was interesting.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:46 AM   #24
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
When I said ki isn't something detected by the eye, I was saying it isn't color. It isn't auras etc. What I understand of ki it is an old Japanese word for something that is a translation of an old Chinese word for Chi which is something not clearly defined or agreed upon really at anytime. The Chinese character for Chi shows the physical action of cooking rice, and not of colored spots or ghostly impressions like I still see. That is my personal experience. I thought I would share and hoping it was interesting.
That is interesting. It is also interesting to note that the character for Ki is not only showing the physical action of cooking the rice; it depicts the element of steam that rises from the process. One supposes steam could be said to be a 'color' or a vapor that surrounds the 'physical'.In which case it is discernible.
As for agreement about what ki and chi (prana) is at any given place and time, the culture where the energy arises uses it's own dialectic to comprehend and express the element. This changes;the existence of essential energy does not. In which case you might say it's Aiki in language.
Good thoughts.
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 05-16-2008 at 09:48 AM.

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Old 05-16-2008, 09:54 AM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Can you "see" ki?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
... the character for Ki is not only showing the physical action of cooking the rice; it depicts the element of steam that rises from the process.
"Pressure". Qi is often described as "air pressure" since that's a lot of what is used (in the breathing processes, stretches, etc.) to develop the qi. When you do breathing exercises, it's not just the inhale-exhale that is important... it's how you use the pressure things. The development of the fascia structure from the breathing processes affects your "aura". But, whatever... you can't get "air pressure" into a bottle that is already full.
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