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Old 04-30-2008, 08:55 PM   #151
Dan Austin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Who am I trying to fool, exactly?
You're trying to fool the board into believing that your endless analyses and claims that "it's helping you" mean that you know anything substantive about the skills Dan and Mike possess which you obviously don't. No amount of pedantic circumlocution will cover that, but no doubt you'll keep on grinding away at it.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:53 PM   #152
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
You're trying to fool the board into believing that your endless analyses and claims that "it's helping you" mean that you know anything substantive about the skills Dan and Mike possess which you obviously don't. No amount of pedantic circumlocution will cover that, but no doubt you'll keep on grinding away at it.
I will not respond in kind. I find it interesting how some respond when their own perspective is not reinforced. As I would, like others, laughably lack any personal knowledge of the people so presumptively judged, I do not intend to be the judge of anyone else's "substantive skills" one way or the other through this medium. There is useful discussion of physics and biomechanics to be had in regard to the principles and skills involved in effective aiki in whatever nominal art it occurs. I intend to have that discussion with anyone who is interested, and if you deem it to be of no interest or value to you -- then pay no attention to it.

I am not here to have my thoughts reinforced, but challenged, questioned and examined. Whether opposed me or cooperated with I learn something useful in the engagement -- which is what I am here for.

What are you here for?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:43 PM   #153
DH
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

I am not here to have my thoughts reinforced, but challenged, questioned and examined. Whether opposed me or cooperated with I learn something useful in the engagement -- which is what I am here for.

What are you here for?
Hi Eric
You maintain and steadfastly enter into threads about these skills wherever they pop up. This thread is a case in point. Have you done these arts? You donlt seem to describe or contribute anything to the discussion that we recognize as having value. I have honestly read most everything you have written. Your descriptions make absolutely no sense whatsoever regarding what I do. Not that there's anything wrong with that. You are respectful and even handed, and for the most part a gentleman when you debate. You just don't have clue what you’re talking about when it comes to these skills. This is obvious, first by the written word and I suspect not by physical skill either. Anyone with these skills by any degree will stand out and known in any jujutsu type venue. They will feel unusual and not be able to be handled.
Since you want to participate in these discussions why not participate in a venue anywhere where Rob, Mike, Ark, or I are present. Barring that anyone who has trained with us. Wait, I think Howard has a school down your way maybe you can go try your ideas on Howard. I'd take his review of you.
Why not Eric?
At some point there is something driving you to speak with those who don't want to talk with you and challenge your ideas. Now you say you like the challenge. Does that mean you like a written debate as long as it doesn't involve vetting?
What's that motivation about?
Wouldn't it carry over to wanting to have a physical discussion to compare notes? No waza, or art stuff just testing of theories in a non confrontational good time...then, dinner and drinks..
Come on bud. Have your "ideas" meet the real world and be challenged for their veracity. I mean we're not talking philosophy, we're talking physical skills. Your "ideas" are as valid as your ability to manifest them. Come on out some where- or let some guys come in and play. Most everyone I have read stated they learned quite a bit had allot of fun in the process.

Last edited by DH : 05-01-2008 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:33 PM   #154
Howard Popkin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYY,

How did I get dragged into this ?

I'm a simple fisherman, who apparently likes Newcastle Brown Ale

Howard
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:03 PM   #155
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Since you want to participate in these discussions why not participate in a venue ...Why not Eric?
Come on out some where- or let some guys come in and play. Most everyone I have read stated they learned quite a bit had allot of fun in the process.
No doubt. It is quite simple, really. One, you are the ones who demand "vetting", not me, and ideas rise or fall on their merits, not mine. Two, I've got time to train, raise kids, build houses, read, think and discuss these and other things as a relief from the closer thinking required of me for litigation, and still pay for it all with the practice of law. Vacation is not on the short list, especially not since coming to see you or them would cost me far more in my hourly rate than I would willingly wager for the privilege.

Any competitive desire is not what I train for and even this soft version of yaburi has no interest or use for me. Without the satisfaction you and others apparently desire to say you have vetted me, you are left with the ideas to deal with, or not, as you please. Since the ideas themselves are the reason I am here, and engaging in physical practice in this venue is impossible, that is just the way it ought to be.

I will not allow myself to be the issue, positively or negatively. If you were merely satisfied that I met your test you would disregard the ideas as being merely your own in different language, or if not satisfied you would simply disregard the ideas as from an unworthy source. Problem is, they are not my ideas. I am not the source, I am merely the reporter who gives you some facts that I uncover in this context, and reasonable conclusions drawn from them informed by my observations and experience. You are free to doubt the latter but then you need to substitute other conclusions based on differing experience to rebut or qualify mine.
Quote:
-- An argument isn't just saying, "No. it isn't"

-- Yes, it is.

-- No, it isn't
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... Your "ideas" are as valid as your ability to manifest them.
... and you are still not dealing with them, which is your prerogative. That old non-sequitur does not fly. Were the pocket-protector guys with the horn-rim glasses that got the astronauts to the moon (and back again, more critically) clueless because they did not actually go there? Jim Lovell didn't think so. Do you doubt that we went to the moon because you haven't touched moondust? I just don't feel any real need for you or anyone to punch my moon-ticket. Why does that seem bother you so much that you have to keep asking?
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I mean we're not talking philosophy, we're talking physical skills.
The name for physics used to be "natural philosophy." Do you really think that a better understanding of the physics does not help to improve or even to innovate physical skills?

Last edited by Erick Mead : 05-01-2008 at 03:11 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:13 PM   #156
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Erick wrote:

Quote:
Vacation is not on the short list, especially not since coming to see you or them would cost me far more in my hourly rate than I would willingly wager for the privilege.
With to date 1254 post with an assumed average of 5 minutes per post that would add up to 6,270 minutes of posting time. (that is not including the time reading the thread, you probably read fast though).

Anyway, if you bill as a lawyer at $200 per hour that (I am not sure what a good lawyer would make per hour, but that seems reasonable to me!) that would add up to $20,900 in time spent on aikiweb.

At $1000.00 for a round trip ticket, and a weekend off, it seems like you could take your whole family to a cool place, spend a few hours training, have a decent family weekend...and still come out better than $20,900....way better I would think.

I am not a very smart guy...and yes I am trolling a little bit.....

But I thought it was interesting that your time is so valuable that it would not be worth the risk, yet it is worth spending "man hours" having intellectual debates on aikiweb.

Sorry Erick, couldn't resist.

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Old 05-01-2008, 03:43 PM   #157
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYY,

How did I get dragged into this ?

I'm a simple fisherman, who apparently likes Newcastle Brown Ale

Howard
You must have hooked onto something big, then.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:53 PM   #158
DH
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

No problem
To clarify, I'm not making it about you -its only about your theories and ideas. And I mean every comment to be non-adversarial in nature. You made the discussion about your ideas every time you brought those ideas into the discussion. As has been pointed out to you-you spend an incredible amount of time writing out ideas and theories that have been unilaterally rejected by all parties concerned with the topic. Yet you continue to write to audience that rejects you now out of hand. It was for that reason that I thought you'd be interested to have-this is important- your IDEAS and theories vetted. It is the only logical next step. Without it, the ideas you present have been dismissed, the theories dismissed, so your massive writing is reduced to a masterbatury exercise in the presence of those not listening.
I was trying to be helpful. If I arrive in Florida would you welcome me to compare notes. It would only be for day in a family vacation but I think, scratch that... I am convinced, it will be the best new starting point in your life. We can even talk in P.M. and no one will know I came and went.
What do you think
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:01 PM   #159
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was trying to be helpful. If I arrive in Florida would you welcome me to compare notes. It would only be for day in a family vacation but I think, scratch that... I am convinced, it will be the best new starting point in your life. We can even talk in P.M. and no one will know I came and went.
What do you think
I'm hurt Dan. You'll go to Florida but you won't come to California. We have sunshine too.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:31 PM   #160
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It would only be for day in a family vacation but I think, scratch that... I am convinced, it will be the best new starting point in your life. We can even talk in P.M. and no one will know I came and went.
What do you think
Heck, I'll put a bid in for some of that action. How does camping on a secluded 6 acre lot with a 1/2 mile of shore line on a private, limited acess 300 acre lake sound? Canoeing, kayaking, sailing (soon), moutain biking and as much wood as you can chop. The really good fishermen tell me the fishing is great and one of the best kept secrets in SC. Personally I haven't had much success but then I grew up on small stream trout fishing.

Oh and the best part is some quality time with ME.

What do you think?

Mark J.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:07 PM   #161
Howard Popkin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Oh sure,

I didn't get the fishing invite.

What's up with that ???????????

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Old 05-01-2008, 07:27 PM   #162
DH
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Oh sure,

I didn't get the fishing invite.

What's up with that ???????????

Hey
You stayed in the art.
I'm the prodigal son
Leave a decrepid, dodering old man, a little something. I'm fragile.
Kill the fatted calf!!
Kill a fish.
It's all fresh meat to me
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:42 PM   #163
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Oh sure,

I didn't get the fishing invite.

What's up with that ???????????

Oh not true Howie, not true. I seem to recall you picking your nose up at 'small' fresh water fish. Something about you want to catch the fish that EATS a 5lb bass.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:46 PM   #164
Howard Popkin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Mark,

You got me

But I would bring light tackle

Be well,

Howard
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:47 PM   #165
Howard Popkin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Dan,

I will let you know when we have a good tuna trip. Its no joke

Take care,

Howard
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Old 05-01-2008, 09:00 PM   #166
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No problem
To clarify, I'm not making it about you -its only about your theories and ideas. And I mean every comment to be non-adversarial in nature. You made the discussion about your ideas every time you brought those ideas into the discussion.
For what it is worth, I chimed in to this one to forestall some definitely adversarial noises and to agree, from a non-partisan position, with Mike that what I saw Joseph doing and what I have seen him doing are not the same things. It is what it is, and was plainly not meant to be adversarial in that sense, quite the contrary.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... writing out ideas and theories that have been unilaterally rejected by all parties concerned with the topic. Yet you continue to write to audience that rejects you now out of hand.
Yeah, why is that? Perhaps because I believe that an adversarial process (in the formal sense) is useful and thus, why would I engage people who might already agree with me?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... the ideas you present have been dismissed, the theories dismissed, ... not listening.
By you maybe. Lessee, I hadn't looked until you brought it up, but the count seems to be 7997 views, one post 6th in overall rank of views and nearly 2500 views on that post alone, so -- maybe not. But I don't want validation, sound facts validate me all that I need.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was trying to be helpful.
I genuinely believe that. I genuinely mean to be the same.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If I arrive in Florida would you welcome me to compare notes. ...
What do you think
I've never turned an honest soul from the door yet. And we have the whitest beaches in the world -- as long as you dodge the odd hurricane. I'll revert to Moriyama Sensei's rules and say "bring beer" for afters.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:03 PM   #167
Dan Austin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
if you deem it to be of no interest or value to you -- then pay no attention to it.
Done and done.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am not here to have my thoughts reinforced, but challenged, questioned and examined. Whether opposed me or cooperated with I learn something useful in the engagement -- which is what I am here for.

What are you here for?
I learn quite a bit. Also for sport and as a general public service, I like to call people on their ego and related nonsense. There's far too much of it in the martial arts.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:24 PM   #168
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I've never turned an honest soul from the door yet. And we have the whitest beaches in the world -- as long as you dodge the odd hurricane. I'll revert to Moriyama Sensei's rules and say "bring beer" for afters.
I don't believe for a minute that that visit will happen. However, if you can describe the physics of what Dan does differently such that it aids anyone's practice or understanding even a little, I'll be among the first to sing your praises.
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Old 05-02-2008, 11:30 PM   #169
DH
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Hi Dan
One stipulation. Once Eric can DO...what I do, I'll listen. Not until then. I've had any manner of men-who can't do what I am doing try and tell me WHAT I was doing. This has included three structural engineers-one award winning, as well as DR and Chinese internal martial artists who couldn't do any thing, but had reams of information on what TO do. Things that they were either partially or completely inept at doing themselves.
So this really isn't anything new.
It's why I say "Your understanding is in your hands. Not your art. Not your teachers reputation. You are responsible for you. On that day you either can do, or you cannot. No waza, not technique, lets see your level of power and understanding.'
Its when you account for your years of training.
Most men fail. I've seen senior men well up in tears and get emotional once they realized...after all this time...they had missed it.
But hey, The good news is its teachable and with hard work people can change their bodies and use the mind/body connection. It isn't like learning an art where you can fail to get it or have it hidden from you.,Train it and you will get it.
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Old 05-03-2008, 08:32 AM   #170
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
One stipulation. Once Eric can DO...what I do, I'll listen. Not until then. I've had any manner of men-who can't do what I am doing .....
I'm not sure all the I, I, I, I is necessary. If someone shows by their conversation or deeds that they have a reasonable foothold into these skills, they're worth listening to. In fact, even on this forum there have been instances of people who didn't know each other falling easily into generic conversations about the ki/kokyu skills. What people can do in comparison to others' skills is a secondary point. BTW, this happens in other forums, too, not just AW.

To date, it's been fairly obvious that Erick simply isn't on board yet and the topic is simply worn out.

My question would be more or less along these lines: As Dan Austin points out, the incidence of ego-centrics is pretty high in the martial-arts. There are some pretty good examples in this very thread, if you look at some of the claims and breeding-displays. But let's say there are two or three guys who claim all sorts of credentials and yet they don't have a real entre' into understanding the basis and logic of the ki/kokyu skills. My question is.... why would anyone show them? This goes to the whole idea of "secrets".

As an aside, I'm personally for a certain level of basics being open to the public, but beyond that there are other issues that have to do with how hard someone works, their personal ethics, and so on.

If someone is a proven ego-centric who appears to be doing a lot of martial arts for the status, the students, the recognition, or some other form of self-aggrandizement, who is really served by showing them even a little bit of the doorway, ahead of more deserving people, into these things? Given how long it takes to get any good at these skills and given how probability indicates that some teachers are really more into themselves than into their students, what public service is performed by giving some of these people an entre? It's a question worth thinking about. Some people take a little bit of knowledge and parlay it into a lot of self-absorption... and as Dan Austin notes, we don't need a lot more of that.

I'd probably happily meet with Dan Austin and a number of others that I see making logical, ego-free posts, but there are others that I think would take whatever little I can show them and they'd parlay it into more ego and empire. So I'd be reluctant to get involved.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:19 AM   #171
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If someone is a proven ego-centric who appears to be doing a lot of martial arts for the status, the students, the recognition, or some other form of self-aggrandizement, who is really served by showing them even a little bit of the doorway, ahead of more deserving people, into these things? Given how long it takes to get any good at these skills and given how probability indicates that some teachers are really more into themselves than into their students, what public service is performed by giving some of these people an entre? It's a question worth thinking about. Some people take a little bit of knowledge and parlay it into a lot of self-absorption... and as Dan Austin notes, we don't need a lot more of that.
I wonder if O-sensei was this way with prospective students? Did he turn away many? Did he deem some worthy of instruction and others not? I don't remember much about him turning people away.
I have always felt that those with the real goods are eager to teach it. Those with the egos will simply not learn it. No need to attempt to discern up front. Besides, every once in a while, one of those with a big ego will humble himself and want to learn. You can share allot, you can share a little, or you don't have to share at all. It's completely up to you. I know I have learned allot from your postings. I have read some of your articles and found them very informative so you have obviously shared. If you were nearby I would try to learn from you. But it would be your choice whether or not to teach me. It may be your loss, or it may be mine. It's hard to tell. There are so many paths.
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:34 AM   #172
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
I wonder if O-sensei was this way with prospective students? Did he turn away many? Did he deem some worthy of instruction and others not? I don't remember much about him turning people away.
To use a classic case to make my point..... did Tohei learn his ki/kokyu skills from O-Sensei's openess or did he have to go somewhere else to learn the skills?

I visited a school in San Francisco one night that taught Yiquan. It took only a few glances to understand that the teacher had some bona fide skills (of whatever level; that's not germane to the story). He had a group of students, but to my eye none of these people had basic jin/kokyu/qi skills. Yet after the class, the teacher proudly introduced some of these people as having studied with him for twenty-years and thereabouts. Going back to your mention of O-Sensei.... what would be your impression of a teacher that kept students in a school but who didn't really show them everything? You see the point, I'm sure.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:16 AM   #173
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
To use a classic case to make my point..... did Tohei learn his ki/kokyu skills from O-Sensei's openess or did he have to go somewhere else to learn the skills?

I visited a school in San Francisco one night that taught Yiquan. It took only a few glances to understand that the teacher had some bona fide skills (of whatever level; that's not germane to the story). He had a group of students, but to my eye none of these people had basic jin/kokyu/qi skills. Yet after the class, the teacher proudly introduced some of these people as having studied with him for twenty-years and thereabouts. Going back to your mention of O-Sensei.... what would be your impression of a teacher that kept students in a school but who didn't really show them everything? You see the point, I'm sure.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Of course I see the point. You are suggesting that O-sensei 'held out,' for whatever reason. I don't know. But it is my feeling that knowledge has limited value if it is not shared. If a teacher deems one not worthy of his knowledge, that student may go elsewhere. The teacher may have held his progress back or he may have propelled it. Iwao Yamaguchi sensei was not my first MA instructor, but he certainly was my best. It is alway best to find the appropriate match for ones own training. Sometimes it is best to train 'solo' as well. Mike, you obviously have unusual knowledge and skills. It is completely up to you whether to share it or not. I prefer that you do.
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:35 AM   #174
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Of course I see the point. You are suggesting that O-sensei 'held out,' for whatever reason. I don't know. But it is my feeling that knowledge has limited value if it is not shared.
Depends on who you share it with. For instance, if some Asian grand-poobah teaches his students all he knows, what is poobah's son going to do for a living? And besides, everyone has an idea of who is "worthy" in terms of personal character, demeanor, integrity, humility, athleticism, and so on.... it's only logical to have those factors affect who you're going to be open and friendly with.
Quote:
If a teacher deems one not worthy of his knowledge, that student may go elsewhere.
I think the term "worthy" is too vague. Let's face it, there are criteria for who gets taught what and some of those criteria revolve around practical details. For instance, if I think someone has a totally disorganized life, they're shallow thinkers, or etc., any of many factors that simply mean there's almost no probability they can think their way through these things, then I know it would be a waste of time spent to teach them. I.e., it's better to pick and choose so that there's a better chance that your time won't be wasted.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking from any lofty heights of skills and excellence... I'm just talking from experience. This stuff is a lot more complex and harder to train/learn than any of us thought. Most of us thought this "ki" stuff was osmotic. It's not. It takes a mind that is always thinking and looking. Heck, it takes a certain amount of ego (as do most things, if people really want to excel)... but not too much ego. And so on. It's an iffy thing and there are no hard and fast rules; just general approaches.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:06 AM   #175
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 151
United_States
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Dan
One stipulation. Once Eric can DO...what I do, I'll listen. Not until then. I've had any manner of men-who can't do what I am doing try and tell me WHAT I was doing. This has included three structural engineers-one award winning, as well as DR and Chinese internal martial artists who couldn't do any thing, but had reams of information on what TO do. Things that they were either partially or completely inept at doing themselves.
So this really isn't anything new.
Hi Dan,

Yeah that's about what I figured. Trust me I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:
But hey, The good news is its teachable and with hard work people can change their bodies and use the mind/body connection. It isn't like learning an art where you can fail to get it or have it hidden from you.,Train it and you will get it.
Sounds good, but the opportunities to really train these things seem few and far between. How much hands-on does it require with basic solo exercise #1 before one could make solo progress?
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