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Old 04-28-2008, 02:43 PM   #126
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Haowen Chan wrote: View Post
I don't know the specifics of the video but it looks like a simple demo to me, not a contest at all. Chen Xiaowang does not reply with his own attacks but simply invites the pushes and neutralizes them. Liao Bai is trying to find an opening for a straight-in push (you see in the beginning of the video Chen actually gestures and tells him what kind of attack to attempt: "two handed push, straight on the chest"), Liao tries several times quite powerfully, but cannot find any flaws in Chen's stance.
Actually, I heard about that one, since I could see that CXW was inviting the other guy to "go ahead and try" but he wasn't replying himself (him letting other people "try" without him responding is something he's known for). Turns out that CXW was giving a workshop on Taiwan and the guy who was supposed to take him for lunch suddenly said something like, "Oh, let's run upstairs in this building for a minute so you can meet some friends of mine." So CXW followed along and lo and behold it was a setup with a room full of guys, a video camera and this moron Liao Bai. Given the number of gangsters on Taiwan, CXW stayed placid and did that "oh, go ahead and try thing". And not knowing if one of these idiots had a gun, he kept the excitement level in the low numbers. But notice that he didn't bother to reply to Liao Bai. I know of one similar contest where CXW met with a guy 3 times and never replied until the last one. Then he said, "OK you have met with me 3 times and tried your best. Now I will try so prepare yourself." And then he put the guy through the wall.

However, it's interesting in this video to watch CXW set himself up, his position, etc., when he's dealing with someone trying to honestly hurt him. I learned a lot from that.

I think Arriola's snide remarks teach us something, too, though.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:59 PM   #127
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"?

How different is this from two 6th graders getting into a shoving match? Where is the finesse, the softness, the "empty force of qi"?

I put this tape up not to denigrate. I put this tape up simply to compare and contrast. Yes, I question "teachers, linages and mythology". We should all question. The analysis is important.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Ok, so here is Tohei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpoT-Kzxr4c

Based on what you said how is the Tohei video different. I think you should consider context a little more.

Tim Anderson
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:26 PM   #128
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You know, Joseph... you really have no idea about what jin is or what taiji really is.
In an effort to let Joseph know that there is more than disputatious personality involved in Mike's critique of the movement, (as to what it is) let me point out that Mike and have I disagreed (at laborious length, See: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11629 ) on categories and concepts involving these things. He both doubts my bona fides and mocks my concepts openly (in this very thread earlier) and I demand that he use physical concpets accurately and not metaphorically, and so here we are: (Angular Momentum + Moment, Mike -- don't forget moment).

But plainly what he can be seen doing in other videos around, and what Joseph can be seen doing are not the same things, nor is what Joseph shows the same thing as what Ark is doing in the push-hands. I have no brief for Mike, Dan or Rob.

Joseph, in my terms, is using linear momentum by lunge and collision, where as Mike in things I have seen is poising (yes, Mike) moments and angular momentum (potential and actual rotations) to affect the body in wave-like ways. "Fa-jin", as I see it, and again in my terms, is making the fist (or whatever makes contact) deliver into the target what the cracking whip delivers into the air.

They will likely not agree with any of the following but I will attempt to draw correspondence between what they have related of their understanding of structural dynamic and mine -- from a purely mechanical basis .

I will suggest a related answer to Rob's earlier question "Why does a punch spiral?" Neither the arm nor the whip can intersect itself like the fluid in a wave can, so the spiral is the minimal energy shape [see here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MinimalSurface.html ] for a linearly linked structure getting out of the way of its own momentum/moment.

The minimal surface of the helicoid spiral ( http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Helicoid.html) is the minimal surface for linear limb segments rotating in space. It may be used for structurally dissipating into other axes applied moments ( whihc at contact are always in a given plane - another minimal surface). The third minimal surface is a catenoid, (See here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Catenoid.html ] roughly the shape of a nuclear cooling tower. In cross section it is the shape of two catenaries head to head.

The catenary (hanging chain) is the shape of tegatana. It is the shape of Rob's description of upper and lower arches, as in Aunkai's structural understanding. If you take a step in either the left or right axis in Aunkai's understanding those arches ( or any such arch) form traverse a catenoid, skewed in this case because of the eccentricity.

The catenary is also is the shape of the transverse limb of the "upper cross" -- understood as an sort of horseshoe arch formed by joining the two tegatana in tension across the shoulder girdle. It is also the shape of the lordosis curve of the lower back which Ark uses to great effect in the push-hands kuzushi. Half a catenary is still a catenary, so Mike can also find his five bows in there, somewhere (leg, leg, spine, arm, arm).

The catenary as a special case of generic "funicular" loads, (weights on a rope), also relates to the adjustment of the shape of the arm to bring the most forward moment to the front of the elbow, (hiriki -- in Yoshinkan)

Dan doesn't conceptualize his work, more power to him, so I cannot speak to his terms since I am not getting up to Mass. anytime soon.

I won't belabor our differing categories beyond that. In those terms, however, what Joseph shows is not fa-jin. It is not a minimal structural-energy movement.

Yes, Dan, Rob and Mike, I know that as to my understanding, you want demonstrables in your terms, but I have my path and it moves me along, so let's leave that all as read, shall we.

But I have eyes and my own means of comprehension too, and the differences of what is shown here are quite obvious, and the criticism toward Joseph seems in good faith.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-28-2008 at 04:31 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #129
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Hi everyone,

I don't appreciate the rather personal tone that's being exhibited by some here in this thread. Please watch your tone. Let's try to address the issues, folks.

-- Jun

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Old 04-28-2008, 09:47 PM   #130
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Mike and have I disagreed (at laborious length, See: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11629 ) on categories and concepts involving these things. He both doubts my bona fides and mocks my concepts openly (in this very thread earlier) and I demand that he use physical concpets accurately and not metaphorically, and so here we are: (Angular Momentum + Moment, Mike -- don't forget moment).
I think that sums up the crux of your argument, Erick. You insist that description of ki and kokyu adapt to your own understanding of what they are. But this is old territory.
Quote:
"Fa-jin", as I see it, and again in my terms, is making the fist (or whatever makes contact) deliver into the target what the cracking whip delivers into the air.
True, in your terms you see "fajin" as you will. This is why I encourage you to get out and see/experience more.
Quote:
Half a catenary is still a catenary, so Mike can also find his five bows in there, somewhere (leg, leg, spine, arm, arm).
I suppose I could go on at length and explain why this idea of yours is simply superficial and wrong, but the problem is that I'd have to establish a groundwork that is too extensive and tenuous in practicality. Let me just say that the idea of "five bows" is not that simple. If it was that simple, it wouldn't be worth noting. Anyone can imagine the bowing and storing of normal "energy" in the 4 limbs and the spine.... but unfortunately it implies something more sophisticated than that, so all caternaries are swallowed by the dog.

But back to the question at hand... other than superstrings, quantum mechanics, Brownian movement, and angular momentum, how would you practically coach someone to do what the OP asked?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:57 PM   #131
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You insist that description of ki and kokyu adapt to your own understanding of what they are.
Physics is not my invention.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
True, in your terms you see "fajin" as you will.
Not only aikidoka suggest this is the proper course -- Sagawa does, too.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... how would you practically coach someone to do what the OP asked?
Thing is, I already have, several times on this forum in fact -- in exactly these terms -- arches, chains, and mechanisms exploiting angular momentum. The OP did not specify, but I presume that the lift was by the arms, one to each uke. If so, it is a modification of unliftable body, in which the opponent tries to push up on a slack chain -- that is falling on him.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1548
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=435
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=43

There was also a video of a DTR man, (Kondo, perhaps) knocking down about six or so who had him lifted up in the air, which I also analyzed but I cannot find it now. He used a wave of mass transfer (the same mechanism of an effective punch) to domino the whole assembly down under him. He basically undulated, using angular momentum to project his mass just off their base of support. They couldn't coordinate to hold him at such a length from the collective base, and they all fell over. (Sort of a vertical version of the same mechanics as are in the "jo trick.") Akira Hino ( I think) was also posted in a video a while back.demonstrating something similar, and it may have been his that I analyzed here, but I saw both of them.

Just because I get the mechanics of it does not diminish significance of the art and feel in doing it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:27 PM   #132
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Just because I get the mechanics of it does not diminish significance of the art and feel in doing it.
Erick,

You're obviously a bright guy, if a bit too proud of yourself for it, but how does after-the-fact analysis help anyone to replicate what Mike is talking about? This unliftable body stuff is obviously a parlor trick of sorts, and a parlor trick by definition can be done by anyone who knows the secret. Clearly it wouldn't take years of training to condition the body a certain way and ingrain particular mechanics to do something that only requires knowing a trick. I think your physics analysis could be useful if you had the ability to do the things talked about. Then you can optimize and say, well, the knee joint doing X has effect Y and so the hip should do Z, and you'd probably find it to be exactly what's been found through hundreds of years by trial and error anyway. But at least then it could be a help. Until you actually gain some degree of proficiency, it's all a lot of blackboard physics masturbation. Step 1 is meeting one of these gentlemen and discovering that you haven't the foggiest idea of how to actually do what they do.
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:33 AM   #133
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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... how does after-the-fact analysis help anyone to replicate what Mike is talking about? This unliftable body stuff is obviously a parlor trick of sorts, and a parlor trick by definition can be done by anyone who knows the secret.
Well, it was the parlor trick the OP asked about and Mike asked me to respond to.

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Clearly it wouldn't take years of training to condition the body a certain way and ingrain particular mechanics to do something that only requires knowing a trick.
You don't know any talented magicians then, I take it. The trick is no substitute for seamless action arrived at by dedicated practice -- like anything else. Somehow, I think you would agree with me on that.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
I think your physics analysis could be useful if you had the ability to do the things talked about.
Yes, I find it useful.

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Then you can optimize and say, well, the knee joint doing X has effect Y and so the hip should do Z, and you'd probably find it to be exactly what's been found through hundreds of years by trial and error anyway. But at least then it could be a help.
But that is not quite what it is useful for. And the results of trial and error methods can only be obtained by -- repeating the trial and error - streamlined a bit, maybe some old rabbit trail closed off for sure, but the basic trial and error remains if that's the technical foundation your working with. As a matter of obtaining the feel and the art there is no substitute. As a matter of refining it, there may be other ways to guide the training along more rigorously.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Until you actually gain some degree of proficiency, it's all a lot of blackboard physics masturbation. Step 1 is meeting one of these gentlemen and discovering that you haven't the foggiest idea of how to actually do what they do.
See, that's why I haven't touched a blackboard in years -- I mean, who knows where those things have been ?!?

You don't know me. I know nothing about you, and do you the same courtesy of assuming nothing about you without evidence. And lack of evidence is not proof of anything. And I might just suggest that my project and the observations stem from from things that I do with fair regularity and the basis for which has been too foggy for my liking. It is an effort to unfog my ideas about it in an objective arena, and deciding who is better than whom is not part of that. Read what Sagawa has to say about teaching and training aiki and you will understand me better.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-29-2008, 08:02 AM   #134
Jim Sorrentino
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"This is like deja vu all over again!" - Y. Berra

Chris,
Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I figured as much once Dan warned me and I reread the context.
Do you remember Frank Gallagher? I introduced him to Sensei Goldberg just before I left.
It seems to me that you have been down this road before, on Aikido Journal's Daito Ryu Technique forum: http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...804e0b27205f8e. (Alas, it appears that Dan Harden has deleted his post(s?) from that thread. ) Of course, now we have the benefit of streaming video.

Jim
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Old 04-29-2008, 08:21 AM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well, it was the parlor trick the OP asked about and Mike asked me to respond to.
My mistake. I should never have asked; we're back into the same old territory. Erick, as Dan Austin and a number of others have suggested in the past, you need to get out and find someone who is perhaps still willing to show you these things.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:02 AM   #136
Michael Douglas
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
I don't appreciate the rather personal tone that's being exhibited by some here in this thread. Please watch your tone. Let's try to address the issues, folks.
-- Jun
I apologise for my nasty post 121, I can't edit it at the mo.
Feel free to remove the last line, infact please do so if that's possible.
I was way too rude for this forum.
Thanks for the sensible moderation.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:11 AM   #137
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
This unliftable body stuff is obviously a parlor trick of sorts, and a parlor trick by definition can be done by anyone who knows the secret. Clearly it wouldn't take years of training to condition the body a certain way and ingrain particular mechanics to do something that only requires knowing a trick.
If only eastern martial artists would stop doing theatrical parlour tricks in their Demonstrations!
I think they will continue as long as the demonstrator is himself deluded into believing their veracity by over-helpful or gullible students.
I believe in his late years Ueshiba was affected by this

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You don't know any talented magicians then, I take it. The trick is no substitute for seamless action arrived at by dedicated practice -- like anything else.
Yes! Good parlour tricks are hard to do! Takes training and cunning.

Different topic ;
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...
However, it's interesting in this video to watch CXW set himself up, his position, etc., when he's dealing with someone trying to honestly hurt him. I learned a lot from that.
I learned more from that Video than from ALL the other push-hands vids I've ever seen. (I don't practice push-hands by the way).

Last edited by Michael Douglas : 04-29-2008 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:58 AM   #138
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

However, it's interesting in this video to watch CXW set himself up, his position, etc., when he's dealing with someone trying to honestly hurt him. I learned a lot from that.

Mike
Mike,
While this is not directly related to the topic at hand I am wondering if all push hands are done with the students facing each other. Is push hands ever trained with the students say, side by side, at odd angles or say on stairs? Something to change it up. Also are there ever any multiple person push hands? Say one guy in the middle and with one in front and one behind? Or say all three facing each other? I am just wondering how far out of the traditional face off this training goes. Thanks.

Mark J.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:35 AM   #139
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Mike,
While this is not directly related to the topic at hand I am wondering if all push hands are done with the students facing each other. Is push hands ever trained with the students say, side by side, at odd angles or say on stairs? Something to change it up. Also are there ever any multiple person push hands? Say one guy in the middle and with one in front and one behind? Or say all three facing each other? I am just wondering how far out of the traditional face off this training goes. Thanks.
Well, push-hands is traditionally delayed until someone has developed some jin/kokyu skills, because push-hands is then the start of learning to use those basic skills in relationship with a partner. If you think about it, Tohei's style has *some* cognates... i.e., the Ki-Society approach (not that I think they're all that successful) doesn't first teach a lot of waza and then try to go back and put ki/kokyu skills into them; they try to not waste time like that.

So anyway, push-hands traditionally starts off with a series of patterns. Those patterns teach moving constantly and unbrokenly with jin/kokyu-skills and they also teach the basic 4 responses in Taiji. Those are the teaching methods of push-hands. However, the success of those teaching methods can usually be seen at a glance, if the results are poor enough, or with a feel (if there is some question). The point to bear in mind is that push-hands is a training methodology to teach jin/kokyu skills and basic technique; it is not fighting.

What happens on the popular front is that push-hands becomes a contest. A form of pretty safe competition. By far and away, most "push-hands competition" is not real or good push-hands but is in effect simply a safe venue to play domination games. In real Taiji, there is a lot of emphasis on throws, locks, and enormous power-releases. In China, during push-hands competitions, the Chen-stylists are not allowed to use the "shaking power" because the other styles aren't trained in it and it is too potentially damaging. So one of the major weapons of Taiji is removed from official contests. If you extrapolate further, you can see that angles and numbers of attackers are simply offshoots of this very basic and clever training methodology.

What we saw on the Liao Bai videotape was sort of interesting. When I first sas the tape, I knew immediately that it was not a push-hands contest, so I put out feelers to see what happened (I posted it previously). So think about it. This guy Liao Bai, instead of approaching Chen Xiaowang legitimately, set up a trap for Chen Xiaowang. But it's immediately obvious that Liao Bai wanted to have a contest in a sort of push-hands mode because it would be safer for him. Pretty soon it's obvious that Liao Bai's main claim to fame is his apparent sudden power release (which appears to be White Crane in origin, but possibly it's a Northern Mantis variety). So what he wants is a voluntary push-hands range so he can use it to try and illegally strike using his power release. Bad ju-ju and knavery, to say the least.

So that was not push-hands ... it was a hokey way of trying to use a push-hands format to inflict damage. And it was also an obvious show that Liao Bai didn't have the nerve to make an official challenge and meet privately for a fight.

Your main question seems to be about the utility of push-hands for practicing "real fighting" scenarios. The answer is that it has limited utility and they do a lot of other practices for real-fighting scenarios. If you run into someone who thinks Taiji fighting is somehow closely related to a push-hands variation, then you know you're talking to an amateur.

Best.

Mike
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:52 AM   #140
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Your main question seems to be about the utility of push-hands for practicing "real fighting" scenarios. The answer is that it has limited utility and they do a lot of other practices for real-fighting scenarios. If you run into someone who thinks Taiji fighting is somehow closely related to a push-hands variation, then you know you're talking to an amateur.
Mike,
Thanks for the interesting response.

Actually my reason for asking the question was not about real fighting scenarios but about changing the elements of a drill to change the experience and potential learning opportunities. While the concepts remain the same, the ability to apply them change (for a time) as the drill is altered from optimum (opponents facing each other) to uncomfortable positions. It all comes down to understanding how the body (yours and your opponents) operates and changing things up a bit can lead to learning....or not. I was just curious if you had seen anything similar. Thanks again.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:22 PM   #141
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Actually my reason for asking the question was not about real fighting scenarios but about changing the elements of a drill to change the experience and potential learning opportunities. While the concepts remain the same, the ability to apply them change (for a time) as the drill is altered from optimum (opponents facing each other) to uncomfortable positions. It all comes down to understanding how the body (yours and your opponents) operates and changing things up a bit can lead to learning....or not. I was just curious if you had seen anything similar. Thanks again.
There is a freestyle form of push-hands where it is possible to explore other positions and insert spontaneous steps. I have seen this done where the participants were essentially facing the same direction and walking together while remaining connected at the hands. As for uncomfortable positions, within the Chen-style fixed-pattern training is a position called da lu which I would say is fairly uncomfortable (although impossible would be the more accurate term for most people).

I think stairs would be kind of a stretch because it would be too difficult to make it work logistically. But if you had something like a landing or place where there is a step down between two levels of floor you could probably do it. As far as multiple-person push-hands, I suppose you could theoretically do a three-person pattern with one person doing a single-hand pattern simultaneously with 2 partners. I've never seen either of those done, though.

Like Mike explains, push-hands training has a specific purpose, and that is to teach the basic ways to respond to and control attacks in a structured but still somewhat spontaneous format. Although the general pattern of movement is typically fixed, the fact that you don't know exactly how I am going to push means that you have to feel my movement and choose your response based on that, and this trains a level of sensitivity in taiji that I find lacking in the much more rigid training of aikido.

When you break connection, as Liao Bai does in the video posted here, you are no longer doing push hands. The reason CXW had so much difficulty in this video is that he was trying to do push-hands while also being ready for the other person to break connection at any time and try an explosive push to the chest. This is quite difficult to do and doesn't make any sense in the logic of either push-hands or actual fighting.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:51 PM   #142
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You don't know any talented magicians then, I take it. The trick is no substitute for seamless action arrived at by dedicated practice -- like anything else. Somehow, I think you would agree with me on that.
Actually, I do. Been to magician-only lectures at the Magic Castle a number of times. This point is an attempt to distract from the fact that you obviously don't know this stuff. If you can't do it, then your explanations are not useful for gaining skill. Which means they're not useful for much of anything other than filling a page with words. You're still not fooling anybody.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:57 PM   #143
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
The reason CXW had so much difficulty in this video is that he was trying to do push-hands while also being ready for the other person to break connection at any time and try an explosive push to the chest. This is quite difficult to do and doesn't make any sense in the logic of either push-hands or actual fighting.
Actually, the way CXW set up classically and it was interesting to watch. But if you cut to the chase, what he did was exactly what "aiki" is, although granted he was doing at against a sudden, large power release done from a very close range. Other than that, his response goal was simply to do "aiki" in response to an attack.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:49 PM   #144
G DiPierro
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, the way CXW set up classically and it was interesting to watch. But if you cut to the chase, what he did was exactly what "aiki" is, although granted he was doing at against a sudden, large power release done from a very close range. Other than that, his response goal was simply to do "aiki" in response to an attack.
This might be true, but I'm not sure how it pertains to my post. All I meant in the section you quoted was that it makes no sense to engage in push-hands with someone who is going to try to break the connection and attack you with a sudden push to the chest, unless, of course, you are trying to do the same thing in response. If you are just going to remain passive and stay in the push-hands pattern waiting for the other person to attack at a time of his choosing, I think you are giving away a significant advantage.

How else do you the explain the fact that CXW is pushed off-balance at the 80 second mark, and by a relatively light push at that? I would assume that you don't think that Liao Bai could have pushed him there if they were just doing normal push-hands without the threat of LB suddenly breaking the pattern and attacking him.
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:00 AM   #145
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
How else do you the explain the fact that CXW is pushed off-balance at the 80 second mark, and by a relatively light push at that? I would assume that you don't think that Liao Bai could have pushed him there if they were just doing normal push-hands without the threat of LB suddenly breaking the pattern and attacking him.
Well, LB got in an off-angled attack at about that time, but it was meaningless and only made CXW step back slightly. BRW, there's longer version of that tape somewhere that shows more pushes, IIRC. This editted version doesn't show Liao Bao getting knocked backwards spectacularly a few times and losing his glasses on the final push.

CXW is not trying to initiate any push to Liao Bai. He is trying to make LB's pushes result in LB getting knocked back. So CXW has to be on a hair trigger edge to be able to do that.

Best.

Mike
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:43 AM   #146
G DiPierro
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, LB got in an off-angled attack at about that time, but it was meaningless and only made CXW step back slightly. BRW, there's longer version of that tape somewhere that shows more pushes, IIRC. This editted version doesn't show Liao Bao getting knocked backwards spectacularly a few times and losing his glasses on the final push.
How was this video edited? I don't see any breaks in the continuity (watch the on-screen clock), so unless there was more action either before CXW shows him how to try to push or after the third person stepped up at the end to intervene I don't see what could be missing. The video does contain the final push where LB's glasses are knocked off, but it looks like CXW's hands just come up as he is receiving the push and accidentally hit the glasses. CXW does seem to get in a couple of decent counter-pushes using his hands way, but I would not characterize any of them as spectacular. Although the attack at the 80 second mark might not be particularly explosive, it was a clean push. Liao Bai did not break connection to do it, and it clearly off-balanced CXW enough that he fell out of connection and had to take a step back.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 04-30-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:10 AM   #147
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
How was this video edited? I don't see any breaks in the continuity (watch the on-screen clock), so unless there was more action either before CXW shows him how to try to push or after the third person stepped up at the end to intervene I don't see what could be missing. The video does contain the final push where LB's glasses are knocked off, but it looks like CXW's hands just come up as he is receiving the push and accidentally hit the glasses. CXW does seem to get in a couple of decent counter-pushes using his hands way, but I would not characterize any of them as spectacular. Although the attack at the 80 second mark might not be particularly explosive, it was a clean push. Liao Bai did not break connection to do it, and it clearly off-balanced CXW enough that he fell out of connection and had to take a step back.
For some reason when I was playing it this morning, the vid stopped early, so I thought it was editted (truncated). At the 80 second mark (1:20) there is a slight but meaningless off-angle attack that also leaves LB with no power.

Incidentally, I hope you don't think the rule is to never be moved, BTW. It's a finer point than that. You want to retain your position in order to respond, but if an opponent gets a firm push/hit in you are supposed to "hop like a sparrow" rather than just absorbing the hit/push. If you watch a lot of Honk Kong, Fujian, etc., push-hands matchs, those guys way over-do the hopping (seems like if their teacher looks at them hard, they hop). But a move back is preferable to just standing there like a stone.

I frankly had a little trouble getting much in the way of strong feelings about this video because it doesn't show much of anything. Obviously, with the occasional smiles and the fact of wearing street clothes and CXW not initiating any attacks, it's not meant to be very serious in terms of anything.

FWIW

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 04-30-2008 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 04-30-2008, 11:05 AM   #148
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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For some reason when I was playing it this morning, the vid stopped early, so I thought it was editted (truncated). At the 80 second mark (1:20) there is a slight but meaningless off-angle attack that also leaves LB with no power.
It looks to me like this is because he is afraid to commit, and I think the reason for this is that on a couple of his earlier pushes CXW did a powerful counter-push by raising his hands and catching LB with the rebound. After that LB seemed more conservative and reluctant to go in too far, even to the point of sometimes trying to jump back himself after pushing to anticipate the response and avoid the counter-push. On that particular push, though, his position was good enough that CXW couldn't counter, and if he had committed to it more fully rather than jumping back I think it would have been much more powerful.

Quote:
Incidentally, I hope you don't think the rule is to never be moved, BTW. It's a finer point than that. You want to retain your position in order to respond, but if an opponent gets a firm push/hit in you are supposed to "hop like a sparrow" rather than just absorbing the hit/push. If you watch a lot of Honk Kong, Fujian, etc., push-hands matchs, those guys way over-do the hopping (seems like if their teacher looks at them hard, they hop). But a move back is preferable to just standing there like a stone.
I don't see any problem with CXW taking a step back on the harder pushes, and it seems to me that he more or less kept his balance well enough on every push except that one.
Quote:
I frankly had a little trouble getting much in the way of strong feelings about this video because it doesn't show much of anything. Obviously, with the occasional smiles and the fact of wearing street clothes and CXW not initiating any attacks, it's not meant to be very serious in terms of anything.
I'd agree with that. It's fun to look at just because it's so rare to see someone of his level out of his comfort zone and to have that recorded on video, but it's obvious that he's letting the other try whatever he wants without responding as he normally would.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:30 PM   #149
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:
Actually, I found this video of Chen Xiaowang very interesting. the short sleeves guy seemed quite intent in knocking over the guy I believe is Chen. He was being attacking with some intent and deflected those attacks with, what looked like, ease. I actually felt a certain amount of excited tension watching the exchange -- kind of like how I feel watching Takeno Sensei doing aikido. It left me interested in learning what they were doing.

On the other hand, the videos posted by m0chamonkey make me a bit embarrassed for the star - who I believe is you. The strikes are slow and obvious. Sure you have to train like that when you are a beginner and learning the movements, but I don't see any real strikes in anything you posted. Don't you have any uke who can attack? What I have seen in about 15 of the 50 videos on Youtube is, to me, fairly basic. If you are good, I recommend you post something that shows it. The video of the knife attack on the trees was not bad though.

Granted I know nothing about what you all are doing or talking about, but you've got Yoshinkan in the subject so I figure it's fair game since I do know something about that.

Spike

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Old 04-30-2008, 04:50 PM   #150
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
... This point is an attempt to distract from the fact that you obviously don't know this stuff. If you can't do it, then your explanations are not useful for gaining skill. Which means they're not useful for much of anything other than filling a page with words. You're still not fooling anybody.
Who am I trying to fool, exactly? You plainly don't get me, but seem compelled to make judgments about me. Why, exactly? What does that accomplish? It was a rhetorical point that mere recognition of the "trick" in any skill does not replace needed practice to increase perception and command of the hidden reality that makes it a "trick" until it is perceived. What is a "trick," after all, but something real that one person perceives and that another person does not?

We do not address what we perceive in remotely the same terms. Therefore, you do not know how to judge me according to your terms. Therefore, you dismiss my observations as unreal or a "trick," because I do not fit your way of framing your perception, or your standard of judgment.

By your standard of judgment I should shut up unless I have touched you, and since I haven't touched you or anyone you would vouch, then I must not know what you are talking about. But if that were true, and since you haven't touched me, then plainly you could not know what I am talking about. But since you make the judgment lacking any personal physical contact basis with me -- you yourself say that makes my judgment tenuous and invalid. Your judgment of me is thus equally tenuous and invalid -- by your standard. So what, then, is your point?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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