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Old 04-24-2008, 07:50 PM   #26
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Robert John wrote:
Quote:
This directly correlates to okamoto's parlor tricks.
The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves.
This is a new idea to me. But perhaps I mis interpret you.
Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly, even the aiki-no-jitsu techniques. In fact, I have done two things in my demonstration videos:

1) I make the circles I use larger than I normally do so that people with a good eye can see how my movement effects uke frame-by-frame

2) I demonstrate the technique slowly first and then at a normal speed. I go slow so that the trained eye can see that, just like basic push hands, I do not break my "sticky connection" until it is time to complete the throw.

The baseline Aiki-Daito strategty is that as soon as you touch me or I touch you, you pay a price. I command your balance and stability. From there, I can play with your base and decide how tightly (how small or at what point in space the pivot point will be) I want to throw you or whether I just want to keep you unstable and punish you with atemi or koppo.

Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body from the get go and continue to read your body like a good masseur or chiropractor would. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap. Smooth and immediate. Not going faster or too slowly, but at the same speed as your body responds to my movement.

So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:16 PM   #27
HL1978
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"
My understanding is that you and uke are to be considered a single body, not two separate independent bodies. (think of a man with four legs, two arms, with the centers connected together.

Mike Sigman has posted a figure of this somewhere which demonstrates it visually/

Last edited by HL1978 : 04-24-2008 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:56 PM   #28
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
My understanding is that you and uke are to be considered a single body, not two separate independent bodies. (think of a man with four legs, two arms, with the centers connected together.

Mike Sigman has posted a figure of this somewhere which demonstrates it visually/
So, how does this model work for you? Are you having some success with it? It is certainly a traditional teaching.

Language is always so difficult to describe body stuff. Let me offer this approach as an alternative model that works for me.

For me, center means "center of gravity". This is very different from many who consider that the center remains inside the pelvic girdle like a 5 gallon can of beans and noodles. A center of gravity has no weight or mass. It is like a quark. And it can move outside the body. Joining centers of gravity is likely an impossibility in Newtonian physics. One center will displace the other quite naturally when the come too close together. When you can feel this activity happening through the connection, techniques are quite light. You are not fighting uke's strength or mass. You are pushing his quark.

(1) My imagery is first to "connect" to the center by way of light compression or extension of uke's joints. In time, we discover that torsion both compresses and extends. But I try to keep people away from torsion until they develop the sensitivity to "read" how linear compression and extension connect to the center. When they feel this, they see how little is really needed. When they are finally introduced to torsion, they do not overdo it. You can over torque and miss the center all together quite easily.

(2) Once connected, I see my center as pushing uke's center from behind. Pulling a center has a bevy of problems related to it. Reducing a long diatribe into one simple idea, when you push uke's center, you can keep his structure moving all at once and you can avoid his strength.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:03 PM   #29
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Only in one technique would I actually "join centers" like you have said. That is Nikyo. There, I do not wish to push uke's center very much..... only enough to attain instability in his spine. Then my weight is dropped down the center of the "bridge" that is made between his and my arms. 255 pounds come crashing softly into the middle of the bridge. If I reduce his base and play with his balance, he will likely not get the full fury of my Nikyo. Once the Nikyo pressure crumbles uke's posture, base and balance like an anvil, I then push his center. It is really a whole different type of technique in the Aiki taxonomy.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:07 PM   #30
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Robert,

Definitions do us little good. My definition of water is different from your definition is different from "his" definition. Further, the context of said definition today is different from the definition in context of the 16th century.

The best we can do is observe with our limited sight, hearing that is distorted by other noises and feeling that is restricted by one's ability to be sensitive.

That said, your definitions are probably closer in "text" than my definition of "jin" based on dreams. As such, I concede to your greater knowledge of the language and current definition.

Now as to the tape. My "stab" is the following. The man on the right has displaced the "linkage" of energy, hydralics and communication. The uke cannot use his arms because they have been placed at a less than 80 degree angle. The wrists are also at less than 80 degree angle. Both the elbow angle and the wrist angle block off communication to muscle connection and energy connection. As such, he is helpless.

Finally, notice the "lean" which is typical in Wu style tai chi. He is using gravitational force or "dead weight" to maintain pressure and thus keeps his opponent in limbo.

Ah that was a fun test. More...my friend.

I do beg to differ with you as to your explanations as to your kicking and the disconnect based on your "sword" japanese structure. And of course, given your knowledge of chinese IMA definitions you have certainly been influenced in your current training. My 2 cents is that you must be careful of the "bridges" structurally between chines IMA and japanese martial arts. Most people do not understand that "mixing" techniques, styles, and philosophies is not so simple as it seems.

Though, the man in the first tape is certainly going in a good direction.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriolas

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-24-2008, 11:29 PM   #31
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post

Finally, notice the "lean" which is typical in Wu style tai chi. He is using gravitational force or "dead weight" to maintain pressure and thus keeps his opponent in limbo.
So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight?

I agree that definitions can raise a conundrum, but the funny thing is that so far most any chinese guy I've met that has the "skills" hasn't quibbled on the definition of Jin that I presented earlier. Most of them end of describing it in a similar fashion from practical experience. Japanese guys with the skills also define that particular power in a similar manner even without access to the traditional CMA texts

Maybe at some point you could post video of yourself doing something similar?
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:06 AM   #32
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Help me out here Robert John. We appear to be approaching the elephant from opposites polar ends.
This conversation might really begin some great synergy. Liike I said earlier:

Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly.

Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap.

So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"[/quote]
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:33 AM   #33
Michael Douglas
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Simple expression of Jin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKxmKQqR1cU

Maybe you'd like to take a stab at explaining how the guy in grey is able to hold the guy in "black" down, and what's being worked on?
Guy in grey is leaning forward more than black and his arms are straight.
If black pushes more he's just going to push himself back over.
In this example Grey needs NOTHING MORE than his lean and straight arms to keep black back.
Now, if you have a vid of Grey not leaning and with bent arms, and Black leaning more with straight arms, and Grey being able to push Black then post it cos that's the one I'd closely study!
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:36 AM   #34
Michael Douglas
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight?
Yes.
As long as when Black releases Grey can hold his balance behind his toes he'll be fine. That's because we have feet which are long and not 'points' to stand on.
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:30 AM   #35
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Robert,

Better yet, let's look at what is behind the skill. Let's use an object to demonstrate the extention of the mind through the connectedness of the object. Watch for the subtle use of the fingers which than produces the moving of the mass connected to the staff. This represents the "five bows" theory:

bow theory 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mMCgafwQYE

bow theory 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nzlr...eature=related

bow theory 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfaKa...eature=related

The tapes give a visualization of how one can knock one's opponent across the room. They show how "stored energy" can be acquired in the body and than "sprung" on one's opponent. I give you this example because it is quite "practical". The "empty force" tapes always leave something to be desired. You must always question if the guys who "emit" can use their "stuff" in an actual combat.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:38 AM   #36
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

[quote=Robert John;204464]So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight?

I agree that definitions can raise a conundrum, but the funny thing is that so far most any chinese guy I've met that has the "skills" hasn't quibbled on the definition of Jin that I presented earlier. Most of them end of describing it in a similar fashion from practical experience. Japanese guys with the skills also define that particular power in a similar manner even without access to the traditional CMA texts

Robert,

This quote is from the Formosa Neijia Blog and the Wonderous Channel Dave Chesser. Perhaps, you can quibble with him about interpretating chinese:

"QUOTE: Thoughts on translation
April 24th, 2008 9 Comments CPL taiji

After translating the Chen Pan-ling form names, I was left puzzled by a few of the quirks I encountered. Here they are:

1. 撇身pie shen what exactly does "pie" mean here? This is a fairly rare verb.

2. 如封似閉 rufeng sibi seal and close. This one seems a little odd, too. What is being sealed and what is being closed?

3. 進步 jin bu (step in) and 上步 shangbu (step up) both get translated as "step forward." Are we perhaps missing a nuance there?

4. 拗步倒攆猴 aobu daonian hou twist step and repluse (drive out) the monkey and 順步倒攆猴 shunbu daonian hou same side step and repulse (drive out) the monkey shows something i've never seen discussed in IMA before same side (shunbu) vs. twist step (aobu) power. This is a really important topic in IMA, yet I've never seen it mentioned. Curious.

In the CPL taiji form, repulse monkey is done in both shunbu and aobu forms, the only taiji form that I know of that does this. This allows the twist step and same side step versions to be contrasted in terms of power and technique. Where does the power come from in a twist step? How does doing the technique in a same side step change the applications? Lots of things to uncover in a topic like this.

(Please note that 繞步 raobu and 拗步 aobu are different. I translated both as twist step but they are different. Raobu is really twisting while aobu uses a type of cross power. If you fully twist aobu it becomes raobu.)

Robert, your water is different than my water, is different than "his" water. So, what does jin mean again?

Sincerely,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:56 AM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Just a comment to note that those examples have almost nothing to do with the five-bows theory. I have no idea whether Rob John knows what the five-bows theory is (it's a Taiji term, for the most part), but actually, Rob John and his teacher use some of the mechanics involved in the so-called "five-bows" mechanism. I happen to know what the five-bows description is about fairly well and that stuff on the videos is not it.

I'm beginning to get curious what style of Taiji you're claiming to have studied for so many years, Joseph. What you've been showing as Taiji, from the push-hands to the "five-bows" is not traditional Taiji and it's not even good Taiji... and, not surprisingly, most of your examples are not from Taiji at all, but from downstream-arts based on southern Shaolin trapping and bridging. Is your Taiji something you've more or less developed yourself?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:07 AM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

[quote=Joseph Arriola;204489]
Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight?

I agree that definitions can raise a conundrum, but the funny thing is that so far most any chinese guy I've met that has the "skills" hasn't quibbled on the definition of Jin that I presented earlier. Most of them end of describing it in a similar fashion from practical experience. Japanese guys with the skills also define that particular power in a similar manner even without access to the traditional CMA texts

Robert,

This quote is from the Formosa Neijia Blog and the Wonderous Channel Dave Chesser. Perhaps, you can quibble with him about interpretating chinese:

"QUOTE: Thoughts on translation
April 24th, 2008 9 Comments CPL taiji

After translating the Chen Pan-ling form names, I was left puzzled by a few of the quirks I encountered. Here they are:

1. 撇身pie shen — what exactly does "pie" mean here? This is a fairly rare verb.

2. 如封似閉 rufeng sibi — seal and close. This one seems a little odd, too. What is being sealed and what is being closed?

3. 進步 jin bu (step in) and 上步 shangbu (step up) both get translated as "step forward." Are we perhaps missing a nuance there?

4. 拗步倒攆猴 aobu daonian hou — twist step and repluse (drive out) the monkey and 順步倒攆猴 shunbu daonian hou — same side step and repulse (drive out) the monkey shows something i've never seen discussed in IMA before — same side (shunbu) vs. twist step (aobu) power. This is a really important topic in IMA, yet I've never seen it mentioned. Curious.

In the CPL taiji form, repulse monkey is done in both shunbu and aobu forms, the only taiji form that I know of that does this. This allows the twist step and same side step versions to be contrasted in terms of power and technique. Where does the power come from in a twist step? How does doing the technique in a same side step change the applications? Lots of things to uncover in a topic like this.

(Please note that 繞步 raobu and 拗步 aobu are different. I translated both as twist step but they are different. Raobu is really twisting while aobu uses a type of cross power. If you fully twist aobu it becomes raobu.)

Robert, your water is different than my water, is different than "his" water. So, what does jin mean again?

Sincerely,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Joseph, please do us a favor and make it clear where your quotations begin and end and who exactly is speaking, not just where you copied the material from.

Dave Chesser was on the QiJin forum for a while, BTW, and I doubt that he has much quibble about the way "jin" is translated. Rob is correct; you're not.

In regards to the terms in the discussion (like "sealing and closing", the movements with twist step, etc.) those are pretty straightforward. Why not just discuss with Rob instead of trying to always dominate and pretend that you're "advanced" when it's pretty obvious to most of the older hands that you're not. Didn't you run into these kinds of problems on EmptyFlower, already?

If you want to assert things without anyone questioning you, maybe it's easier to do it to your "students". Making statements about common classical concepts seems to lead us always back to the idea that you don't need to explain and anyone who questions you must assuredly be far below you in skills. Seems like a low-percentage bet for you to try that, unless you think everyone you encounter was just born yesterday.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:11 AM   #39
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

[quote=Mike Sigman;204493][quote=Joseph Arriola;204489]

Mike,

Let's stick to the technique. Do you have something to offer? Or do you just want to start arguements about "words"?

Several tapes have been put up. Let's try to keep our insecurities out of this.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:16 AM   #40
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Help me out here Robert John. We appear to be approaching the elephant from opposites polar ends.
This conversation might really begin some great synergy. Liike I said earlier:

Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly.

Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap.

So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"
[/quote]
Hi Chris

It means more or less what Hunter said.
You're the controlling side of one "four legged animal", and as such you simply manipulate "yourself" in order to get an effect on your opponent, at least in the beginning. It also means that no matter what happens, you never respond using local force, and for the most part the transmission of "kokyu/jin" starts in the legs.

From what I've heard, dropping the weight in the manner you've mentioned etc isn't expressedly used in Sagawa's DRAJJ that I've heard of.
Think of it this way...if you weighed half of what you weigh now, and still had to affect Uke's that were twice as heavy as you, could you get away using the weight transfer method you've mentioned?
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:16 AM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Let's stick to the technique.
Hey, you're the one using the "words" like "five-bows". If you're going to use the words, I would suggest that it might be worthwhile to learn what they mean. Take any concept you showed on those videos and tell us how it represents the "five bows", Joseph. You're the one that started the conversation... it seems that you suddenly want to change the conversation when it gets warm. Go ahead and give us an explanation. Just one "technique" from your videos.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:24 AM   #42
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Robert, your water is different than my water, is different than "his" water. So, what does jin mean again?
Hi Joseph,

Actually I prefer Volvic over Perrier. The bubbles give me gas
Joke, no offense intended.

But seriously, you've been around the CMA community long enough, maybe its time you stopped pulling our legs
Jin is Jin no matter who you goto who has skills.
I dont think its any coincidence that I goto a guy that learned a Hakka style of home-brewed internal (to put it crudely) and still gets more or less the same results and descriptions as the "pure bred" chen dudes when it comes to Jin.

If you can do Jin there's no quibbling over that particular definition.
And I haven't seen even Chesser quibble about the definition of Jin.

All MA guys that have "skill" have this basic "skill," be it Japanese, Chinese or whatever. How they manipulate it, use it, train it is where the "my style is better than yours! nyah!" arguments start.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:29 AM   #43
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Guy in grey is leaning forward more than black and his arms are straight.
If black pushes more he's just going to push himself back over.
In this example Grey needs NOTHING MORE than his lean and straight arms to keep black back.
Now, if you have a vid of Grey not leaning and with bent arms, and Black leaning more with straight arms, and Grey being able to push Black then post it cos that's the one I'd closely study!
True, but I'll bet you dinner and a whole round of drinks that you could lean on me in the manner that "Grey" does and I'd still be able to push you back. (Assuming you only outweigh me by about 20lb or so, there's a limit to these skills, they don't make you superman!)
Sure the lean is a slight additive but he's not resting his weight on him
(shameless plug for the DC seminar: any naysayers about this can try it at the seminar ).

Maybe you missed what I said, but black could release his hands and Grey would NOT pitch forward, ie, he's not committing his weight even if it looks like it.
You could mimic the position and not get the same result.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:39 AM   #44
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Robert,

We have in common our quest to "see what others do not". I learn from this process and I thank you for the interaction.

Best,
Joseph

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:41 AM   #45
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Think of it this way...if you weighed half of what you weigh now, and still had to affect Uke's that were twice as heavy as you, could you get away using the weight transfer method you've mentioned?[/quote]

Weight dropping to me is simple physics. I can catch a bowling ball pretty well if my posture is stable (structure) and if my hands are close to my center of gravity. I cannot do it if (1) I am unstable and/or (2) I try to do it with my hands outstretched (far from my own center of gravity).

Dropping weight has nothing to do with applying force. It is about letting gravity take over.

You ever heard the joke about the midget who went into the bar, picked out a fellow and said, "do you want to fight me buddy?"
When the guy responded willingly, the midget pointed to a really giant fellow and said, "well, there's me buddy."

I have five buddies. They are my big brothers. Gravity, momentum, centripital force, centrifugal force and friction. The more you get out of the way and let these big brothers do the job, the lighter the technique becomes.

But, if it was just about joining centers and heaviness, four legged tables would not be stable. They would fall down if you placed weight on them. There is a lot more to discuss here. What causes instability? Can it be isolated and tauht independently from technique and style much like you study your own personal structure.

You have to place some form of stress on the structure so that uke buckles at some point. Not muscular force. Muscular force can tip off uke and he will fortify the area being stressed.

In another strand I talked about using the visualization of cutting through butter. After making a specific study of how the body buckles, you just drop weight like you are dropping a men cut with a wsord and trust that gravity will drop your weight through the vulnerable area.

I hope to include these ideas in this weekend's video.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:44 AM   #46
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Chris,

You go...man. Put your stuff up!!!

Sincerely
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:58 AM   #47
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Robert John wrote:
Quote:
Hi Chris
Think of it this way...if you weighed half of what you weigh now, and still had to affect Uke's that were twice as heavy as you, could you get away using the weight transfer method you've mentioned?
The answer is Yes. Resoundingly so. This is the core truth about the Ju in Jujitsu and it even becomes more specifically true when a Jujitsu man begins to learn Aiki. I would like to raise the bar on the saying "four ounces can move a thousand pounds". Why quibble over two or four. Can we do it with one ounce? I think so and herein lies an essential difference in Tai Chi versus Daito secrets.

IMO, most Tai Chi focusses on bouncing and uprooting with fajing. Aikijujutsu focusses on kuzushi (the set up) before the throw. In reality, throws are an anti-climax if "The big guy has been placed at the edge of the cliff". I also noticed and felt a Chen Man Cheng style teacher do the same. It really impressed me. He had set me up with kuzushi before he bounced me. It was very smooth. I mentioned this before and got blasted by the critics for suggesting that Chen Man Cheng's style was what I was working toward.

The trick is that folks who study structure (Tai Chi guys, wrestlers, etc) are pretty sensitive to what your touch is doing to them (the set up). I use a variety of ways to "trick" uke in the set up phase. Most are internal techniques. Getting decent at them as well. But I claim no mastery of it. I have seen the masters at play. I have a ways to go.
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:08 AM   #48
DH
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly.
Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap.
So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"
Chris
The types of movement you typically describe are basic jujutsu. Nothing more. I'm not critisizing you for it-not by a long shot. Its just how I see it.
Often there is a common misconception when folks see some subtle jujutsu "techniques" and call it aiki. It isn't aiki and it isn't internal. Moreover it will often fail as a means of moving against the type of training Rob is describing. I would beg to differ with Robs assessment of only working with a limit of a 20lb advantage, as I've seen these things work against a 100lb advantage. Meaning, the type of movements and those types of manipulations you describe can be gotten around or gone through with proper body training-not too mention just good fighting skills.

I'm no fan of subtle "waza" as anything meaningful in combatives. "Subtle" can fly right out the window under stress. That said, if your goal is to get to a higher level with more powerful, capturing and consistent movement- then concentrating on trying to "do things" to people is the wrong direction to go. What Rob was laying out for you is the first step into a deeper level of understanding. Which on any other day should really be a fist-step for everyone. That is you learning to manage and carry-you. To make it simple rising energy or sinking energy is happening in you. Your opponent encounters it and is controlled by you moving you- not him. And that is just two, simple examples. Other, more definitive actions, even a simple pivot can control on contact and are still a manipulation of your own body that control him. The fun starts after developing power-the use of it in a myriad of ways.
Even something as simple as a strike can be different. A full power strike can off-balance you an internal strike doesn't and delivers more mass. As an examples of mimicing- there is a way to cheat and use the scapulars and do a soft *wave* strike from the heels up that mimics internal power-but it isn't.

Your mention of "Good Daito" is no promise of anything. Daito ryu schools are as dismissive of each others efforts by way of Aiki as anyone else-and just as open to inane and perfectly useless aiki-waza as anyone else. You have to really search to find someone with power and skill.
Yes good jujutsu can be done slowly, but that statement is meaningless as any defining differentiation between Daito ryu, or jujutsu, or aiki. Subtle "technique" and movement can be an excellent mask to allow people to completely miss the mark. Good waza, is just more good waza. So what.

The same thing happens when folks see the various types of "Aiki-sword" and think it has anything to do with real weapons work and mistakenly call it koryu. Your videos on that other thread showing your movements with the sword looked more like those modern, California "aiki-contrived" re-creations and not a Koryu. Further there were many openeings in it and a bleeding of energy. It's not a use of weapons I'd subscribe to.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Good luck in your training

Last edited by DH : 04-25-2008 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:12 AM   #49
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Chris,

You go...man. Put your stuff up!!!

Sincerely
Joe
Joe and I are coming from different backgrounds and studies in the arts. His use of words and mine are also divergent at times and convergent at times. But if anyone takes tyhe time to "feel" his touch, you know he has depth.

When I attended my first class with him, I tried to empty my cup..... even though my cup overfows with some very precise language. I tried to do what he taugh and "mimic" his movement. By the third class, Joe mentioned how much I had grown.

Part of that growth was his excellent teaching style. Other was my becoming confortable that some of what he taught, my body knew from my own studies and my own language. The non-verbal communication was what makes me want to continue to train with him. He has stuff I really want to include in my own path.

I suspect Joe has learned much of his stuff from visions and dreams as much as what he got from his path of teachers. If this is anywhere correct, he has also tapped into the atavistic mind in a way that is superb. Language often gets in the way of what we instinctively know. Studying the logic of Aristotle is great study but so is the study of the work of a village shaman.
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:46 AM   #50
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Dan Hardin wrote:
Quote:
I'm no fan of subtle "waza" as anything meaningful in combatives. That said, if your goal is to get to a higher level with more powerful, capturing and consistent movement- then concentrating on trying to "do things" to people is the wrong direction to go.
Personally, I love my path and am doing well with it. I am able to self correct and work long periods without visits to my Renshi. But I do respect your path as well.

Quote:
What Rob was laying out for you is the first step into a deeper level of understanding. Which on any other day should really be a fist-step for everyone. To make it simple rising energy or sinking energy is happening in you. Your opponent encounters it and is controlled by you moving you- not him. And that is just two, simple examples.
In good "Process Philosophy" fashion, nothing happens except that it effects both parties. We do not act upon uke expect that the action changes us as well.

Concerning a two person push hands, I could emit fajing, but without connecting to the center of gravity by way of linking up bone structure, the energy will not uproot uke; will it? That is why we often have to bypass the forearms and humerous when pushing hands with a Tai Chi Man, we have to go directly to the rib cage as their soulders are and remain loose and suple in the play.

Quote:
A full power strike can off-balance you an internal strike doesn't and delivers more mass.
Agreed, but losing balance is not uprooting or falling down. They are very different processes. If I take someones balance without effecting his stability (even with a powerful punch), he just "trides it" by taking a step and creates a new base. And you are right, I use a wave when striking of bouncing people. It works and does not hurt my old broken up body.

Quote:
Your mention of "Good Daito" is no promise of anything. Daito ryu schools are as dismissive of each others efforts by way of Aiki as anyone else-and just as open to inane and perfectly useless aiki-waza as anyone else. You have to really search to find someone with power and skill.
In truth, Yanagi is in this context, a subset of the Daito family. My stuff on Youtube has gotten the attention of several Daito instructors. I have only shown the tip of my technical iceberg out of respect for my Koryu. I have gotten some pretty good comments from the Daito guys.

Quote:
Yes good jujutsu can be done slowly, but that statement is meaningless as any defining differentiation between Daito ryu, or jujutsu, or aiki. Subtle "technique" and movement can be an excellent mask to allow people to completely miss the mark. Good waza, is just more good waza. So what.
I am all about improving waza; making my movements smaller and more subtle while getting more effect. To me, the Daito was like today's nuclear secrets. Feudal Japan spent a lot of time and money developing their military capabilities in this respect. I am pretty sure that they stole, reverse-engineered, and even self-developed as well as modern Japan does the same with electronics other forms of manufacturing.

They are, as a culture, sticklers for detail. I like what I have discovered so far and have a pretty focussed path. But as I said before, Dan, I would love to get together and feel what you are talking about.
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