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Old 03-31-2008, 05:54 PM   #51
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
I will ask again, how is this different than kid's wrestling, kid's karate, or kid's judo? Or are you equally bothered by that?
Real quickly I liked to ask, why can't kids wait? What is the rush?

Yes, I am. More bothered by MMA for kids. Sparring/Kumite completely out until 18. The mentality etc. of each activity is different from each other. Each then has a result that is different on kids from 6-18 years old.

For many parents like me, having kids do MMA isn't going to put adult MMA in a good light. You might see more of a resistance to MMA then other contact activies the day one kid is seriously injuried or dies. The younger the kid's age I think the greater the back-lash is going to be against MMA.

I think there is only one state that allows kids MMA events. That makes a majority of parents who don't favor kids MMA.

I am not trying to persuade you, or anyone. If you think your kids need to be in MMA, their your kids.

Last edited by Buck : 03-31-2008 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:47 PM   #52
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'm not worried about joint locks and children. I've watched many kids bjj matches and not seen nearly as many injuries as kids judo (which does not allow joint locks). I am more worried about striking. I personally do not think kids should be in striking arts until their teens. Grappling is something kids do naturally for fun, striking is something they do in anger. Most kids can not disassociate anger from strking.
That is a very good point you made about striking. Again...I'm all for children learning martial arts, but only to learn *self-defense* - not so they can learn to *hit* another kid better.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:02 PM   #53
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Real quickly I liked to ask, why can't kids wait? What is the rush?

Yes, I am. More bothered by MMA for kids. Sparring/Kumite completely out until 18. The mentality etc. of each activity is different from each other. Each then has a result that is different on kids from 6-18 years old.

For many parents like me, having kids do MMA isn't going to put adult MMA in a good light. You might see more of a resistance to MMA then other contact activies the day one kid is seriously injuried or dies. The younger the kid's age I think the greater the back-lash is going to be against MMA.

I think there is only one state that allows kids MMA events. That makes a majority of parents who don't favor kids MMA.

I am not trying to persuade you, or anyone. If you think your kids need to be in MMA, their your kids.
Hi Phillip,

Actually, I really liked your thoughtful reply. I'm not 100% convinced that the idea of children's MMA matches as an exhibition is a good idea either, although I don't see the problem at all with the training and in very rare cases supervised sparring. Would I send my child to an academy that offered children's MMA? If it were practiced in a safe and ethical manner (and that is, of course, possible), then perhaps, but in terms of a full blown match? Probably not. But I'm never going to have a MMA match either, despite training in it.

I still feel that there's been a great deal of undue sensationalism in the reporting and response to the mainstream story about this children's MMA. I just watched half a dozen videos puporting to be children's MMA, including one exhibition in front of an audience in a cage. I have yet to see any sort of actual, intense match. If you think it is, it's because you've never really watched it. It looked very much like friendly sparring every clip I've watched so far. I've definitely seen youth wrestling, football collisions, and kid's acting out professional wrestling video clips that much more intense and much much more dangerous than the videos. I earnestly think that the response has been overblown and ignorant (although I understand where it's coming from).

As a general note, I am seeing that too many people around here expressing that Mixed Martial Arts are all about "brawling" or "cockfighting" or being "locked in a cage" (no one's being locked in cage. this isn't the same as locking up two chickens with blades attached to their legs. Let's get real here. These are trained athletes in a highly regulated environment, and Japan - the birthplace and cultural origin of Aikido - eats it up as popular entertainment for males and females of all ages) and are far too dismissive of the reality that training in those associated arts or sports takes just as much discipline, genuine humility and work as Aikido does.

Yes, it can be uncomfortably violent for some people. It's not for everyone. I don't think it should or can be for everyone. Yes, I understand there's philosophical and cultural underpinnings to the pursuit of Aikido that hold great meaning to some - I appreciate Aikido, I really do -

- but from someone with more first hand experience than most of you, there's no "brawling mentality" in my fellow MMA or BJJ practitioners (and there are some fighters alongside me, yes), no one's "chest thumping" or bragging they beat up an Aikidoka next door, and no one's learning those skills because they want to "prove their art better than yours" or anything like that. (I've read all of those quotes on this board since joining). They're just like Aikido in the sense of a having good spirit for training, self improvement and exploration, and everyone working for mutual benefit.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:51 PM   #54
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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- but from someone with more first hand experience than most of you, there's no "brawling mentality" in my fellow MMA or BJJ practitioners (and there are some fighters alongside me, yes), no one's "chest thumping" or bragging they beat up an Aikidoka next door, and no one's learning those skills because they want to "prove their art better than yours" or anything like that. (I've read all of those quotes on this board since joining). They're just like Aikido in the sense of a having good spirit for training, self improvement and exploration, and everyone working for mutual benefit.
Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience with MMA. However, although the "chest-thumping" and "my art is better than yours" attitude may not be prevalent in your school, it *has* been expressed in other fora (especially in a *certain* MMA-dominated forum which delights in bad-mouthing most everyone who *doesn't* practice MMA) and all over YouTube. With all honesty, it gets tiresome after a while (personally, I just ignore those sites and YouTube comments) - and yes, it doesn't exactly help paint a positive picture of MMA to those of us "from the outside looking in". And you know what they say about first impressions...

Seriously, though...do you understand where some of us are coming from?

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:10 AM   #55
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Many form an opinion about aikido too. Aikibunnies, aikifruties, and all that other wonderful stuff come to mind, based on youtube, websites, and things that people post.

Participating in both areas, MMA/BJJ and Aikido I fail to see the validity of both arguments and find it quite senseless to let ignorant, immature people that represent the minority of both arts dominate and rule the judgement of these arts at large.

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Old 04-01-2008, 10:06 AM   #56
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

MMA should not be promoted to children.
I think that ameture boxing, wrestling, judo is fine to promote to children, but I think MMA is far too violent to be pushed upon children. Not to mention the trashy culture that goes along with MMA: tattoos, wild-party mentality (drinking/recreational drug culture), promotions to/and glamorization of pornography (Tito Ortez's obviously staged "relationship" to porn-whore Jenna is the prime example of this, but there are others), advocation of steroids (MMA has done more to promote steroid abuse to youngster than any other sport today--can we even see a MMA event today on the tube that doesn't sport a bunch of juiced out retards?), and the list can continue and does continue. I don't want a society of children looking up to these punks, who have the wrong idea of what it means to be a man.

Children need to be taught that a real man marries a woman, stays devoted to his wife, takes care of his family, and studies to improve himself. Real men don't need recreational drugs to have a good time. They don't need anabolic steroids to get the job done.

People forget that MMA is simply the attempt to make one-on-one street fighting into a sport. It fails because there are no rules, judges, padded floors, and refs. There is no surety that multiple people will not enter into the equation; no certainty that a plethora of weapons will not enter the theatre; and no guarentee you won't go to jail, prison, or the grave when it is all said and done. Another aspect that MMA fails to produce that a real street fight often provides is the element of actual anger and/or wrath. Someone untrained, yet enraged and fighting for a cause he believes in, can be near impossible to stop, even for an expert fighter. Those who have been in some real vicious fights don't look at fighting as a joke; they look at MMA as a joke when compared to an actual fight.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:42 AM   #57
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Many form an opinion about aikido too. Aikibunnies, aikifruties, and all that other wonderful stuff come to mind, based on youtube, websites, and things that people post.
Oh yes...and the one website that shall remain nameless even had an "Aikido sucks!" month.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Participating in both areas, MMA/BJJ and Aikido I fail to see the validity of both arguments and find it quite senseless to let ignorant, immature people that represent the minority of both arts dominate and rule the judgement of these arts at large.
Unfortunately, it just takes a few "bad apples" to spoil the fun for everyone. I don't know much about MMA, but I really don't care for the attitudes I saw in some of its practitioners. One MMA instructor even called me a "LARPer in denial", because I didn't advocate free sparring with bokken.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:41 PM   #58
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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I will ask again, how is this different than kid's wrestling, kid's karate, or kid's judo? Or are you equally bothered by that?
None of the aforementioned kid's sports permit beating on of a competitor who has been taken to the ground and "mounted". Nor do they permit choking, stomping upon a downed competitor or joint locks intended to submit a competitor.
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:32 PM   #59
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I'll start by saying I have mixed feelings about this. But since other folks have already said the things against it that I might, I think I'll share some of my thoughts in favor of it.

With all due respect, the safety argument is full of holes. Compare boxing, which normally starts kids at this age, with MMA. Boxing, accoring to this article in EJMAS, http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm, has had over 1400 recorded deaths. MMA has had exactly one, Sam Vasquez from Texas, RIP. According to this article from the Journal of Sports Science and Medicine, http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf, fewer than half of professional MMA fighters (with no protective equipment, who generate exponentially higher forces than those of amateur children) had injuries at the end of a fight. Of those, almost half were facial lacerations, another roughly 6% were blunt facial injuries (black eye, busted nose, etc.), and fewer than 3% were to joints. The correlation between age and injury showed that the incidence of injury rose with age.

So let's look at other things kids could be doing. In 1998 (according to this fact sheet http://www.wwgh.com/search/webpages/facts/bike.htm) nearly 362,000 kids were injured on a bicycle seriously enough to warrant a trip to the ER. 226 of those kids died, 200 of which were struck by a motor vehicle. Another study done in Norway cited here http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;105/3/659 showed that 81% of adult soccer players had mild to severe defecits in memory, cognition, and attention compared to non-soccer playing controls. Hmm, maybe Eli Lilly should sign up as a soccer tournament sponsor...?

My point is this - yes you can get hurt doing MMA. However, there are a lot of other things kids do that get them hurt on a very regular basis (or even killed, which doesn't seem to happen in even in pro MMA very frequently). If your reason for being against kids doing MMA is safety, then there are a great many things you should also be against. At what point do you draw the line between the risks of any sport and the benefits of participation?

What are the benefits? The father who was interviewed on CNN this weekend about his children participating in MMA competition said that the teacher was very careful to teach the same moral principles about limiting technique to the mats and to emergencies that were taught in the kids' previous dojo (or dojang, as I think he said they did TKD before this). To me that is the crucial role that the parent plays - finding the Mr. Miyagi in a sea of Kreese Senseis. Choose well, and your kid can get the same self-esteem/self-control/self-defense benefits he or she can get in any other martial art at that age.

That plays into another point - what about the violence? Someone quoted one of the MMA kids talking about being able to punch someone without getting into trouble. He could have said, yeah it's cool cause I can go to school and beat everybody up. But to me, what he said and how he said it reflects an underlying understanding that this is only for the ring, and no where else. We have all seen that kids who train at quality martial art schools tend not to be bullies, despite popular (ignorant) public belief. They also tend not to be the bullied, for that matter. How many kids have we seen in highly publicized cases kill younger kids with moves they learned watching WWE or playing Mortal Kombat? Is it not worth thinking that if these kids had been in a dojo learning some sort of martial art including MMA which gave them both moral training and an appropriate outlet for aggression, maybe that would not have happened?

Okay, I'll grant you that there are other martial arts which may be more age appropriate. However, the other martial arts are now fighting a public opinion fight. We've seen over and over ad nauseam how folks will come on here and say how much better MMA/BJJ is than aikido in a "real" fight. They go on the karate, TKD, judo, etc boards and say the same thing. When dad's kicked back on the sofa watching Spike TV or surfing the net thinking about what martial art he wants his kid to learn so he doesn't get knocked around in school, MMA is right there waiting for him in all its obviously effective gory...er I mean glory. It's gritty, hard core, and just what his son needs to win any fight he comes up against. Plus it will give him a leg up on high school wrestling down the road.

Or maybe he's thinking about his daughter. He's visited several schools in the area, but none of them seem to offer her any defense if she ends up on the ground. BJJ/MMA is a very obvious choice to him as an anti-rape defense. Yes, there are many other martial arts that would offer his kids as many if not more options in a fight than those two (and without the need to go into the ring). Unless mom and dad know about them though, they'll pick what they think works best of the ones they do know.

So am I going to enroll my young son in MMA? Probably not. Kung fu is probably where we will start, moving to ju-jitsu and then aikido once he is cognitively ready for it. Yes, I did say ju-jitsu first because he does have the makings of a very talented wrestler. But if he decides later on his own that he wants to try MMA, then I'll find the right teacher and make him a good mouthguard.

Okay, sorry for the long post. Please flame away.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:01 PM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I have to say I really liked the posts in this thread. I first heard about this on Friday night, and was pretty horrified at first thought. But after reading this thread, I've decided my first instinct was incorrect. With the right instructor, in the right setting, and the right ruleset, there's probably no reason why not. Just like the judo rules for kids, or wrestling (which I used to do).

Of course the media has all kinds of hype for the new fad. But from what I've seen of MMA, it will be here long after the hype is gone, and if so, you can bet kids will be doing it. Prefferably in a gym/dojo, with a qualified instructor, yada yada yada.

As for the screaming parents...oh well. You know parents...

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-01-2008, 05:36 PM   #61
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I pray for the kids who don't have a good instructor, with good parents behind them, and in the gym having good kids and their parents. Ideally, the kids getting all the proper

For the less ideal conditions, it sure will weed out the "weak" kids. Those who can't take it. Because if you think about it, you really have to condition those kids mentally to stay in it for the long run- 6 mos.

My new tag: Why start them so early, what is the rush?
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:14 PM   #62
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Good point to bring up the media. It is a very powerful tool. If I remember the media played a pivotal role in public opinion in the Viet Nam war.

Most parents are not conditioned to the intense brutality of the UFC then upon seeing a fight, you think they are going say, yea, that is what my kid is going to do. Most parents are going be reject the idea that their kid is going to do such a thing. Parents by the score are going to avoid putting their kids in a "cockfight."

The adult MMA association of violence of a fight shown on TV I think would be enough to scare parents away in some places for fear of child abuse charges faced for putting their kids in MMA. Key in to the association of, and the sensitivity and little tolerance many states have for the mistreatment of a child.
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:25 PM   #63
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Just last night I watched a parent chew out one of my son's Judo Yundansha Sensei because her son worked hard and deserved a yellow belt!

Son was standing right next to the mom and sensei when this went down.

Sigh!

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Old 04-01-2008, 07:28 PM   #64
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Some of you act like you are throwing a untrained kid in the ring to the wolves!

Keep in mind that most of these kids want to do this. They have proper training, and coaching. They are put in there with a ref, and a another kid at the same skill level, age and weight appropriate, there are rules.

This is not a cockfight.

It would be if you simply took your scared 8 year old to the ring, told him to suck it up, he needed to be a man, then threw him into the cage against another kid equally scared, no rules, people yelling kill him, kill him, and then told them that the only way out was to render the other kid unconscious or unable to fight.

That is a cockfight, this is not what we are talking about.

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Old 04-01-2008, 09:00 PM   #65
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I'm beginning to think that maybe I've become a little more immune to violence than I thought I was. The last three UFC pay per views that I've seen seemed no more "brutal" to me than the last five boxing matches that I've watched, nor for that matter more than the last several professional hockey matches. We won't even go into the staged dramatic brawling that goes on in WWE these days... Now the original UFC stuff before they toned it down to gain state sanctioning was over the edge, especially when it was still controlled in part by Rorion Gracie. Vale tudo is and always has been very brutal, but that is not the same as what MMA/UFC fighting is today. MMA hasn't been vale tudo really since UFC 28, which was the first bout sanctioned by Nevada under the new rules.

Nor is it the same as what these kids are doing. In vale tudo there was no regard for weight, size or skill, nor rules concerning illegal strike zones and techniques. That would definitely be a terrible thing to allow a child to do. But again, that is not what these kids are doing. They seem to be following a rule set that is even more protective than the state sanctioning board rules tend to be. Take a look at the rules from Missouri's governing board here - http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/cu.../20c2040-8.pdf, while keeping in mind that the kids matches involve more protective gear than what is allowed for the adults.

My guess is that any ref and any organization who wants to keep from having their pants sued off is going to err on the side of caution when calling kids matches. However, if they and the instructors are like most of the martial arts folks that I know who work with children, they really care about the kids they instruct. While most might see the occasional bloody nose or black eye as a learning experience, they'd be utterly mortified to even think about something serious happening to one of the youngsters on their watch.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:06 PM   #66
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
None of the aforementioned kid's sports permit beating on of a competitor who has been taken to the ground and "mounted". Nor do they permit choking, stomping upon a downed competitor or joint locks intended to submit a competitor.
Are you 100% kid's MMA does? Or are you just assuming that kids are doing exactly what is shown in the UFC?

I think there is a good, fruitful discussion to be had about safety in kids' MMA. Just as in Little League, wherein children do not (or should not) play in the exact same manner as Major League Baseball, by no means should kids be in the same conditions as Pride or the UFC. So, yes, by all means, talking about what should be allowed at what age is absolutely important.

However, that discussion cannot be had if one's idea of MMA is of "juiced up retards", "brutally" fighting in a "bare-knuckled" "human cockfight". Anyone with such an idea of MMA is not informed enough to participate in the discussion. To be sure, the American MMA community (specifically the UFC) is largely responsible for the grievously distorted view many hold of the sport (and art). But that doesn't absolve others from being properly informed if they want to hold an informed opinion. The newscasters in the clip above were derelict in this, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Last edited by Josh Reyer : 04-01-2008 at 09:20 PM.

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Old 04-01-2008, 09:09 PM   #67
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Some of you act like you are throwing a untrained kid in the ring to the wolves!

Keep in mind that most of these kids want to do this. They have proper training, and coaching. They are put in there with a ref, and a another kid at the same skill level, age and weight appropriate, there are rules.

This is not a cockfight.

It would be if you simply took your scared 8 year old to the ring, told him to suck it up, he needed to be a man, then threw him into the cage against another kid equally scared, no rules, people yelling kill him, kill him, and then told them that the only way out was to render the other kid unconscious or unable to fight.

That is a cockfight, this is not what we are talking about.
Fair enough, lets see this through Soccer Mommy Public's eyes, with a vague understanding of martial arts; McDojos where kids are doing acrobatic dance.

Kids want to ride bike, drive cars, hang out with friends, bullies want to hurt other kids. Kids should study to go to college. Kids should do nice sports like soccer, tennis, sports that are acceptable at school. The kind of sports where I won't see my child get thrown head first to the ground, or sat upon and punched by another.

Then have her watch UFC, she will be horrified. Then tell her that her husband wants their kids to do it.

In her eyes, MMA is a cockfight.

There are some parents who will push their kids into MMA, there are few who will guide their kids, whereas others will regret it.

What emotional and psychological price will kids pay for being a MMA kid fighter? Sure it depends on their parents, and society. Your views are based on you and your experience in martial arts. That makes you the minority parent. But what about the rest of the parents that are not like you?

Did you hear how third graders plotted to kill a teacher. They were well organized and had weapons. Do you think there is enough violence that kids are exposed in life? My goodness they are 3rd graders. You think MMA is going to accepted with open arms by Soccer Mommy Public? How comfortable do you think the public is going to be about kids being MMA kid fighters?

I am wondering if anyone will answer this, why can't kids wait to do MMA until they are adults? Is kids MMA like spinach and put hair on their chests? Will it make men out of them?
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:23 PM   #68
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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They seem to be following a rule set that is even more protective than the state sanctioning board rules tend to be.
Heck, they might as well just wrestle, it's all there, no controversy like MMA. If they are good enough they can go to the Olympics. Or they can get college scholarships.

I have another question, what is the parents goal who put kids into MMA, is it only because the kids "want it?" This is a question I think many parents do and will ask?

I would hate to be the first or any parent for that matter that has to face a judge for putting my kid in MMA. Or be the first or only MMA parent to have my kid seriously injured for life or have to bury. Yes, this goes for other contact and violent sports.

Last edited by Buck : 04-01-2008 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:33 PM   #69
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Are you 100% kid's MMA does? Or are you just assuming that kids are doing exactly what is shown in the UFC?
Not at all sure. I am sure that those techniques are not permitted in the sports mentioned by edtang. Is there a standardized rule set for kid's MMA bouts? If so perhaps someone could provide a link.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:39 PM   #70
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Phil,

So you are saying that MMA would lead kids to commit further acts of violence?

W that psychological state is being instilled into kids by MMA?

Hitting is bad? Where do you draw the line?

Tae Kwon Do is okay? What is the distinction between TKD striking at MMA striking? What delinates it.

I heard almost the same argument when the city built a skateboard park in our neighborhood, the neighbors did not like it because they percieved it would bring in all kinds of bad things and encouraged kids to do drugs etc.

Same was said about rock and roll in the 50s.

Is the argument because we cannot identify with a culture of people that do not wear plan white GIs and do things the same way as suburban America?

Boxing in inner cities has done wonders to keep kids off the streets and give them meaning a purpose.

Just because kids wear dyed hair, mohawks, and grapple and strike around in rash guards and board shorts...meaning they are not like other martial artist, does not necessarily mean they will organize or turn towards committing violence.

I think we have to make sure, again, that we are looking at the arguments against it rationally and logically without emotion and judgement.

I still see alot of this being injected into the thread.

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Old 04-02-2008, 07:57 AM   #71
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
You think MMA is going to accepted with open arms by Soccer Mommy Public?
Well, thank god I don't look to what Soccer Mommy Public (what ever that is) for my opinions about what is right or wrong. I see no reason for that to determine the bounds of this discussion. At least, no one has made a convincing case for it yet.

Quote:
How comfortable do you think the public is going to be about kids being MMA kid fighters?
Again, the public doesn't determine what I think is right. They may determine what is legal, or under what conditions it is allowed, etc. Their comfort level?? Not my issue.

Quote:
I am wondering if anyone will answer this, why can't kids wait to do MMA until they are adults?
I'm sure many have, and many will. Most of the top competitors in MMA either wrestled, boxed, did TMA, or some other contact sport in their youth. But just like there are jr. wrestling leagues through out the country, there may be jr. MMA leagues. Unless there is a convincing difference between the two, I can't see a logical reason not to have both for the families that choose to participate. Someone brought up a fireman's carry move earlier...I'd been doing that and having it done to me for years as a kid in wrestling. A similar waza exists in judo, and most forms of jujutsu. Kids have been doing on their own in school yard fights for centuries.

Quote:
Is kids MMA like spinach and put hair on their chests?
Now you are just being silly.

Quote:
Will it make men out of them?
Are you sure you don't post on e-budo?

Best,
Ron (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39469)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:14 AM   #72
dragonteeth
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Phillip, I hate to tell you, but a large number of "soccer mommies" think that we're all violent sociopaths, no matter what martial art we do. The question I have for you is this - are you making the decision about whether kids should or should not do MMA based on actual knowledge of what they are doing, or on the basis of public opinion?

Here are a couple of hypothetical answers to your question about why start MMA as a kid. I'm sure that the answers will be different for every family that has made the decision.

1) "My kid tried tae kwon do first, but got really bored after a year or so. He's really interested in trying this, so we are giving it a trial run."

2) "My son really likes to play video games, and it's hard to get him to exercise. This is the only thing we could talk him into trying."

3) "My child gets bullied a lot in school. We tried another martial art but we like this one because it teaches him to maintain mental control during a fight and to think on his feet."

4) "There have been several teenaged girls raped in our community this year. The karate school in town really doesn't teach the girls what to do when someone has them on their backs, but this one does."

5) "There are only three martial arts schools in our rural town. The aikido school doesn't teach kids, and the tae kwon do school is very commercialized. We like this instructor and we feel safe allowing our son to train here. He won't be competing until we feel he's ready."

(note to the TKD and karate folks - just had to put something there, not intentionally picking on you...)

Moving on to the wrestling question.... Many localities outside of the Midwest do not have youth league wrestling that feeds into the high school wrestling programs. Most small cities and towns don't have judo or jujitsu schools either. MMA could be a good way to give a child with a serious talent for grappling an early start, giving them a leg up on the competition later on which could lead to championships and scholarships. Alternatively, the youngster could be a girl with an interest in grappling. Many localities still bar females from wrestling. Finally, 22 years after a group of us asked to join the wrestling team in high school, my alma mater has its first female wrestler. Or again a kid could have an interest in grappling, have no judo/jujitsu resources, and either attend a private school with no wrestling option or be home schooled. Last, the kid could have an interest in wrestling, but the parents are concerned he might develop an eating disorder (sounds like a stretch, but I know two families that barred their kids from high school wrestling for that very reason).

I could go on and on, but my real point is two-fold. First, things are right or wrong on their own merits, not because the opinion of an uneducated public deems it so. If you really want to know whether this is a good or bad thing, go there and see for yourself before you judge. Don't let the garbage that the inflammatory press spouts out be your only source of information. Second, allowing a child to participate in a sport after investigating with due diligence the safety measures, the instructors, and the activity itself does not constitute child abuse just because other people don't agree that it should be a childhood activity. If that were true, the NRA would have ended its youth shooting programs long ago. Parents have the right and the ability to choose what is best for their children in their unique set of circumstances. If you don't feel parents should have the right to choose whether their child participates in MMA and you live in Missouri (where this is taking place), then feel free to gather your relevant statistical research and present it to your legislator.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:26 PM   #73
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Let’s step outside our own personal worlds. I don't want to be argumentative it serves no purpose. You may be for MMA for kids, but society as a whole isn't. That doesn't mean society will not warm up to it someday. If they do they will change it to fit what society wants. There are more parents against MMA and MMA for kids then there are for it. Those parents for it are a minority demographic group.

MMA fights at first got a blockade of rejection and to be accepted changed to be more accepted. Even though changes where made MMA became more popular, but the general population still isn't crazy about it. How then are the going to be open to MMA kid fighters, or MMA when their kids can take more established actives with a whole different purpose. What is the purpose behind MMA, we know what it is. Will that purpose change for kids MMA. No, it will not.

I am still waiting for my question to be answered of why can't kids wait to do MMA?

I will answer that question, there is no reason why kids can't wait. And so they should. The reason they don't wait is because of the parents, for the parents' reason.

Then how long will it before the government gets involve in regulation, or is that something the government wants to do. The government due to public pressure may have no choice because of all the adults who are not the best. Adults not interested in the welfare of the kids, like they should. The government then needs to step in and regulate.

The public will never fully accept it. Unless they change the purpose, the goal, increased safety, and the point of kids MMA. Then if you do all that you end up with wrestling. Take in consideration how the public feels about protecting kids. In some states you can’t spank your kid that is considered abuse. Countless schools don’t allow bullying of any type. What school doesn’t take fights as a serious offence, and depending on the law and state, and age of the kids, can face charges. We don’t live in “Happy Days” where the Fonz is cool. This isn’t “Back To The Future” with Biff the bully.

Society is much more sensitive to violence to kids and kids committing violence. Can society live without MMA for kids, yes it can. Can parents live without their kids being in MMA, yes they can. Can kids live without being in MMA, yes they can. Do we need to encourage kids to beat on each other, do we need to exploit them in a model of sport that is for adults. Yes, they can. What good mother can stand to watch her kid intentionally in engage in a MMA match where the point is to beat up or get beat up. We spend an enormous about of time, effort and worry in protecting our kids, as parents-good ones. Why be hypocritical by placing them in harms way, even though we put limited safeguard on MMA for kids. We can’t put total safeguards in MMA if you did that there wouldn’t be any point?

You really have to step out side of your box and look at how society sees it. Our opinions here don't carry much weight. Many see it as a child cockfight, no matter how much padding is worn.


Dudes, I am winded. That was way too long. I got to cut back.

Last edited by Buck : 04-02-2008 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:26 PM   #74
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

So MMA equates to violence.

Good mothers would not let their kids participate in MMA.

Kids can wait to particpate in MMA.

Government should decide what is acceptable.

It is harmful to kids.

Kids need to be protected from MMA.

Just want to make sure I understand your positions on this topic.

I would still like you to delineate the where you draw the line between what is acceptable martial arts for kids and which one are not.

All arts involving any striking at all? that is with fist or weapons? That would eliminate TKD, Karate, Fencing, and many others.

Which ones are acceptable. Where do we say this is violence and this is not?

We know how to define pornography I guess...so where do we delineate between acceptable violence and non-acceptable violence?

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Old 04-02-2008, 09:16 PM   #75
RonRagusa
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Where do we say this is violence and this is not?
When one child mounts another and proceeds to, as they say, ground and pound, raining down hammer fists and elbows on the downed kid's face & head I'd say that qualifies as violence.
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