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Old 03-29-2008, 10:11 AM   #26
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Kevin after reading what you said it seems I made a mistake with helmet laws. Maybe wearing seat belts and car/booster seats for kids, and adults would have been better. A safety measure brought about by all the car accidents with deaths and injuries when not using them.

The way you said you treat your child, with the great attention you pay to their safety is because you are trained. But that isn't the norm. What about the parents that don't have a martial arts back ground. The parents who are recklessly and irresponsible parents what their kid to be like the parents favorite UFC fighters live vicariously through. Parents who think it is cool to watch their kid beat the snott out of another 6 year old kid. Don't we have enough of that in other sports?

What is wrong with having kids wait until they are adults to do MMA, and sports you already pointed too?

We have kids wait to do all sorts of things. Let me list a few, drive, to buy booze, to buy adult materials, to shoot own a gun, to get married, to work, etc. all for good reason. Why? Well it is to protect them and to protect them from bad parents. Here is an example of some types, the irresponsible, careless, ignorant knuckle-headed, exploitive, reckless, abusive, idiotic.

It is a parents drive and not the kids drive to do MMA.
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:41 PM   #27
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Phil wrote:

Quote:
What is wrong with having kids wait until they are adults to do MMA, and sports you already pointed too?
Nothing as long as we apply the "rules" for the right reasons and that criteria applies to all sports for the same reasons.

AND the reasons are based on sound, founded, and logical basis.

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Old 03-29-2008, 06:00 PM   #28
statisticool
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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At least they are being presented with an honest look at what they are doing.
The modern MMA fad started out with UFC and their 'no rules' campaign, as well as Rorian's belief that it was 'as close as you could get to a street fight' and that it would 'finally determine which martial art is best'.
(not exact quotes)

None of those things are honest to begin with.

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Old 03-29-2008, 06:03 PM   #29
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
The way you said you treat your child, with the great attention you pay to their safety is because you are trained. But that isn't the norm. What about the parents that don't have a martial arts back ground. The parents who are recklessly and irresponsible parents what their kid to be like the parents favorite UFC fighters live vicariously through. Parents who think it is cool to watch their kid beat the snott out of another 6 year old kid. Don't we have enough of that in other sports?
Speaking of other sports, weren't there a rash of stories about parents behaving badly during youth soccer games?

And how many parents out there *are* living vicariously through their children's accomplishments - whether on the football field, on the wrestling mat, in the ring, and so on?

And Kevin...absolutely, we should apply the same standards across the board. I also have reservations about pee wee football and wrestling for similar reasons.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-29-2008, 07:02 PM   #30
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Justin,

Your missing the point, it is a relative position to other martial arts in general.

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Old 03-30-2008, 05:30 AM   #31
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

When I was in high school, it was the parents who got into fights during inter-school basketball games - their kids just played basketball.

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Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
Speaking of other sports, weren't there a rash of stories about parents behaving badly during youth soccer games?

And how many parents out there *are* living vicariously through their children's accomplishments - whether on the football field, on the wrestling mat, in the ring, and so on?

And Kevin...absolutely, we should apply the same standards across the board. I also have reservations about pee wee football and wrestling for similar reasons.

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Old 03-30-2008, 07:57 AM   #32
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Justin,

Your missing the point, it is a relative position to other martial arts in general.
I'm not sure if you've read the MMA magazines Kevon, or have familiarity with any MMA related programming, and have compared them to other martial arts. Just take 5 minutes to see how they market, advertise, etc. It is primarily aggression, testosterone, T&A, etc. Contrast that with say a magazine on aikido.

Night and day.

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:26 AM   #33
Mark Uttech
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Onegaishimasu. Sigh. Even Systema is beginning a children's program. This is nothing but the "market mentality". They may point to this or that benefit, but entertainment and dollars drive the idea.

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 03-30-2008, 09:26 AM   #34
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

No, Justin... I know absolutely nothing about MMA.

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Old 03-30-2008, 09:51 AM   #35
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I am betting that systema for kids looks alot like judo for kids, aikido for kids, or gymnastics for kids.

Sure kids programs bring in $$ to the dojo, but I think the kids get something out of it as well. Most kids programs concentrate on gross motor skills, balance, and coordination.

Not so much the development of fine motor skills and internal skills.

The main thing I think is to get kids out of the house and interacting with other kids doing something that is using the body and mind at the same time.

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Old 03-30-2008, 11:10 AM   #36
Keith Larman
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

As a parent, a children's aikido instructor and with a wife in the medical field... It is a bit of a minefield.

First of all, I've seen and heard of some horrific injuries kids have suffered doing all sorts of things. Everything from organized sports (football, baseball, basketball) to "pseudo-martial arts" like school wrestling to just the things kids do because they're kids ("let's play tackle football on the street!" -- Hey, I thought it was a great idea at 14 -- the concussion I ended up with later was a bit of an eye-opener (or closer -- ha!)).

Anyway... Our kids program is about teaching kids to move mostly. Lots of things like elbow drops, gentle versions of shihonage and kotegaeshi emphasizing kuzushi rather than "locking up" their joints, etc. Most of the time we want the kids to get their hands up, protect themselves, get off the line, and get safe. But the larger picture is teaching them body awareness, how to move, balance, confidence, interacting in a group with other kids, recognition of authority and structure, keeping calm, not resorting to violence first,... All things most any program for kids will work on regardless of what it is.

But.. Having seen kids that have stayed over the years mature in extremely talented Aikido practitioners I also recognize the deeper value of what they're doing. As they get older, start hitting that adult age and size, then the intensity can go up. And they can quickly ratchet it up themselves because they're already got a core set of ability long fine-tuned. They are much better at the taking away balance, moving, sliding, and slipping through. Because they've had it so firmly ingrained into their bodies that it is easy for them. And their aikido as adults benefits from it greatly.

All that said, sure, we don't do yonkyo's with 7-year-old. But I might introduce it once or twice in a year with my 15 and 16 year olds. I figure it's going to take them a few years to figure the bloody thing out anyway. I let them feel it a few times then let them try to apply it to me. I take the brunt of the punishment, especially when they power through it because they can't seem to find it. Then they do. Loverly...

With respect to other arts, well, I can't really say much. But I can easily see any children's program instilling exactly the wrong ideas, practices and "tone" with their programs. I can easily see someone getting way too aggressive with aikido training in kids doing damage. And I have known people with kids in other arts (other friends of mine) including jujutsu arts with well adjusted kids having a wonderful time. I can only speak as a guy who remembers being a kid -- grappling is fun! Judo as a kid was a blast! So was soccer, football, baseball, ... And I've got a bum knee due to soccer as a kid. But I wouldn't change a thing if I could do it over again myself.

Anyway, I guess my point is that it isn't so much the art, sport or activity that is the issue. It is how it is taught. And how cognizant participants are to safety and the "larger" picture of the development of kids. So I wouldn't use something like this to condemn the art or even the idea of a kid's MMA program. I could see that being just as useful, enriching and worthy as most any other kids program out there. It's all about how it is taught and presented.

Enough rambling for me...

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Old 03-30-2008, 11:18 AM   #37
Keith Larman
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I should also say that we have basic kids classes where the kids start. As they get better (which doesn't always equate with age or time) they may find themselves invited to an advanceds kids class. And they can also start participating in some of the adult classes on a limited basis. So we have a sort of "path" for working with kids that tries to adjust the training accordingly to their age, ability, and particular needs. That includes awareness of their developmental level physically and emotionally. So they're not tossed into the "octogon of jiu waza death" right away. We give them some time first before we do that...

And I should also mention that while I almost destroyed one knee playing soccer as a kid, I screwed up the other one pretty badly playing tennis. As a kid.

Aikido doesn't help things nowadays at the ripe age of 44 -- I certainly feel those old injuries and I've certainly done a lot to aggravate them. But no one would ever question tennis lessons. Or Soccer games.

Context, context, context...

And also... most kids don't stay all that long. They discover ballet, or football, or tae kwon do, BJJ, or chess club, or flower arranging, or water polo, or cricket ("really, where do they have a league playing that in Southern California?"), etc. Kids flutter from one thing to another. A few hang around longer. Some a long, long time. And training needs to be done in accordance with that long term view. There is no rush with a kid as long as you can keep them challenged and interested. And as they develop and can take more, well, you can give them more.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 03-30-2008 at 11:19 AM. Reason: spelnig

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Old 03-30-2008, 01:34 PM   #38
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if you've read the MMA magazines Kevon, or have familiarity with any MMA related programming, and have compared them to other martial arts. Just take 5 minutes to see how they market, advertise, etc. It is primarily aggression, testosterone, T&A, etc. Contrast that with say a magazine on aikido.

Night and day.
You do realize that the marketing of the events and brands are not the same as the tone of the actual training or the demeanors of many of the athletes, right?
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:30 PM   #39
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
You do realize that the marketing of the events and brands are not the same as the tone of the actual training or the demeanors of many of the athletes, right?
From what I understand it is part and parcel now. Especially, with the popularity of the UFC and amateur adult events as models for the kid events. I wouldn't be surprised if they served beer to the parents, and everything else to emulate the adult venue. They already have the cage.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:20 PM   #40
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
You do realize that the marketing of the events and brands are not the same as the tone of the actual training or the demeanors of many of the athletes, right?
Not the same, not causation, but an awful high correlation in MMA's case for sure.

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Old 03-31-2008, 05:58 AM   #41
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

....and your correlation is based on what facts and assumptions?

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Old 03-31-2008, 05:58 AM   #42
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
I'm also concerned about the "hard training" MMA and "ultimate fighting" entails. Most "striking arts" like Tae Kwon Do don't utilize joint locks. If I recall correctly, Judo doesn't use many joint locks either, right? And don't most (if not all) Aikido dojo have a *minimum* age for children to start training? Not only that, aren't they usually just taught the *basics*, and none of the "harsher" joint locks? I've also heard that joint locks can be harmful to a growing child's body.
My jujutsu instructor also teaches juniors and to quote him from another board: locks taught to under 18's should be to position only, not to pain. In other words, move the hand / elbow / shoulder etc to the correct position to apply the lock, which is generally the limit of natural movement, but not to apply the necessary pressure to take it beyond that point and cause pain.
And that would only be in an embu context, not randori. Do they have submission locks in that junior MMA?
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:12 AM   #43
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

NAGA Rules.

http://www.nagafighter.com/naga_rules.asp

IFBJJ:

http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

two common set of rules. I prefer BJJ rules for kids as they are more about positional dominance, which is more important anyway.

Don't know where you find striking rules since this is new...but the grapplling rules would probably follow NAGA somewhat.

Keep in mind that in all cases it is kids against kids in the same weight classes.

Most of the safety comes from the referree supervision. A good referee knows what to watch for and will stop things when they become dangerous. The key is "good" referee.

Most venues know that if they don't have good refs then they will not last long because people will stop coming.

Cavet Emptor.

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Old 03-31-2008, 09:55 AM   #44
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
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Not the same, not causation, but an awful high correlation in MMA's case for sure.
Have you trained at ALL at a dojo/gym/academy that offers MMA training, or alongside fighters?
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:58 AM   #45
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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From what I understand it is part and parcel now. Especially, with the popularity of the UFC and amateur adult events as models for the kid events. I wouldn't be surprised if they served beer to the parents, and everything else to emulate the adult venue. They already have the cage.
You do realize that if you are going to have a MMA match, a cage is much, much safer than a ring, right?

And, honestly, I can't believe the wildly ignorant and unfounded assumptions that some people are spouting out here on the board. If it's just a gym or dojo, there's no possible way they'd be serving alcohol to parents. You've got to be kidding me if you honestly believe that (even just for legal reasons).
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:00 AM   #46
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Alastair Rae wrote: View Post
My jujutsu instructor also teaches juniors and to quote him from another board: locks taught to under 18's should be to position only, not to pain. In other words, move the hand / elbow / shoulder etc to the correct position to apply the lock, which is generally the limit of natural movement, but not to apply the necessary pressure to take it beyond that point and cause pain.
And that would only be in an embu context, not randori. Do they have submission locks in that junior MMA?
That's not just juniors. That's how I've being trained right now in BJJ. my teacher is stressing to take it easy with torquing on other's joints, because we're all friends and we're training for mutual benefit; learning about proper positioning is much more important that actually applying the lock.
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:27 PM   #47
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I'm not worried about joint locks and children. I've watched many kids bjj matches and not seen nearly as many injuries as kids judo (which does not allow joint locks). I am more worried about striking. I personally do not think kids should be in striking arts until their teens. Grappling is something kids do naturally for fun, striking is something they do in anger. Most kids can not disassociate anger from strking.

- Don
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:31 PM   #48
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Ed, let me say that you know and I know that kids MMA tournaments are wrong as they are being handled. I would hate to see some drunk Yahoo parent climbing into the cage.

I understand your concern, I am not saying MMA isn't good. I am saying it is part of the adult world way too intense in many ways for kids. Why should that adult world include kids?

What are the real benefits for kids to fight. I don’t see short moments of victory, injury both mentally and physically as any benefit. There are no college scholarships. They can get self-esteem, discipline, and all of those other things in a host of activities geared to kids to maximize those benefits. Now think about the benefits of having kids do MMA and put it up against the benefits all the adults involved will get. It is pretty unfair to the kids.

MMA for kids is bad for the kids, just like underage drinking and other adult activities are bad for kids. Kids are not mini-mes, they are developing young humans who need and dependent on adult parents. To put them in a cage that is just like the adult fighters, or like fighting cocks says oodles on how this MMA kid thing is being handled. It is adult exploitation of kids. Cock fighters wait until their bird is mature enough to fight. You don’t see them putting in hatchlings. Kids emulate adults, is it really beneficial to kids to have to emulate a MMA fight?

My kid took chess. At a chess tournament you might think doesn't have the same intensity of parents found at popular sport games. Wrong. Parents are just as intense, and most tournaments don't allow the parents to watch the play, for that reason. I have seen allot of parent exploit their kids. The difference is the kids are playing chess and not trying to physically beat each other to submission. No kid in chess walks away physically injured. No swollen lips, no bruises, no blood. No tears from painful injuries.
That is the only thing that makes chess a better activity.

We are not Sparta. That is what I am saying. Let them be kids, they will be adults soon enough.

Don makes a good point about striking too. I am sure there is a whole bunch of other things like that, that haven't yet been brought up.

Last edited by Buck : 03-31-2008 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:34 PM   #49
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I will ask again, how is this different than kid's wrestling, kid's karate, or kid's judo? Or are you equally bothered by that?
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:02 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Edward Tang wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Not the same, not causation, but an awful high correlation in MMA's case for sure.
Have you trained at ALL at a dojo/gym/academy that offers MMA training, or alongside fighters?
You might ask him the same question about his experience in aikido as well. (I didn't because I already know the answer).

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