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Old 04-18-2008, 09:52 AM   #1
tuturuhan
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Man and Woman, Push Hands

Push Hands

Ki, Qi, Prana, is the life force that higher level practitioners aspire to. However how does one attain it.

push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8fxUT5m40s

Ki, Qi, Prana, is the life force that higher level practitioners aspire to. However how does one attain it.

1. As you watch the video first understand that there is a "give and take". An up and down and in and out...a male and a female.

2. Notice that their is an attack of strikes and an absorbing of those strikes. Likewise, their is a recycling of attacking energy and a re-shooting back of said energy.

3. The main idea is to use 2 ounces to move 2 thousand pounds. As such, there is no "muscling". Instead, we attempt to "take in" and cultivate Ki in order to emit it for the purpose of "death and destruction...birth and creativity

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Kalijin

1. As you watch the video first understand that there is a "give and take". An up and down and in and out...a male and a female.

2. Notice that their is an attack of strikes and an absorbing of those strikes. Likewise, their is a recycling of attacking energy and a re-shooting back of said energy.

3. The main idea is to use 2 ounces to move 2 thousand pounds. As such, there is no "muscling". Instead, we attempt to "take in" and cultivate Ki in order to emit it for the purpose of "death and destruction...birth and creativity

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Kalijin

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:53 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
1. As you watch the video first understand that there is a "give and take". An up and down and in and out...a male and a female.
Shouldn't there also be "sticking", as in "no resistance, no letting go"?
Quote:
3. The main idea is to use 2 ounces to move 2 thousand pounds.
Actually, I think the quote is more like "use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds". It's actually a famous Taiji quotation, but the same quotation is used in many, many other Chinese martial arts, too. At one time it was one of the saying used to denote a great skill level.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:31 PM   #3
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Shouldn't there also be "sticking", as in "no resistance, no letting go"? Actually, I think the quote is more like "use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds". It's actually a famous Taiji quotation, but the same quotation is used in many, many other Chinese martial arts, too. At one time it was one of the saying used to denote a great skill level.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

This was a simple push hands. Look at my other tapes for the sticking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXEUQSKDKkE

In this particular tape you see "sticking" not just with the hands and arms, but with legs, hips and back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRJTMt1UjdA

In this tape you see the sticking with a knife and open hand. I also show the contrast to the external style/percussive where I am losing contact.

Mike of course, I have only been studying tai chi chuan for a little more than 30 years. How about you?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:44 PM   #4
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
This was a simple push hands. Look at my other tapes for the sticking:
Those appear to be tapes of Kali or one of the Malay/Indonesian/Philippine offshoots of southern Shaolin (which of course have varying emphases on 'sticking' in their own way). I was referring to the breaks in the push-hands video you showed, since you were apparently using the tape as an expositive example.
Quote:
Mike of course, I have only been studying tai chi chuan for a little more than 30 years. How about you?
Oh, I am just a simple beginner, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the questions. I was just commenting on the things you publicly posted.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:59 PM   #5
G DiPierro
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Mike of course, I have only been studying tai chi chuan for a little more than 30 years. How about you?
And how long has your student in that tape been studying? A year? I really don't see the point of posting videos that show how well you can dominate your beginner-level students.
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:01 PM   #6
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Those appear to be tapes of Kali or one of the Malay/Indonesian/Philippine offshoots of southern Shaolin (which of course have varying emphases on 'sticking' in their own way). I was referring to the breaks in the push-hands video you showed, since you were apparently using the tape as an expositive example. Oh, I am just a simple beginner, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the questions. I was just commenting on the things you publicly posted.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

Layers within layers. You can't see the tai chi chuan. You are only looking at the outside, my name, my ethnicity and the stick. You see Pilipino and make assumptions. You don't believe that I have studied chinese martial arts for over 35 years.

You aren't looking for the connection, "how the sticking is applied to the self defense technique.

What if I told you I was chinese? Would that change your prejudice? I put these tapes up to challenge your beliefs, to challenge the utility of your method. If you can point out the falsity of the technique, I will value your comments.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:15 PM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

[quote=Joseph Arriola;203984]You aren't looking for the connection, "how the sticking is applied to the self defense technique. [quote] Actually, it is simpler than that, Joseph. I was going by the fact that you physically break connection with your student in the videoclip. As I was taught, this is not what push-hands invovles.
Quote:
What if I told you I was chinese? Would that change your prejudice? I put these tapes up to challenge your beliefs, to challenge the utility of your method. If you can point out the falsity of the technique, I will value your comments.
Well, don't get me wrong. I neither stater nor implied any "prejudice" about things Phillipino. I was just pointing out that the bridging and trapping, etc., in the Malay/Indonesian/Philippino varieties of Kali (and other terms for other variations) derive from the southern Shaolin arts like Hakka, Bai He, Wing Chun precursors, and so on. In other words, I asked a question about Taiji and your response was using demonstrations of Kali... and they are not the same arts. I.e., I was looking for a response specifically about Taiji, since that was what you were posting about.

In terms of "pointing out the falsity of technique", it's your thread... I'm waiting to see what your point is and see what you have to say about push-hands.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:18 PM   #8
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

[quote=Mike Sigman;203985][quote=Joseph Arriola;203984]You aren't looking for the connection, "how the sticking is applied to the self defense technique.
Quote:
Actually, it is simpler than that, Joseph. I was going by the fact that you physically break connection with your student in the videoclip. As I was taught, this is not what push-hands invovles. Well, don't get me wrong. I neither stater nor implied any "prejudice" about things Phillipino. I was just pointing out that the bridging and trapping, etc., in the Malay/Indonesian/Philippino varieties of Kali (and other terms for other variations) derive from the southern Shaolin arts like Hakka, Bai He, Wing Chun precursors, and so on. In other words, I asked a question about Taiji and your response was using demonstrations of Kali... and they are not the same arts. I.e., I was looking for a response specifically about Taiji, since that was what you were posting about.

In terms of "pointing out the falsity of technique", it's your thread... I'm waiting to see what your point is and see what you have to say about push-hands.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Well, lets compare your videos. I've watched them too.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:34 PM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Well, lets compare your videos. I've watched them too.
That doesn't seem to answer the observation I made, though, about "sticking" or the one about "four ounces deflects a thousand pounds". I'm not that interested in getting into a lengthy back and forth... you are the one who posted the video for comments and I tried to make some for you. Obviously we should have simply said, "Very nice". Very nice, Joseph.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:02 PM   #10
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That doesn't seem to answer the observation I made, though, about "sticking" or the one about "four ounces deflects a thousand pounds". I'm not that interested in getting into a lengthy back and forth... you are the one who posted the video for comments and I tried to make some for you. Obviously we should have simply said, "Very nice". Very nice, Joseph.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

Well, thank you...that's better.

There are a lot of guys out there who criticize but, don't have skills to back their criticisms. They simply criticize.

You asked me about "sticking" and I showed you an additional video on the application of "sticking". Then, you went back to the original tape and stated their was no sticking.

There was sticking and their was a releasing of the sticking. I can only state what I am demonstrating. Of course you can make your opinion. But, it gets tiring hearing criticism from people who don't first explain their credentials.

There was a time, when "rank, experience and age" meant something. I grew up in an asian culture where "young people" looked up to and admired the accomplished. They aspired to be like them with time and practice. Today, we have 20 something masters, with no experience or success who sling their criticisms while hiding behind their screen names.

Now, I'm assuming you and I are both in our 50's. I am assuming, you and I have been studying at least 40 years. I have been in practice for nearly 45 years. So, we must have some common ground. Since, I put up some videos on sticking...maybe you too can put up some of your videos on the "continuous sticking" you are talking about.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:21 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
There are a lot of guys out there who criticize but, don't have skills to back their criticisms. They simply criticize.
I see it differently, Joseph. Someone may not have the experience or "ranks" that I have, but if they bring up a valid point, I will discuss it as factually as I can. Who knows... as the logic unfolds maybe I will have some new insights.
Quote:
You asked me about "sticking" and I showed you an additional video on the application of "sticking". Then, you went back to the original tape and stated their was no sticking.

There was sticking and their was a releasing of the sticking.
But you were talking about push hands and I was simply pointing out that the sticking was not maintained. And of course if the sticking is broken, the jin is broken, so the push-hands is not complete. At least, that's the way I have learned it from my teachers. Is continuous sticking not logical to you? If so, why not?
Quote:
I can only state what I am demonstrating. Of course you can make your opinion. But, it gets tiring hearing criticism from people who don't first explain their credentials.

There was a time, when "rank, experience and age" meant something. I grew up in an asian culture where "young people" looked up to and admired the accomplished. They aspired to be like them with time and practice. Today, we have 20 something masters, with no experience or success who sling their criticisms while hiding behind their screen names.
Yet I know a number of Asian "masters" who are not really masters, Joseph. Are you saying that "rank, experience and age" are important or are the true facts important? This is why I avoid the discussions about rank, age, and so on. I simply have never been convinced that they tell us very much. Most people in the martial arts tend to give the best resume' that they can, in my experience. Regardless of my age or experience or credentials, I would fully expect even a beginner to ask me why the sticking was not continuous in a push hands tape, particularly if I posted it for comments. But perhaps we have different outlooks. Who knows?
Quote:
Now, I'm assuming you and I are both in our 50's. I am assuming, you and I have been studying at least 40 years. I have been in practice for nearly 45 years. So, we must have some common ground. Since, I put up some videos on sticking...maybe you too can put up some of your videos on the "continuous sticking" you are talking about.
I don't have any videos of me pushing hands, Joseph. I think I put out a set of videos in the early 1990's that had some push hands on it, but I assure you that never releasing would have been common in all of the pattern push hands that I ever did. And all matters of peng jin, lu jin, ji jin, an jin, sticking, central-equilibrium, etc., etc., are tied to one another since they are all aspects of qi/ki, so that "sticking" is just one of the small links in a complete chain. But please, don't let me interrupt. It is your thread and obviously you have something important to say.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:13 PM   #12
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

[quote=Mike Sigman;203990]I see it differently, Joseph. "Someone may not have the experience or "ranks" that I have, but if they bring up a valid point, I will discuss it as factually as I can. Who knows... as the logic unfolds maybe I will have some new insights."

Mike,
I learn every day from my students. I watch and learn from the evolution of the movement. The student unknowingly "mutates" and suddenly their is an insight that leads to a technique that leads to a addition to a concept, a challenge to a venerated concept or perhaps, an altogether new concept which must then be tested and repeated.

However, I quickly challenge the failure of a young student to "think out his responses". I'm quite fortunate. 99% of my students have college degrees and over 35% have advanced degrees. I am also lucky and unlucky in attacking the special forces types.

"Quote: But you were talking about push hands and I was simply pointing out that the sticking was not maintained. And of course if the sticking is broken, the jin is broken, so the push-hands is not complete. At least, that's the way I have learned it from my teachers. Is continuous sticking not logical to you? If so, why not?"

Well, if you watch closely...in this version of push hands and their are many...the idea is not simply to create the unbroken continuous connected flow. You must learn to break the flow to create the strike, pressure pt, joint manipulation and grapple. The better you get the more the "brokeness" is subtle and unseen. In this particular tape their were many palm strikes that were absorbed my the woman student. Look closely and you will see me striking and absorbing and her simply absorbing.

"Quote: Yet I know a number of Asian "masters" who are not really masters, Joseph."

I agree. Most are masters because a crowd decides they are masters. So how do we know who the true masters are? You develop and eye for "result". It is not enough to talk, or to be aware of academics or definitions. The master must be willing to touch whoever walks into his doors...whether physical, intellectual or spiritual or over the internet.

"Quote: Are you saying that "rank, experience and age" are important or are the true facts important? This is why I avoid the discussions about rank, age, and so on. I simply have never been convinced that they tell us very much."

Well, I have a BA from U.C. Berkeley and a Juris Doctor, from U.C. Hasting College of the Law. Does it mean I am educated? Perhaps not. But, it does indicate that I went through some sort of rigors to get my CA Bar license.

Did the fact that I studied with some famous teachers make me a great and knowing martial artist. No...if the student doesn't have the capacity...the teacher can't pass his knowledge. Because I can spout theory, history and philosophy also means nothing...yet it contributes to my overall learning of the physical technique. Ah, it always comes down to the utility of physical technique.

"QUOTE: Most people in the martial arts tend to give the best resume' that they can, in my experience. Regardless of my age or experience or credentials, I would fully expect even a beginner to ask me why the sticking was not continuous in a push hands tape, particularly if I posted it for comments."

I think I answered.

"QUOTE: But perhaps we have different outlooks. Who knows? I don't have any videos of me pushing hands, Joseph. I think I put out a set of videos in the early 1990's that had some push hands on it, but I assure you that never releasing would have been common in all of the pattern push hands that I ever did. And all matters of peng jin, lu jin, ji jin, an jin, sticking, central-equilibrium, etc., etc., are tied to one another since they are all aspects of qi/ki, so that "sticking" is just one of the small links in a complete chain.

Well..."your assurances" are a matter of opinion. I respect your opinion. I hope you will grow to respect mine.

"QUOTE: But please, don't let me interrupt. It is your thread and obviously you have something important to say."

Mike,

I welcome your "push" in this thread. I hope you welcome my push back.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Regards,

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:14 PM   #13
G DiPierro
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
The better you get the more the "brokeness" is subtle and unseen. In this particular tape their were many palm strikes that were absorbed my the woman student. Look closely and you will see me striking and absorbing and her simply absorbing.
So the drill is that you can break connection and strike at will while she must just stand there and passively absorb your strikes? Why isn't she hitting you back?
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:15 PM   #14
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But you were talking about push hands and I was simply pointing out that the sticking was not maintained. And of course if the sticking is broken, the jin is broken, so the push-hands is not complete. At least, that's the way I have learned it from my teachers. Is continuous sticking not logical to you? If so, why not?"
Well, if you watch closely...in this version of push hands and their are many...the idea is not simply to create the unbroken continuous connected flow. You must learn to break the flow to create the strike, pressure pt, joint manipulation and grapple. The better you get the more the "brokeness" is subtle and unseen.
It is a new idea to me. The dictum "no resistance, no letting go" has always been the defining criterion, as far as I've ever heard, and that's from every person who has ever taught me, including Chen Xiaowang. You obviously disconnect in your pattern (BTW, trust me that I've seen thousands of individual takes on push-hands patterns... the basic tenets should still apply).
Quote:
Well, I have a BA from U.C. Berkeley and a Juris Doctor, from U.C. Hasting College of the Law. Does it mean I am educated? Perhaps not. But, it does indicate that I went through some sort of rigors to get my CA Bar license.
Then certainly you understand that the name and qualifications for J.D. are regulated by the State of California? The name and qualifications of most (if not all) martial arts teachers (and many other vocational callings) is not regulated. So it is not an apt comparison.
Quote:
Mike wrote:
Quote:
But perhaps we have different outlooks. Who knows? I don't have any videos of me pushing hands, Joseph. I think I put out a set of videos in the early 1990's that had some push hands on it, but I assure you that never releasing would have been common in all of the pattern push hands that I ever did. And all matters of peng jin, lu jin, ji jin, an jin, sticking, central-equilibrium, etc., etc., are tied to one another since they are all aspects of qi/ki, so that "sticking" is just one of the small links in a complete chain.
Well..."your assurances" are a matter of opinion. I respect your opinion. I hope you will grow to respect mine.
Hmmm, it's not quite just "opinion", on my part. I have quoted the relevant dictate from the classical admonitions that apply to all styles of Taiji and your tape clearly shows physical disconnect. Your opinion may be that such a move is allowable, for some reason that you haven't fully justified yet, but my opinion is that proper push-hands practice doesn't allow for it, for the reasons I stated. But it's not worth further debate. You have your opinion, obviously, and I have chosen to stick with the well-known classical dictates.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:32 PM   #15
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Mike,

No...the basic tenants only apply to the basic student. This is why there are levels. The simple to the more complex. The complex back to the simple.

So, a beginner is taught the "simple" basic tenants. He looks up to the teacher that is doing the seemingly complex. He assumes that the person doing the technique is advanced. When he himself gets there he encounters an adept that is seemingly doing something "simple", Because of his prejudices, beliefs and repeating of his teachers' words he assumes he is better than the true adept that has simplied the method. The intermediate is stuck in his box.

If the intermediate (who may in fact have practiced the same way for 40 year} encounters a true master his world will fall apart. If he has the capacity to change his views and beliefs he will see that "what was correct" for the beginner is not "correct or the master". He will see that the master is capable of keeping the rules and breaking them at will.

Perhaps, you can put some of your fighting tapes your application tapes up for view. In this way, we can better compare and contrast.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:22 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Cough...jeez, I would never call *myself* a "master", even when calling someone else "intermediate".

Why not leave it to the "crowds" to make up their own minds?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:27 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
No...the basic tenants only apply to the basic student.
Ah. I see.
Quote:
If the intermediate (who may in fact have practiced the same way for 40 year) encounters a true master his world will fall apart.
Oh, I see. Well, it has been enlightening to learn these things. Thank you for your teaching.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:47 PM   #18
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Mike,

Only the student can teach himself. A teacher just talks and provides a model. I like to learn. So, I prefer to be called a student. You on the other hand I will call teacher.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:18 PM   #19
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Greetings Joseph,

It was a pleasure meeting you and working out with you while I was working on that project in San Francisco. I especially appreciate the private time we had to do a little scrimmage/push hands.

Two dimensional videos just do not do justice to your skills. And if video could pick up your subtlety, it would require a shelf of video to fully grasp how you have fused your study of Baqua, Tai Chi and Traditional kali into an art as unique as yourself. I especially appreciated your examples of precise Dim Mak points executed with instinctive yet regulated internal power.

What I found most enjoyable was one of the specific things you are being critiqued on in this strain. Rules are made to be broken. Martial arts is about strategy and good strategy is deceptive, playing upon an opponent's assumptions and expectations.

I will be back in your area in May and will be around there for a good three months. As before, I will look forward to joining your group as well as the group in Chinatown, Oakland.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:40 PM   #20
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Greetings Chris,

Thank you.

Thank you for hiring some of my people on your project. You are quite the mover and shaker. My guys appreciated the $300 a day that you paid them. I really appreciated what you did for them.

Given the fact that my students were small guys they were in awe of the big big guys you hire for your security services corporation. I look forward to seeing you in May.

Best
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:48 AM   #21
Aikibu
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Dear Mike and Joseph,

There is an excellent article in this months Journal of Asian Martial Arts on how to best post pictures and videos of your techniques for instructional purposes in print and on the web.

I mean no disrespect to either one of you but may I suggest you both pick up a copy and read it. Perhaps you will both find it inspiring.

Sadly in my mind your exchanges reinforce an argument I have had about "internet videos" for some time. Namely it is not so much about the quality of instruction or the vast experiance and depth of understanding both of you have about your respective arts....Nope...It's about how best to present it accurately to both the layman and experianced viewer so it transmits in the best possible light what you're trying to teach

Most You Tube Posters have no professional media experiance and most Martial Arts instructors do not grasp the huge differances between teaching a live class and filming one. I would bet the house if anyone actually took the time and hired a professional to script a class and film it that all the frustration folks felt about "not getting it" would disappear.

All of us would greatly benefit because lets face it... There are not that many instructors of your quality around, and I feel the time is now to start thinking about how your going to preserve and pass on what the both of you have learned.

Shoji Nishio Shihan comes to mind. I have 35+ years of experiance myself and that man's "prana" was something to behold. Sadly he shied away from documenting his teaching because our Aikido is always changing and he felt that all anyone would get is a snapshot of what he expressed at that particular moment in time. The few instructional DVD's and books that exist do not really do him justice....

I hope you two choose to do it differently.

Respectfully,

WIlliam Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-19-2008 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:08 AM   #22
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

William,

You are absolutely correct. I'm still trying to grasp. That seven year inside me has and will probably always take me to perilous places...

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:53 AM   #23
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I would bet the house if anyone actually took the time and hired a professional to script a class and film it that all the frustration folks felt about "not getting it" would disappear.
There are some pretty explicative videos of Aikido out there. Let's take Tohei's for example. He talks about ki and he shows some basic methods and "tests" using ki. But no one gets it. Why? Because the jin/kokyu forces (which are technically part of "ki") cannot be seen; in fact they are sometimes called "the concealed strength". If you've been doing them for a while, you can spot whether someone else knows how to use them (often by what they do *wrong* that would be impossible if they really knew how to use jin/kokyu forces). But how many people have been able to "get it" from Tohei's videos? Darn few and even the ones that do get it seem to have just gotten some basic-level skills. I.e., in relation to teaching jin/kokyu skills, videos don't work very well. Still pictures are even worse.

The next thing I would say is that if you don't know an art very well, it's difficult to know who is good and who is razzle-dazzling you. So please don't assume that I know anything. I don't. I'm an amateur. My claim to fame is that I know it and I often get into trouble asking "famous teachers" how it is that I'm an amateur and they're a "famous teacher" but they don't know something very basic. I.e., I'm interested in real knowledge and forward progress and I have little time for self-promoters unless they're good at what they say they are.

Reminds me of a guy in Chicago (although this is a very common scenario across the US) who learned some White Crane on Taiwan. Strong guy, good fighter, knows how to condition his hands and break coconuts and all that sort of thing. But he understands that the money is better in "Tai Chi" so he picked up a Tai Chi form and started marketting his White Crane stuff as "Tai Chi". The average American can't spot the difference and all they know is that this Chinese guy is stronger than they are and can do some impressive stuff, so they think his "Tai Chi" is good. They simply don't know what to look for. Knowing what to look for has a lot to do with any pictures/videos.
Quote:
I hope you two choose to do it differently.
Ermmmm.... I'm not doing any videos for this topic. Push hands isn't so simple that I would try to explain it via video on a Taiji forum, much less an Aikido forum.

The solo form in Taiji has to do with learning how to move with jin/kokyu power and using the qi/ki of the body at the same time. To an experienced eye, it is pretty obvious who can really do that and who is just doing an external version.

After someone learns to move with jin/qi (not before), they start the push-hands patterns from simple to complex in order to learn how to use jin/qi with a partner. Using jin/kokyu/ki with a partner is what Aikido techniques are about, too... supposedly. What would be better for this sort of forum would be some videos showing how the ki/kokyu skills are maintained through an Aikido technique. There are already some like that ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkVy569CAnI ), but the explication is not clear unless you already know how to do it.

Perhaps someone should take a few basic techniques of Aikido and film with careful explanation how to slowly do those basic techniques with ki/kokyu all the way through. That wouldn't be a bad idea, BTW. Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should start a thread on it. I'll start a thread on that idea on the QiJin forum and see if the Aikido guys can suggest a filmable syllabus that. I'll be glad to serve as a ki/kokyu advisor if someone ever wants to put together something like that, but my Aikido isn't sufficient anymore to contribute mort than that.

Good idea, William.

Best.

Mike
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:20 AM   #24
tuturuhan
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Mike,

Its not what you see. It's what you don't see. I wouldn't worry about the beginner's eye. I'd worry about the intermediate's eye.

Certainly, I would like to see your version of push hands. I would like to see any of your applications in martial arts. Perhaps, some old sparring footage. I have only seen your "body alignment" tapes. I would value the comparison and contrast.

Connectedness and sensitivity is a concept that is quite hard to apply in physicality. It's easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy.

Here is another video on weapons push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2o8M4HvcLY

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:41 AM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Man and Woman, Push Hands

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Mike,

Its not what you see. It's what you don't see. I wouldn't worry about the beginner's eye. I'd worry about the intermediate's eye.

Certainly, I would like to see your version of push hands. I would like to see any of your applications in martial arts. Perhaps, some old sparring footage. I have only seen your "body alignment" tapes. I would value the comparison and contrast.

Connectedness and sensitivity is a concept that is quite hard to apply in physicality. It's easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy.

Here is another video on weapons push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2o8M4HvcLY

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Joseph, I think various actual experts visit San Francisco occasionally. Chen Zheng Lei, Chen Xiaowang, and others. I'd suggest that you might enjoy comparing notes and explaining your views of doing things. It would be interesting to hear later why your way of doing things and moving and push-hands is so different from theirs. After you've done something like that, I'm sure all of us beginners would be interested in hearing, from both sides, what the outcome was.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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