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Old 04-18-2008, 09:23 PM   #126
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
I've already discussed this at length in this thread. MMA is a sport. However it is possible to take the lessons of that sport and apply it to street self-defence. Maybe if I call it an "evidence-based modern hybrid approach to self-defence utilizing lessons learned from sport competition" that would be clearer, though it's easier to write MMA. I'm talking essentially about cross-training MMA with an eye toward self-defence (which many Aikidoka in this thread do) just without the Aikido.
I'd have to respectfully disagree The critical part of any fight isn't the bit where you throw punches and kicks. The most important bit, and the bit MMA pays no attention to, is the bit where you've some how given your opponent an opening and they attempt to put an end to you there and then. Simple fact is if you're alert and on guard you're probably safe.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
I can't spend time to rehash things I've already said in this thread, see post #62 and the link to the boxer in the street fight with multiple attackers. Using any kind of Aikido in that scenario would have lessened his chances of such a favorable outcome by risking getting entangled in standing grappling.
The boxer started the fight and then utilised the same kind of strategy an Aikidoka uses and the complete opposite strategy to the one he would employ in the ring. If he'd have stood and fought, traded punches like a boxer or mmaer does in the ring he'd have been dead. There's no "train as you fight" here.
In fact I'd say he behaved more like a good Aikidoka than a boxer, he used atemi to buy time and space to disengage.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
For MMA (hybrid modern techniques tested against full resistance) we have ample evidence that the techniques and training methods work under serious pressure. We have no such evidence for Aikido, nor is it reasonable to think that cooperative training can lead to the same skills. We also see that boxing punches are too fast and dangerous to allow a serious chance of manipulating the opponent's arms as many Aikido techniques do. Odds are low that your proposition is correct, so there would need to be some compelling evidence to think there is equivalence.
Evidence where? I've not seen MMA or sport fighting in a real situation. The video shows the employment of an Aikido like strategy not an MMA like strategy. If anything we have evidence that if you use tai sabaki and atemi you'll be fine and from that we can suppose that if you stand and fight as you see in the ring and as sport fighters train to do that you're going to loose.
Who cares about the boxers punches? Aikidoka can cover massive distances very quickly, use all that momentum to push him over and then start kicking.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
To look at it from another direction, name an attack that Aikido can handle, that a modern hybrid approach can't handle more reliably and with far less training time invested.
Any attack that involves grappling and striking or a weapon.
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:44 AM   #127
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

fascinating debate. It has all the hallmarks of the classic tma vs mma discussion.
For example "sport fighters only train for the ring, real life is different". The assumption that some how Aikidoka can magically adapt their training methods for the real world but sport fighters can't, even though they have less adaption to do. And now when a video is shown of a boxer doing a good job you are saying that he is not employing boxing strategy but aikido strategy (somehow) so it doesn't count?

Fascinating.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:47 PM   #128
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

I was hoping for a you tube video of Alex.
I do believe that the basic idea of enter, turn, and get out of there related to real life better than staying there and fighting in real life. In real life people have knifes and worse. I'm more of a fan of scooby and shaggy. Aikido lends itself to that mindset better. I only want to stick around and fight when I have to protect a family member or friend and for that MMA rules. Debate that if you like, but I'm driving off in the Mystery Machine.

Rob
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:02 AM   #129
David Paul
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 28
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

my 2 cents. I haven't watched the you tube video, but I am going to say that a real fight is much closer t what happens in the world of MMA because of the intentions of the attacker. In MMA, while it is a sport, those guys (and gals) are trying to hurt the other person. In aikido-you're not. That simple. A real attacker wants to hurt you. This isn't to diminish anyones's study of aikido or aikido as a method of self defence--but if you have an MMA background, you'l fare better. I say this as someone who boxes now and has studied aikido. I dont think of boxing as a form of self defence--but I do think it has better prepared me for being attacked since the guys hitting me are really trying to hit me and really hitting hard. In aikido (in my experiences) it can often be difficult to find someone with a truly sincere attack. If someone isn't trying to hit you as hard as they can--or reasonably hard--you have no need to get out of the way or defend the attack and that is what I have seen at way too many dojos and seminars.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:20 AM   #130
David Paul
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 28
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Many people are understandably vested emotionally in Aikido here, and will give other opinions that they are perfectly entitled to, but the truth is that comparing something like SBGi and Aikido is like comparing a high-end sportscar to a hybrid. The hybrid is peaceful, happy and eco-friendly, but if performance is your goal it's not exactly a tough choice.
Hi Dan. All I can say is AMEN. Nothing wrong with Aikido--but it doesn't toughen one up the way MMA would--which I think prepares you better for real world physical conflicts. This isn't to say that someone who has trained in Aikido for a long while can't defend themselves, but rather someone doesn't need to train nearly as long in MMA (or say boxing or muay thai) to be able to defend themselves.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:12 PM   #131
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 151
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
David Paul DeIuliis wrote: View Post
Hi Dan. All I can say is AMEN. Nothing wrong with Aikido--but it doesn't toughen one up the way MMA would--which I think prepares you better for real world physical conflicts. This isn't to say that someone who has trained in Aikido for a long while can't defend themselves, but rather someone doesn't need to train nearly as long in MMA (or say boxing or muay thai) to be able to defend themselves.
Hi David,

Thanks very much, and best of luck to you in your return to competitive boxing!
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