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Old 05-05-2008, 05:08 PM   #1
numazu
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Resistance in Aikido

Hello. I am a newbie to this forum. There are alot of very knowledgeable people out there so thought I might ask this question:
I have done Shorinji Kempo (which unfortuantely I cant do in my city anymore) and I found it fun and interesting. They have a base in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu and it differs from Aikido in that the person grabbing your wrist or collar offers resistance. They pull you into their body (without going as far as Judo lining up for a hip throw).

I found this suited me more than the Aikido I took because I found in Aikido there wasn't any resistance. I like to feel someone has a hold of me. This is not to disparage Aikido because there were aspects of Aikido I much prefer over Shorinji also.

So...my question is...(took a while to get there):
Which style of Aikido offers the most resistance in partner training?
(the goal being to challenge someones balance without being randori free style). I guess you could classify my preference to being somewhere between a soft and hard style. Not as soft as Ki Aikido and not as hard as Judo.

My thoughts are that either Shodokan or Yoshinkan would be the best bet? Any ideas???

Thanks for your time.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:00 PM   #2
mickeygelum
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
My thoughts are that either Shodokan or Yoshinkan would be the best bet?
Your thoughts are the best thoughts.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:15 PM   #3
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

I must resist answering this question
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:13 PM   #4
eschatts
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

When you first start Aikido, the idea is to learn the technique. And are you progress the resistance is turned up. It is this way in our dojo. You have to know your audience.

I know there are some nights when we are trying to kill each other. The problem is that when you turn it to 11, people can get hurt. So there has to be a balance. I do like resistence. There are some things in Aikido that work very well when the intensity is turned up. Some things don't work so well. So then you need to adapt.

I don't think there is any martial art where the resistance is there all the time. You have to learn, no matter what martial art you are doing. I think the same is for Aikido.
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:57 AM   #5
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

I'd suggest shopping around to see what you like and do not like. Clubs are different, even within the same style. You might find one that is very hard and another that is so soft it could be a dance class.

I do however agree with you about the grabs. It has been my experience that a lot of grabs do not have purpose. Even within the confines of a drill. I've been a huge advocate of grabbing with a purpose in mind and executing that purpose during the drill (with a varying level of speed and power based on your partners ability). I always ask for motivation when asked to grab. A grab in itself is not an attack, it is a transition to an attack. So why am I grabbing you? Do I want to punch you in the face? Do I want to pull you into me and bind you? Am I trying to take you down? The goal of the grab will change the energy of the grab, and thus the technique being worked on.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:18 AM   #6
tuturuhan
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'd suggest shopping around to see what you like and do not like. Clubs are different, even within the same style. You might find one that is very hard and another that is so soft it could be a dance class.

I do however agree with you about the grabs. It has been my experience that a lot of grabs do not have purpose. Even within the confines of a drill. I've been a huge advocate of grabbing with a purpose in mind and executing that purpose during the drill (with a varying level of speed and power based on your partners ability). I always ask for motivation when asked to grab. A grab in itself is not an attack, it is a transition to an attack. So why am I grabbing you? Do I want to punch you in the face? Do I want to pull you into me and bind you? Am I trying to take you down? The goal of the grab will change the energy of the grab, and thus the technique being worked on.
Don,

Point of contention...a GRAB can also be an iron grip that tears into the arm or body. It can also be a soft penetration to pressure points and an attack to the nervous system.

Though, overall I "highly agree" with your practical use of a grab as a transition. Most certainly, the intermediate does not understand this concept of "transition and pivot point" allowing the flexibility to change the attack.

best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:33 AM   #7
rob_liberti
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

And what of the purpose of the study of being grabbed? What do you plan to do with your body to deal with it? If you are grabbed with high resistance so it feels like you are stuck in the mud, what is your plan? Do you turn up your arm muscles? Do you swivel your hips hoping for better position? Do you slap your partner to "soften him up"? - becuase if those are your choices, I'm not sure finding more resistance is going to help you progress all that much. If you are going to coordinate your body structure and deal with that grab from inside out, and a you can do it so easily on a weak or normal grab that you simply need a very strong grab now to continue to make progress, then by all means find a school with sempai who can hold you while standing as coordinated as you are. I would imagine that will help you out a lot. -Rob
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:21 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Hi Alastair,

I would recommend finding a Yoshinkan dojo. Shodokan would also probably fit the bill, but I am not as familiar with that style.

Typically, most Yoshinkan waza that have grabbing attacks have uke pushing, pulling or holding. While the basics waza tend to be highly scripted, they do provide an opportunity to start to realize the power available from your body to match your strong lines against uke's weak lines, and so move even when faced with strong grabbing attacks. Omote (ichi) tends to come from pulling attacks, Ura (ni) tends to come from pushing attacks. Holding can yield either, depending on what you do in your body to deal with the hold. More advanced kata would include grabbing and striking attacks, which can be a lot of fun.

Another style of aikido that likes strong grabs is the Iwama style. From what little experience I have with that style, I would highly recommend it. I have a review of an Iwama dojo in France around somewhere...I'll post a link in a few.

Also, if you can find a style of Daito ryu that maintains it's jujutsu base (like the Mainline under Kondo Sensei), many of their attacks actually have uke trying to follow up with the rest of the attack, not just grabbing. At least at some of the open seminars that I attended, that was a focus. Not just to grab, but to grab and prevent a weapon from being drawn, or to grab, throw, and choke.

I should also note that there are "standard" Aikikai dojo that practice some or all of the things I mentioned...so you should check out what is available in your area, visit, and make your decision accordingly.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:50 AM   #9
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Another style of aikido that likes strong grabs is the Iwama style.
If tori's hand doesn't turn to purple in katatedori, this is a girly grab

Quote:
so you should check out what is available in your area, visit, and make your decision accordingly.
Seconded.

Good luck.

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Old 05-07-2008, 01:05 AM   #10
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Alastair Bain wrote: View Post
I have done Shorinji Kempo (which unfortuantely I cant do in my city anymore) and I found it fun and interesting. They have a base in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu
Lucky you. Shorinji Kempo is a very interesting style, very close to what I do.

Quote:
Alastair Bain wrote: View Post
My thoughts are that either Shodokan or Yoshinkan would be the best bet? Any ideas???
I would add to your list Yoseikan and Iwama Ryu. Shodokan, Yoshinkan and Yoseikan are all different but the same, hard style if you like the tag. Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved but technically very related to the other three.

Guess it's time to shop around...
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:33 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved
Oh REALLY???

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-07-2008, 09:38 AM   #12
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Most Iwama people love to grab as hard as they can, and hold you there, forever.

However in a shodokan school, you're more likely to find functional resistance.

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Old 05-07-2008, 07:26 PM   #13
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Shodokan, Yoshinkan and Yoseikan are all different but the same, hard style if you like the tag. Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved but technically very related to the other three.
More evolved???

Care to explain that?

Quote:
However in a shodokan school, you're more likely to find functional resistance.
Chris has a point here. In fact in Shodokan one would learn how to use relaxation, sensitivity and grounding as a form of "resistance" without needing excessive upper body musculature.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:36 AM   #14
numazu
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and advice. Some good food for thought. I found both a Shodokan and Yoshinkan dojo's not far away. SO I am going to pay a visit. It will probably just come down to which instructor I feel good with. Preferably one with a bit of a sense of humour!
One more little question I have, more out of interest. Does Shodokan have any 'anti judo' locks? I notice the randori is quite judo like in its free form. If someone went fro a hip throw I could imagine some Shodokan people could handle that quite well.
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:01 AM   #15
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved.....

Quote:
ChrisHein wrote:
Most Iwama people love to grab as hard as they can, and hold you there, forever.
It's only a small , but important, aspect of training. Kotai Keiko. For beginners (and it's not about "upper body musculature").

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Old 05-08-2008, 08:08 AM   #16
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Alastair Bain wrote: View Post
One more little question I have, more out of interest. Does Shodokan have any 'anti judo' locks? I notice the randori is quite judo like in its free form. If someone went fro a hip throw I could imagine some Shodokan people could handle that quite well.
Hi Alastair,

Regarding your question, Tomiki (founder of Shodokan) saw Aikido and Judo as sharing fundamentally the same principles, with applicable techniques being determined mainly by distance or ma ai. In this case, Aiki waza would be performed ideally at arm's length using tegatana, Judo type waza would be executed inside of this range (i.e. closer range), which would allow all the leg sweeps, reaps, hip throws etc. to be viable.

Imho if one could get in close enough to even attempt a Judo hip-throw it would mean that ones control of ma ai (distance) has already failed, which makes it more than likely that ones Aiki waza will also fail.

Imho the Judoka should ideally be stopped (i.e. Aiki waza should be executed) before he got into gripping range to execute any sort of kuzushi for a hip throw.

Just my 2 cents.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:58 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

The main line school of Daito ryu does include "anti judo" waza, and not at arm's length. BUT it does utilize atemi rather heavily in these circumstances. It is my opinion also that body skills of the type Akuzawa Sensei teaches are also important in this close distance.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-08-2008, 09:06 AM   #18
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Alastair Bain wrote: View Post
One more little question I have, more out of interest. Does Shodokan have any 'anti judo' locks? I notice the randori is quite judo like in its free form. If someone went fro a hip throw I could imagine some Shodokan people could handle that quite well.
Surely you'll find this interesting.
http://home.scarlet.be/~ewolput/Ueshiba%20Daito.pdf

Can the resident shodothugs give more info about the subject?

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Old 05-08-2008, 09:45 AM   #19
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
More evolved???

Care to explain that?
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Oh REALLY???
More evolved since it represents O Sensei's form at his final stage. More evolved not necesarily meaning "better" -that whould be a silly argument-. Really.
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:17 AM   #20
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Surely you'll find this interesting.
http://home.scarlet.be/~ewolput/Ueshiba%20Daito.pdf

Can the resident shodothugs give more info about the subject?
Hi Demetrio,

Wow, you've found a document that I have not seen for some time. In essence however, Shishida Shihan is saying the same thing that I did in my last post, but in a much, much more knowledgeable manner.

Regarding Admiral Takeshita's book "Kon", I have never seen it so I can't give any info on the precise waza that Shishida Shihan refers to. There are others such as Peter R who may be able to shed more light on the subject I think. I hope he's watching.

Regarding 14:
Quote:
Concerning Ueshiba's techniques
(1) Most of the techniques in the 148 techniques defend instantly against being grasped at the collar(s) and sleeve(s).
(2) The expression "show sprit" or "Kokyu wo ire" is used in 37 passages in the 148 techniques. "Kokyu wo ire" can be regarded as the same as the skill of aiki in Daito-ryu.
Part 1 goes to what I said about arm`s length in a sense. It also relates to something I did not mention, which is Sen (timing), specifically pre-emptive timing where the attack or grasp in the case of a Judoka is not allowed to fully take hold, reducing the potential for kuzushi and any follow up judo waza. The Aikidoka does not wait until the judoka has started executing a hip throw to start his response iow. At tegatana distance however, the Aikidoka is able to execute kuzushi, and manipulate the grip of the Judoka before it sets in place.

On another note, most of the Aikido techniques from wrist grabs can also be applied to a gi-sleeve grab. Ever wondered what sort of person would keep holding onto your wrist after you`ve started to move to escape the attack? Someone who wanted to control that wrist for something else such as a throw, or to stop you from using a weapon.

Part 2 is very important and deals with a core of aiki waza, that of reading the opponent`s movement, mind, intent, energy etc. and acting instantly (showing spirit) and powerfully (using i do ryoku and toitsu ryoku). Imho it is akin to cutting through the enemy with your mind/spirit decisively, allowing the body to act instantaneously. I think this is critical to applied aiki waza, especially in the face of a good Judoka - if you start to react after they have gripped you (go no sen) you`re probably already half-way to the floor.

Finally, from the article:
Quote:
(3) There are around 32 expressions "Hikiotosu" or "pulling an opponent down". Special features of this technique include moving backward while arcing downward and sitting down swiftly to drop one's body weight.
In my own little experience it makes sense that this type of waza (hiki otoshi) can be effective if one is dealing with most (though not all) Judo style gi grabs that pre-empt a technique (as seen in standing Judo randori). A video of hiki otoshi as we do it in kihon can be found here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10d.html - and is very effective when the attacker`s elbow is already bent (e.g. when going for a gi lapel or arm grab a la Judo).

Just my thoughts. They may be worth exactly what you paid for them.

Best.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:40 AM   #21
numazu
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Thanks for those links. Good stuff. From my understanding, Ueshiba had perfected the art of dealing with the judo approaches BEFORE they managed a grip or hold. However on the down side, if a Judoka did get that hold it was difficult to deal with.
More of Shodokan I see the more practical I see it. Good blend of what works but witin the bounds of not using orce to execute the technique.
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:41 AM   #22
numazu
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Sorry, that should say "force".
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:37 AM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

I thought you said
Quote:
Good blend of what works but witin the bounds of not using orcs to execute the technique.
Sometimes on Koshi I could really use an orc or two...
Best,
Ron

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Old 05-10-2008, 06:58 AM   #24
numazu
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Orc's are pretty useful in a tough situation. Most people run away from because they are so ugly.
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Old 05-11-2008, 10:50 AM   #25
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

The only real way to learn to deal with judo guys, is going to be to find a few and play with them.

Then use your resources to find out what really works for you.

- Don
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