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Old 04-25-2008, 10:48 AM   #201
lbb
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I don't want to disparage anyone's scholarship, but to a degree, aren't all these assertions about what Ueshiba wanted and thought and believed in like a combination of the blind men and the elephant and a game of telephone? This one feels the elephant's side and makes a pronouncement about the nature of the elephant, that one feels the elephant's leg and says, "No, you're wrong, this is what an elephant is like!" Ueshiba says something, someone tries to remember it and repeats it to others, eventually someone writes it down, then someone else translates it, other people read it, then repeat it as they remember it to others, who repeat it to others...and everyone filters what they remember through their own cultural perspective, life experience, etc.

I don't think anyone can dispute the existence of this phenomenon in aikido. Given that, does it make sense to resort to authority and quote/interpret Ueshiba in support of this or that view?
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:58 AM   #202
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Given that, does it make sense to resort to authority and quote/interpret Ueshiba in support of this or that view?
Mary,
That is done so that Jun doesn't shut down the thread for being unrelated to aikido.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:06 AM   #203
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hello again, and thanks for the direct responses to my contributions to this discussion and to the contributions in general.

Let me first say that the point of me bringing this up one more time has only to do with my sincere desire to bring an exploration of the deeper meanings of aikido to those interested in it, not to convince anyone that his or her perspective is wrong or that my perspective is right. Let me add, that I sincerely trust that any path to greater understanding of Aiki is of value even if it is not a path I would take.

To reiterate my point of view without going into specifics, I am of the viewpoint that the purpose of aikido as espoused by the founder is to express a loving response to those who would attack. Particular to this thread, that means that, as well as to the student and her family and their community, we should express compassion to Clint George who has been accused of having an inappropriate relationship with a young woman.

I think it's safe to say that contributions to this thread that support either of my points of view do not exceed those that in some way argue against one or both of my main points.

In the last few responses to my entries, some very good points were brought up about my lack of direct knowledge of aikido and it's founder and my possible misinterpretation of the Founder's words, goals and embodiment of aikido due to my Western mind-set and/or lack of understanding of the Japanese language. All of these are valid points, as far as I am concerned.

Among the aikidoka in this forum is a vast resource in understanding of the art and it's founder, many combined years of study, so I humbly ask your assistance in understanding the point of view that is contrary to one that says that the goal of aikido is the positive transformation of self and others through the extension of loving protection of all things without exception; meaning that everyone and everything that is part of nature, including those who fall prey to the evil within us all, is worthy of our compassionate response.

I consider myself very fortunate to have had direct personal contact with two of Osensei's pre-war uchideshi, one of whom spoke no English. Our conversation was interpreted by both Japanese and American translators, so I feel safe believing that at least verbally, he was understanding my questions and I was receiving a translation that was as accurate as possible. The other pre-war uchideshi speaks fluent English, currently resides in the United States, and is credited with translation of Morihei Ueshiba's book Aikido, and in fact, is a translator by occupation and avocation, having translated many buddhist and taoist texts across a number of languages.

In my conversations with these two gentlemen, both of which were focused on the purpose and nature of aikido, never did either tell me anything that was in any way in opposition to my basic premise as outlined above. To the contrary, both of them, from their Eastern mind-sets and thorough understanding of the Japanese language, supported my understanding of the Founder's purpose as I stated it above.

I concede that I never asked about Osensei's ability to live up to the ideals of aikido as I understand them, nor did they offer evidence or anecdote one way or the other.

Understanding that these are only two men out of the many who have had direct and lengthy relationships with the founder, it could be that they too have misinterpreted the purpose of aikido, and it will take the wisdom of someone here to offer an enlightened contrast to their understanding.

If anyone would please be so kind as to offer me instruction as to how I've misinterpreted the meaning of the following quotes of Osensei to mean something other than the one I have assessed to it, please do so.

Chris Moses has offered an alternate interpretation to the first quote, but I should have included with it the context in which the quote was relayed in Kanshu Sunadomari's book Enlightenment through Aikido:

" 'The "Aiki" of which conventional martial artists spoke and the "Aiki" of which I speak are fundamentally different in both essence and substance. It is my sincere hope that you will ponder this deeply.'

"He further stated:

"Aikido is not the art of fighting using brute strength or deadly weapons, or the use of physical power or deadly weapons to destroy one's enemies, but a way of harmonizing the world and unifying the human race as one family. It is a path of service that works through the spirit of God's love and universal harmony by the fulfillment of each individual's respective role. This way is the way of the universe; the training in Aiki is training in divine technique. Begin to put this into practice, and the power of the universe will come forth and you will be in accord with the universe itself.'"


"The martial arts must be the path that brings our hearts into oneness with the spirit of Heaven and Earth to complete our mission in life by instilling in us a love and reverence for all of nature"

"Aiki is the way of love. It is the path that brings our hearts into oneness with the spirit of the universe to complete our mission in life by instilling in us a love and reverence for all of nature"

"Harmonious ki is in accordance with the principles of nature; drawing things in through the ki of love is the first principle."

"The people of the world are all brothers and sisters. We must connect by the string of love. All of the arts are working for the purpose of doing this. We as Japanese must teach the world the true spirit of Japan. As Japanese, we must spread the teaching of the true Japanese spirit to the people of the world through the 'bu' path of Aikido. More than thinking of each other as mere comrades, we must come to think of people of the world as one family living under the same roof, and move forward giving help to others when they are in need and receiving help when we are in distress."


one of the Founder's poems:

The source of Aiki,
flows from the power of love:
With this as the core
love shall spread through the world
flourishing endlessly.


other quotes:

"The ki of love is like the light from the sun; Left, right, above, below, in front, in back, you must envelop yourself in it."

"The subtle and ever-evolving art of takemusu: to fulfill your destiny through the living ki of love."

"Aiki overcomes self. It not only takes hostility from our hearts, but in turning those who appear as enemies into enemies no more, it leads to absolute perfection of self."


I could go on, but the message, as I see it, is redundant. I concede that most of these quotes were offered in the context of a book which supports the point of view I have represented.

I am very open to hearing how these declarations might be interpreted differently on their face.

I just saw your post Mary, and I think that it is important for us to reflect from our own perspectives what Osensei was talking about because as of today his words are all we have left of his experience. As in the first quote I mentioned, Osensei asks his audience to "ponder this deeply." If there is a goal to our practice other than doing it "because we like to" isn't it reasonable to consider what manifests as the summit of our potential through the art? And who would know what that summit is more than the Founder of the art?

Last edited by CorkyQ : 04-25-2008 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:27 AM   #204
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
If anyone would please be so kind as to offer me instruction as to how I've misinterpreted the meaning of the following quotes of Osensei to mean something other than the one I have assessed to it, please do so.

Chris Moses has offered an alternate interpretation to the first quote, but I should have included with it the context in which the quote was relayed in Kanshu Sunadomari's book Enlightenment through Aikido:

...
I'll point you to my usual interview source.

Specifically:

Quote:
O Sensei: In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in Aikido. The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu; since you win over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven, you possess absolute strength.

Interviewer: Does that mean ~o no sen? (This term refers to a late response to an attack.)

O Sensei: Absolutely not. It is not a question of either sensen no sen or sen no sen. If I were to try to verbalize it I would say that you control your opponent without trying to control him. That is, the state of continuous victory. There isn't any question of winning over or losing to an opponent. In this sense, there is no opponent in Aikido. Even if you have an opponent, he becomes a part of you, a partner you control only.
(note: edited for clarity)

Note here that the harmony he's talking about is absolute victory because you act as an instrument in the will of the kami, not a coming together of equals or an appreciation of ones enemies ideals (a la relativism). I think there's an assumption from a lot of Western students that "everyone has a part to play in the world." I think OSensei was concerned with those working as foot soldiers for the divine order he believed in. In that sense, those in Aikido channel the power and purpose of something greater *in order to win over those whose ideas and actions lie specifically outside of that divine vision.* Key distinction, IMHO.

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Old 04-25-2008, 11:57 AM   #205
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I can see where you are coming from, Chris, thanks for responding. How does your idea enmesh with the first part of that interview in which Osensei states:

"This universe is composed of many different parts, and yet the universe as a whole is united as a family and symbolizes the ultimate state of peace. Holding such a view of the universe, Aikido cannot be anything but a martial art of love. It cannot be a martial art of violence."

In my interpretation Osensei means to achieve that which is contained in your quote through the power of overcoming one's own imperfections, not those of others - "The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu".

And what can be said about Ueshiba's reference to having dismay at having"taught martial arts to be~used for the purpose of killing others to soldiers during the War, I became deeply troubled after the conflict ended. This motivated me to discover the true spirit of Aikido seven years ago, at which time I came upon the idea of building a heaven on earth."

What kind of heaven is devoid of compassion?

And then there it is again in the second paragraph of the interview you linked to:

"The realization of this mission is the path to the evolution of universal humanity. When I came to this realization, I concluded that the true state of Aikido is love and harmony. Thus the "Bu" (martial) in Aikido is the expression of love. I was studying Aikido in order to serve my country. Thus, the spirit of Aikido can only be love and harmony."

What do you make of that? Thanks again.
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:11 PM   #206
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
In my interpretation Osensei means to achieve that which is contained in your quote through the power of overcoming one's own imperfections, not those of others - "The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu".
I've addressed a lot of this over the years, both here an e-budo. Short version is that masakatsu and agatsu *doesn't* mean overcoming ones own imperfections. It's the beginning of a kami's name, and OSensei seems to be referencing the kami in most instances when he used that term. One offered translation/exposition of the kami's name btw is, "I won completely by myself with speed and power."

This is drifting a lot however and into areas that I've already discussed at length. Hit up the search feature if you're actually interested.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:29 PM   #207
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi Chris,
Peter Goldsbury's posts in that area really opened my eyes a lot.

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-25-2008, 04:28 PM   #208
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I've addressed a lot of this over the years, both here an e-budo. Short version is that masakatsu and agatsu *doesn't* mean overcoming ones own imperfections.
Ahem.

FWIW -- I disagree with Amdur's suggestion above that Ueshiba was "not a moral man" in the Western sense or otherwise. It is dangerous to do armchair psychology (even for someone like Amdur who does it for a living) and judge a Japanese, morally, by their set of associations. Most classical Japanese tragedies turn on the web of conflicting giri and ninjo. Unlike we fractious and disputatious Westerners, personal associations during O Sensei's life were not so freely chosen -- or disposed of -- regardless of the present views among the new generation.

As to Chris's related point, it is at odds with some fairly notable statements made by O Sensei in his own words. As with here (at 1:27) [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XTlW...eature=related ] speaking explicitly of Aikido being a "path to self-perfection for all human beings."

Or here (beginning at 4:35) [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XTlW...eature=related ] where he speaks of assimilating himself to the "one Creator" -- praying and "for the sake of harmony," "saluting all of creation and the divine spirits," and hoping "to live a good life as a man and a Japanese" and to "pray for the peace of the world."

Anybody who chooses to can quibble with the translations of his spoken words, but as far as I am aware they are authoritative. And this is highly consistent with the more extensive and elaborated discussion he has on these points in the Takemusu Aiki lectures.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:25 PM   #209
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I'm not seeing the conflict.
I see aikido as a transformative path to manifesting your true self.
To do that you have to identify your ego (that which separates you from your true self) and not act from it.

We do this in a physical way every class. We move with the attacker such that both uke and nage are contributing to the overall movement. There is no defending from aikido becuase uke is contributing.

To achieve that I'm learning more and more internal aiki - which I find requires that I do not move in an isolated or disconnected fashion from my whole being. It seems natural to me that O sensei learned this way of moving and went spiritual with it. That is my plan as well.

From my perspective nothing I am reading from O sensei is at odds at all.

It always comes back to how to you learn and teach judgment, build people up enough to help them with their own brutally honest self-criticism, and empower them to make the changes they need to make. As I see it, aikido needs to empower us physically so much that we feel secure enough to open ourselves up and make such changes emotionally. That's how it's been going for me so far anyway.

A big thing to deal with is the ego we bring to our first aikido class. How did it get so damaged? Why isn't the current practice of aikido exposing such issues before people become teachers?

Rob
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:41 PM   #210
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Ahem.

FWIW -- I disagree with Amdur's suggestion above that Ueshiba was "not a moral man" in the Western sense or otherwise. It is dangerous to do armchair psychology (even for someone like Amdur who does it for a living) and judge a Japanese, morally, by their set of associations. Most classical Japanese tragedies turn on the web of conflicting giri and ninjo. Unlike we fractious and disputatious Westerners, personal associations during O Sensei's life were not so freely chosen -- or disposed of -- regardless of the present views among the new generation.

As to Chris's related point, it is at odds with some fairly notable statements made by O Sensei in his own words. As with here (at 1:27) [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XTlW...eature=related ] speaking explicitly of Aikido being a "path to self-perfection for all human beings."

Or here (beginning at 4:35) [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XTlW...eature=related ] where he speaks of assimilating himself to the "one Creator" -- praying and "for the sake of harmony," "saluting all of creation and the divine spirits," and hoping "to live a good life as a man and a Japanese" and to "pray for the peace of the world."

Anybody who chooses to can quibble with the translations of his spoken words, but as far as I am aware they are authoritative. And this is highly consistent with the more extensive and elaborated discussion he has on these points in the Takemusu Aiki lectures.
I can agree with the majority of your argument, Mr. Mead. Ueshiba was a product of his time & culture and it would be intellectually dishonest to hold him "accountable" to our contemporary Western culture's standards, particularly those who wish to cast him as the proto-hippie. However, if we look at his associations throughout his lifetime, he'd squarely fall on the right side of the isle even by today's standards...both politically & socially. He was certainly heavily involved in what was the Japanese rough equivalent of the John Birch Society.

Methinks the real issue is those that subscribe to the hagiographical depiction of O'Sensei as popularized by the likes of John Stevens.

Back on topic pertinent to this thread: I think O'Sensei would let his senior students (i.e. lieutenants) deal with the issue.
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:10 PM   #211
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
I can agree with the majority of your argument, Mr. Mead. Ueshiba was a product of his time & culture ... , if we look at his associations throughout his lifetime, he'd squarely fall on the right side of the isle even by today's standards...both politically & socially.
As Ted Nugent is to rock and roll, so Ueshiba is to mystical martial enlightenment ... ??

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
He was certainly heavily involved in what was the Japanese rough equivalent of the John Birch Society.
Yes, but "Why?" is the question there. The Genyosha certainly cajoled Deguchi into being catspaw for their entry into the "great game" in East Asia (which we and the British already had our hands in). I suspect that certain members of the Genyosha, (and future influential persons in the Kempei-tai) were primarily responsible for getting his ass out of hock when the Chinese captured him in the Mongolian debacle. In which case, I suspect it has little to do with his agreement with their politics or moral opinions. It would have been a life-debt, a serious matter of giri that may not be abandoned however distasteful those may be to whom it is owed.

So far as I am aware, there are no remotely related complicating or extenuating issues in the topic under discussion here.

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Methinks the real issue is those that subscribe to the hagiographical depiction of O'Sensei as popularized by the likes of John Stevens.
No arguments here. The most useful thing he has published for me was the Doka in kana with both the functional syntax (his take) and more literal syntax translations in parallel.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:10 AM   #212
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Why are we mincing words about O Sensei's philosophy or any religious reference ?

If Clint George Sensei really did have a liaison with an underage student (which has not yet been proven), he crossed a legal line. Entertaining such a relationship with a minor, especially when one is in a position of authority (such as a teacher) is against a law that was meant to protect society's weaker elements and that put a clear age limit.
Some young people might be mature before their years, but it is not the law's concern anyway, a limit is a limit.
An experienced teacher is expected to know it and respect it, even if it goes against his personal inclination. If he/she crosses that line, he/she expected to face all the legal consequences of his/her actions, derived from the breach of the trust that was put in him/her.

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Old 04-26-2008, 10:45 AM   #213
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
Why are we mincing words about O Sensei's philosophy or any religious reference ?

If Clint George Sensei really did have a liaison with an underage student (which has not yet been proven), he crossed a legal line. Entertaining such a relationship with a minor, especially when one is in a position of authority (such as a teacher) is against a law that was meant to protect society's weaker elements and that put a clear age limit.
Some young people might be mature before their years, but it is not the law's concern anyway, a limit is a limit.
An experienced teacher is expected to know it and respect it, even if it goes against his personal inclination. If he/she crosses that line, he/she expected to face all the legal consequences of his/her actions, derived from the breach of the trust that was put in him/her.
Yes. It seems pretty straight forward to me.

We can easily move to the kind of theororizing that is included in this thread in just about any thread. Believe me, I've done it. There is a time for common trust to be demanded and exercised in our small but important world. So, let's keep it simple.
Now is a time to be loving, and I think the fact that so little derogatory assumptions are being made in the face of such a strong and 'button-pushing' situation speaks to the benefit of the doubt held in most peoples hearts commenting in this thread. There is more education than accusation. More inquiry than inquisition. More heartfulness than hurtfullness. More caring than cursing. These are good steps in the direction of compassion for everyone.

And the situation remains.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 04-26-2008, 01:15 PM   #214
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Ah, these last three posts are just what this thread should be all about, in my humble opinion.

Dewey, the viewpoint of Osensei holding up aikido as a way to offer a loving response to one who attacks is not just a Western-ized concept produced by biographers like John Stevens. The two pre-war uchideshi with whom I have spoken with at length about this both held this point of view. One of them, at 84 years of age, still leading practice sessions after 70 years of training, after beginning his study with Osensei at age 14, told me that he is still finding new levels of aikido. For others this may be different, but for him it is all about erasing animosity from his own heart. He personally emphasized to me to study the words of the founder, that relying on technique would bring me to a wall in my training. He may be wrong about it all, but it all makes perfect sense to me.

Where this brings this all back to the discussion of Clint George is in what Jennifer brought up. The crux of truth here is what we do when someone has crossed the line, as Ludwig put it.

The taking advantage of a child is the most egregious sin in our minds, which is why this is such a litmus test of our ability to forgive and offer compassion.

IF Osensei meant for aikido to offer loving protection to all things, and IF it is about removing hostility from our hearts so that we can view those we would perceive as enemies as enemies no more, then the image of a child molester now becomes our chance to put up or shut up.

This is not a call to abolish punishment, for punishment there shall always be. We will all be punished for our mistakes, for our wrongs, for our deeds when we give in to the evil in our hearts. But compassion is about understanding the pain that evil people feel themselves when they are faced with the consequences of their actions.

Has anyone of us missed out on the pain of humiliation and shame that Clint George is now feeling and will likely feel for the rest of his life? Again, this is not about excusing his behavior, it is about extending love unconditionally to someone whose punishment will meted out. In this way everyone, including Clint George, will be brought into harmony with the universe, if my interpretation of Osensei's words is accurate. So Jennifer, I hold that refraining from derogatory statements and offering the benefit of the doubt is a good start, but the real power of aikido begins when there is a proactive offering of compassion an forgiveness before and after our doubts are proven.

There will always be those whose hearts are hardened, who refuse to give one ounce of love or caring to those who have offended, especially in the most egregious ways. But the path of aikido for me (even though I may be called ignorant and foolish) is to open my heart to victim and perpetrator alike, to draw out compassion and forgiveness to the best of my current and imperfect ability to do so.

To the teenager, to the family of the teenager, to the members of the Helena dojo, to the aikido community at large, and to Clint George whose mistake, illness or evil has invited this calamity to be born, my heart goes out to you in the hour of your need.
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Old 04-26-2008, 03:52 PM   #215
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Ah, these last three posts are just what this thread should be all about, in my humble opinion.

Dewey, the viewpoint of Osensei holding up aikido as a way to offer a loving response to one who attacks is not just a Western-ized concept produced by biographers like John Stevens. The two pre-war uchideshi with whom I have spoken with at length about this both held this point of view. One of them, at 84 years of age, still leading practice sessions after 70 years of training, after beginning his study with Osensei at age 14, told me that he is still finding new levels of aikido. For others this may be different, but for him it is all about erasing animosity from his own heart. He personally emphasized to me to study the words of the founder, that relying on technique would bring me to a wall in my training. He may be wrong about it all, but it all makes perfect sense to me.

Where this brings this all back to the discussion of Clint George is in what Jennifer brought up. The crux of truth here is what we do when someone has crossed the line, as Ludwig put it.

The taking advantage of a child is the most egregious sin in our minds, which is why this is such a litmus test of our ability to forgive and offer compassion.

IF Osensei meant for aikido to offer loving protection to all things, and IF it is about removing hostility from our hearts so that we can view those we would perceive as enemies as enemies no more, then the image of a child molester now becomes our chance to put up or shut up.

This is not a call to abolish punishment, for punishment there shall always be. We will all be punished for our mistakes, for our wrongs, for our deeds when we give in to the evil in our hearts. But compassion is about understanding the pain that evil people feel themselves when they are faced with the consequences of their actions.

Has anyone of us missed out on the pain of humiliation and shame that Clint George is now feeling and will likely feel for the rest of his life? Again, this is not about excusing his behavior, it is about extending love unconditionally to someone whose punishment will meted out. In this way everyone, including Clint George, will be brought into harmony with the universe, if my interpretation of Osensei's words is accurate. So Jennifer, I hold that refraining from derogatory statements and offering the benefit of the doubt is a good start, but the real power of aikido begins when there is a proactive offering of compassion an forgiveness before and after our doubts are proven.

There will always be those whose hearts are hardened, who refuse to give one ounce of love or caring to those who have offended, especially in the most egregious ways. But the path of aikido for me (even though I may be called ignorant and foolish) is to open my heart to victim and perpetrator alike, to draw out compassion and forgiveness to the best of my current and imperfect ability to do so.

To the teenager, to the family of the teenager, to the members of the Helena dojo, to the aikido community at large, and to Clint George whose mistake, illness or evil has invited this calamity to be born, my heart goes out to you in the hour of your need.
That's fine... you're entitled to your opinion.

For one, ephebophilia (or pedophilia, for that matter) cannot be: dismissed, ignored, rationalized in anywise sort of fashion. Regardless, it is "evil" (I say this as a devout Catholic). What Mr. George has done is evil...plain & simple. A pubescent child cannot morally and/or ethically be consensual in regards to their sexuality. The magic number of "18" wasn't arrived at arbitrarily.

O'Sensei might have babbled on about "loving kindness" and/or of "loving protection"...that's fine. He was referring to budo, not to life in general. Compassion & forgiveness as O'Sensei eloquently waxed upon was understood in regards to budo. That's all.

Sure, I as a good Christian, can forgive. Does that mean that I forget? No way!

Last edited by Dewey : 04-26-2008 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:42 PM   #216
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Corky, I must admit that I find your comments extremely difficult to swallow. To twist the words of O-sensei into arguing that the act of forgiving the sexual abuse of a child is somehow a noble thing is beyond me. He didn't just write "take one step aside" but "take one step aside and cut them down at the speed of light. (grossly translated, but you get the idea)

And combining that twisted argument with your earlier comments such as this being only a crime of "love" and "misplaced love"... Well in combination I think it shows a truly profound lack of understanding as to the nature of such crimes. And this is very disturbing to me to say the very least.

Obviously I'm not as evolved a human as you for I cannot for the life of me see how anything you wrote is anything more than empty pontification and self-aggrandizing posturing at the expense of a truly horrible situation.

I think Dewey nailed it in his comments above.

For my part I'm working on researching the topic more in order to put together a class for our kids and their parents to present these issues (with parental consent of course). And also to help formulate some ideas as to how we might even want to change some of our practices in the dojo to ensure a safe, enriching environment for all our students, especially our kids. All the time spent getting annoyed on-line is time I'm not spending trying to make sure it doesn't happen in my world. So I'm bowing out of this conversation while my blood pressure is still manageable.

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Old 04-26-2008, 08:22 PM   #217
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

A question for all:
If Clint were your sensei, would you continue that relationship at this point in time?

Last edited by gdandscompserv : 04-26-2008 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 04-26-2008, 08:23 PM   #218
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
The magic number of "18" wasn't arrived at arbitrarily.
Yes it was.
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Old 04-26-2008, 08:43 PM   #219
G DiPierro
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
A pubescent child cannot morally and/or ethically be consensual in regards to their sexuality. The magic number of "18" wasn't arrived at arbitrarily.
What "magic number" would that be? If you mean the age of consent, in Montana it is actually 16, as it is in most US states. In most of the rest it is 17 or 18, although in at least one state it is only 14. Outside of the US, 14 is not uncommon and in some countries it is even as low as 12. Do you believe that adolescents mature at different rates in different states and countries or do you think these differences in age of consent laws are arbitrary?
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Old 04-26-2008, 08:58 PM   #220
rob_liberti
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
A question for all:
If Clint were your sensei, would you continue that relationship at this point in time?
I was thinking the same thing while reading about that concept of giri that was being discussed about Osensei and the relationships he maintained.

So, I suppose, if he were my sensei AND he broke me out of Chinese prision, then yes.

Otherwise, no...

Rob
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:17 PM   #221
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
A question for all:
If Clint were your sensei, would you continue that relationship at this point in time?
It is a no brainer for me, Of course not if he has crossed the line with a child. Clint not beingJapanese, but an American who was rased and brought up in America is judged up against the American morals, ethics and values, a.k.a character. Character is the number one quality for anyone leading others in anything.

If the appropriate behavior and character of a person isn't exercised in a leadership position, that person has forfeited their right to leader.

Why apply compassion to Clint George? I am not Osensei, Dali Lama, Buddha, Jesus, or enlightened. In my book compassion isn't a get out of jail free card. It doesn't let someone off the hook. It means not going out and stoning that person. It means having consideration such as, a fair trial instead of getting a lynch mob together. It is understanding the consequences and what some one is going to go through because of their actions. I am not mean. Compassion for means that.

If he has fallen, he will suffer the concequences of his actions. That doesn't mean I would be nasty to him. But, he would not continue to be my sensei. I wouldn't follow him as my character is different.
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Old 04-27-2008, 06:15 AM   #222
Big Dave
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I have been high school history teacher for 15 years. If these allegations are true, then this instructor has violated a fundamental trust. Students "fall in love" with their teachers all the time. This happens for variety of reasons. Frequently, the reasons have to do with abusive relationships at home. Teachers are expected to know and understand this, to deflect those feelings and absolutely never take advantage of them. This teacher, if guilty, violated that trust.
There are laws in all states that make relationships between students and their teachers illegal regardless of the students' age specifically because of the common nature of this problem. Once students reach college age then they and their teachers are free to do as like.
I am somewhat disturbed by those that would seemingly defend his actions on the basis that in some cultures, the age of consent is 12.
If these allegations are true, there was a fundamental breach of trust that took place here. Teachers that violate this trust are predators. In my mind, there is no justification for that.
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Old 04-27-2008, 06:50 AM   #223
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
David Peling wrote: View Post
I am somewhat disturbed by those that would seemingly defend his actions on the basis that in some cultures, the age of consent is 12.
Don't be disturbed. No one here has done that. Heck, no one has defended him. Even Corky is only suggesting unconditional forgiveness, which by definition means that the forgivee has done something wrong.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:35 AM   #224
aikidoaddict
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

This sort of thing happened in Australia years ago. It was investifated internally (wrong way to go about it) and was found not to be true. Funny thing was that the girl involved still swore it happened. It ws all hushed up so as not to disturb the Japanese Shihan in charge. The perpitrator finally left and started up his own branch.
Is there a complaints department for wrong doings at Hombu japan? Who can you contact to let it be known something is amiss?
When Hombu does not know what is happening around the world they cannot effectively manage Aikido worldwide. I know many wrong things have happened in Australia (not to mention all over the world) throughout the years, but who do you turn to? It seems a bit unfair that the people who cover up wrongdoings are promoted to ranks demanding respect and awe.
What can aikido people worldwide do to inform Hombu about any wrondoings? They need to be responsable and pro active yes?
Paul
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:19 AM   #225
rob_liberti
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Paul Araki-Metcalfe wrote: View Post
It seems a bit unfair that the people who cover up wrongdoings are promoted to ranks demanding respect and awe.
I basically agree with the intend of this statement. However, I think giving people respect is *almost* polar opposite with "awe". I think it would be more respectful to not demonstrate your "awe" as much as just appreciate their abilities and hopefully their abilities to transmit to others without being abusive of their power differential. But I do agree strongly believe that if they don't have it, or can't help you with it, or are abusive I say don't promote them past a certain point.

For instance, if they don't have it but are VERY loyal, then promote them up to nidan and never again. It's done in Japan all the time. (not everywhere of course).

If they have it but either don't have the ability to transmit or still display a tendency to abuse the power differential then promote them to sandan and never again. They never need to reach any teaching rank. If loyalty is going to be rewarded, be loyal to the art which therefor MEANS be loyal to protecting the junior students.

The question is how to best evaluate if they abuse the power differential. Most abusers are very sweet to their seniors. I would like to see some online opinion polls of student's dojo behaviors. Set it up so that only the teaching staff and heads of the organizations can access such information. For that matter. I'd like to see incidence reports that follow dojo accidents tied to all involved. If someone has been involved in 10 accidents where they threw someone into someone else (or had some sexual abuse claims), but moved to 3 different dojos and that information would have gotten a bit lost, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if that information followed them around, keyed by their honbu identification number or whatever organizations use to go along with rank.

We have enough people in aikido now. We can take advantage of modern times and start filtering a bit so that we end up with even MORE people in aikido that we WANT in aikido.

Rob
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