Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2010, 11:55 AM   #451
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 607
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Matt,

Reading between the lines of the article on sentencing Keith attached, it appears the evaluation led to the defendant being adjudged a "tier I" offender, i.e., unlikely to reoffend. That conclusion probably had a big influence on the suspension of 15 years.

cdh
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 12:18 PM   #452
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,086
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Matt,

Reading between the lines of the article on sentencing Keith attached, it appears the evaluation led to the defendant being adjudged a "tier I" offender, i.e., unlikely to reoffend. That conclusion probably had a big influence on the suspension of 15 years.

cdh
Thanks, David. I didn't scroll back far enough to see that. I believe that's a real shame he seems to have been treated so kindly by the court system. I don't believe jail is the best rehabilitation, but I also believe certain crimes deserve very strict punishment. In my opinion it doesn't sound like Mr George was given the sentence he deserves.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-13-2010 at 12:24 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 12:35 PM   #453
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I suggest, though, that, rather than judging and condemning a man many of us have never even met, we allow Mr. George to teach us one last lesson: that no level of mastery, no amount of authority, and no number of good intentions will make us morally invincible.
In point of fact, it is usually quite the opposite. While the spiritual path is admirable, it is not in any way a "normal" one. When a young person gets that focused, that early in life, it does not result in a fully developed.person. Virtually every major spiritual system that came over from the East had major problems with scandals. This was true in the Zen, Tibetan Buddhist, and Yoga communities as well as the martial arts community.

Jack Kornfield, one of the senior Vipassana teachers in the US, talked in one of his books about the fact that when he came back from his years of training in the forest monasteries of SE Asia, the first thing he needed to do was do ten years of therapy. The high level spiritual insights gained from the training did not mean that he had dealt with childhood issues or become an integrated personality. He had relationship problems, etc. just like any other person.

Joko Beck,one of the amazing female Zen teachers here in the states wrote about the lack of connection between "enlightenment" and being a well integrated and balanced personality. You simply cannot assume one leads to the other. I think that people have not really understood this well. Her believe is that the training should perhaps incorporate some work that would address this issue.

Not only does an Aikido teacher get NO training in ethics, transference, etc in preparation for being in his or her exalted position (as any doctor, lawyer, mental health practitioner or other professional, even a massage therapist) but often, the roles models upon whom he might base his behavior were bad. Ellis Amdur writes about this in his book Dueling with O-Sensei at length.

People need to look at their teachers for what they are and no more. Don't assume that just because the person has mastered a certain degree of technical proficiency, this has much bearing at all on his proficiency at being a human being. Don't assume that just because the teacher is a fantastic human being, their Aikido is very good. Technical expertise does not in any way equate to wisdom nor does wisdom necessarily infer technical expertise. Only occasionally do we find a teacher who has both.

Folks need to look at themselves and understand how they try to make their teachers in to something they badly want them to be but really are not. Aside from the devastation when the teacher turns out not to be what you had constructed in your mind it simply isn't good for your own training to put anyone above you in that way. It leads to an acceptance of being below them, technically and as a person. No matter how amazing ones teacher is, the entire point of your own training is when you are going to decide to be amazing yourself...

So, explanations are not excuses but they are needed to understand what and why something happens. That understanding is needed to be able to see what is before you and what is inside you. Only in that way can one not get caught up in the whole web of delusion which causes these types of problems.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 12:55 PM   #454
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

^^ Extraordinary post. Thank you.

Quote:
Joko Beck,one of the amazing female Zen teachers here in the states wrote about the lack of connection between "enlightenment" and being a well integrated and balanced personality. You simply cannot assume one leads to the other. I think that people have not really understood this well. Her believe is that the training should perhaps incorporate some work that would address this issue.
This is fascinating.
Wondering aloud: What then is its promise?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 02:30 PM   #455
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post

Not only does an Aikido teacher get NO training in ethics, transference, etc in preparation for being in his or her exalted position (as any doctor, lawyer, mental health practitioner or other professional, even a massage therapist) but often, the roles models upon whom he might base his behavior were bad. Ellis Amdur writes about this in his book Dueling with O-Sensei at length.
George:

A teacher's conference/seminar would be a wonderful idea that could emerge from this topic. Teaching methodologies, technical classes and other areas could be offered along with classes in ethical responsibilities and conduct as a teacher of martial arts. States, including New York State, have come close to licensing martial arts instructors because of patterns of misconduct, unethical, illegal and immoral behaviors. It is a shame that we do not do a better job at educating and monitoring the teachers within our arts.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 04:13 PM   #456
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
This is fascinating.
Wondering aloud: What then is its promise?
I would argue that true enlightenment is having a balanced and integrated personality, and if you don't have the latter, you don't have the former. With the further caveat that "enlightenment" is not a switch that gets turned on at one singular point, but a continual process until death.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 04:24 PM   #457
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,215
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
George:

A teacher's conference/seminar would be a wonderful idea that could emerge from this topic. Teaching methodologies, technical classes and other areas could be offered along with classes in ethical responsibilities and conduct as a teacher of martial arts. States, including New York State, have come close to licensing martial arts instructors because of patterns of misconduct, unethical, illegal and immoral behaviors. It is a shame that we do not do a better job at educating and monitoring the teachers within our arts.

Marc Abrams
Ahh, legislating ethics and morality huh? Not usually effective. Mostly, those kinds of things can only be affected at a grassroots level, I think.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 04:24 PM   #458
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,497
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
George:

A teacher's conference/seminar would be a wonderful idea that could emerge from this topic. Teaching methodologies, technical classes and other areas could be offered along with classes in ethical responsibilities and conduct as a teacher of martial arts. States, including New York State, have come close to licensing martial arts instructors because of patterns of misconduct, unethical, illegal and immoral behaviors. It is a shame that we do not do a better job at educating and monitoring the teachers within our arts.

Marc Abrams
The very sort of thing that would be best run by trained Psychologists (subtly looking your way). And I hear Mr. Amdur has some experience in this as well... Hmmmm.... (cough). Nudge, nudge, know what I mean?

Yes, something like that would be a marvelous thing to come from something so ugly.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2010, 06:07 PM   #459
Pat Togher
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Ahh, legislating ethics and morality huh? Not usually effective. Mostly, those kinds of things can only be affected at a grassroots level, I think.
Actually, we do this all the time. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers, and many other professions are licensed and regulated. Professional ethics is a component of at least some of these licensures. Professional licensure may not catch all the bad apples, but at least there is some mechanism for getting rid of them if they are caught. It's better than having no dog at all watching the sheep.

Pat
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 04:36 AM   #460
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
People need to look at their teachers for what they are and no more. Don't assume that just because the person has mastered a certain degree of technical proficiency, this has much bearing at all on his proficiency at being a human being. Don't assume that just because the teacher is a fantastic human being, their Aikido is very good. Technical expertise does not in any way equate to wisdom nor does wisdom necessarily infer technical expertise. Only occasionally do we find a teacher who has both.
I give you the "FaceBook" thumbs up...

- dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 05:36 AM   #461
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,215
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Pat Togher wrote: View Post
Actually, we do this all the time. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers, and many other professions are licensed and regulated. Professional ethics is a component of at least some of these licensures. Professional licensure may not catch all the bad apples, but at least there is some mechanism for getting rid of them if they are caught. It's better than having no dog at all watching the sheep.

Pat
i thought that's what aikiweb was for.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 02:55 PM   #462
Larry Feldman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Dojo: Atlanta School of Aikido
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 328
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

It never ceases to amaze me that people think because I can teach them to do shihonage, that I am qualified to advise them on any number of life issues...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 03:34 PM   #463
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,215
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Larry Feldman wrote: View Post
It never ceases to amaze me that people think because I can teach them to do shihonage, that I am qualified to advise them on any number of life issues...
Excellent point Larry.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 04:55 PM   #464
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,497
United_States
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Larry Feldman wrote: View Post
It never ceases to amaze me that people think because I can teach them to do shihonage, that I am qualified to advise them on any number of life issues...
Which is a problem faced by most people in a teaching relationship because the reality is that some *do* think that way. Some will idolize you. Some will also respect you. And maybe someone might even think they're falling in love with you. Of course you may or may not deserve these things. Sometimes it is the very nature of the teaching relationship, a person of ability, doing "amazing" things, being "strong", doing whatever that thing is that is the attraction. The very teaching situation creates a relationship of sorts. One of teacher/student. One of hierarchy. Which can be abused. Or can itself create complications.

So from your "amazes me" comment I'd assume that means you have noticed that it happens regardless of our wishes. That doesn't mean you have to become their therapist, but it might help to know how to deal with that clingy student. Or the student whose infatuation is growing. Or the type of situation where what psych folk call counter transference occurs... There is a reason why most professions require their "professionals" to have some training in those areas. Because it happens.

Teachers of adults, well, I really don't have much of an issue there. If everyone in the room is a grown up by all means do whatever you want. Not the best idea IMHO (I've seen infatuations turn into romances that turned into freaking ugly situations with adults as well in this area), but whatever floats your boat. If everyone is an adult, fine, such is life.

But if you teach children and/or teenagers it might be a good idea to have some idea of how these things happen and how to deal with them if they do.

Or we could just focus on prosecuting the folk who cross the line after the fact and say that's the best we can do.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 05:33 PM   #465
Pat Togher
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Wink Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
i thought that's what aikiweb was for.
Indeed

Pat
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 09:52 AM   #466
yankeechick
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
Offline
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

As a result of this incident and an incident with Stephen Toyoda, my school drafted a tight policy as well. Parents are actually given a copy of the policy so that they are aware that this policy is in place to protect both the children and the instructors.

I conduct psychological evaluations for the courts on a full-time basis. I was particularly disturbed by the characterization and findings of the evaluating psychologist that Mr. George was being "immature" and used the relationship with a minor to prop up his "self-esteem." Heck, I have no problem and actually enjoy acting "immature" with my friends without having low self-esteem or the desire to engage in such a grossly inappropriate type of relationship. That is a FAR CRY from engaging in the kind of conduct that he engaged in. How is it that a husband and father, who served as a representative for some organizations and was held in high esteem by the Aikido community (in general) needed to have a relationship with a minor in order to build up his self-esteem?

As you correctly noted, this girl was not some "mature", "older-looking" 17 year old girl. This was a 13 year old girl who had been in his school training under him for a while. We simply need to speak to any 13 year old child and note the gross disparity in maturity between us and any child of that age. Calling somebody "immature" and in need of propping up their self-esteem is simply a cop-out in my book that minimizes the truly pathological nature of his actions.

There are numerous people who deserve some real healing as a result of this incident. I for one, would not want Mr. George to be around ANY girls without appropriate "mature" supervision. Recidivism is high because of the entrenched psychopathology that typically underlies these types of behaviors. Simply "growing-up" and becoming "mature" will not minimize the danger of him engaging in this type of conduct again.

Marc Abrams
I totally agree. This is a case of pedophilia, in my opinion. It seems to me that the over-arching issue here, is how to "regulate" instructor behavior, such that students (in this case chilren) are not abused, violated and preyed upon. Some couple of weeks ago, I posted some questions about a student's concern about unwanted (and possibly) inappropriate sexual attention for an adult.

While an adult is a different issue, the overall issue about putting boundaries around instructor behavior is the same. In this case, the lack thereof, resulted in a criminal behavior and permanent psychological (and emotional) damage to a child. People want to be "non-judgmental" and "even-handed" to the offender, so to speak. However, when one witnesses the damage done to the victim - there are only the facts to contend with.

To respect Jun's request that this be specifically related to aikido, I'll offer this:

One of the major promotional points about aikido, is that it says to protect all involved from what I'll call negative aggressive activities. Also, that aikido is supposed to foster some tiye of beneficent spiritual character or enlightenment, etc. that cannot happen without an HONEST and full discussion about the mindsets, behaviors, disfunctions of the people (in general) and accountability in the dojo.

As a children's sports coach and mentor, this man should NEVER AGAIN be alone with a child. He is a pedophile, period. I believe this protects them both, although my primary consideration is for the child.

In all dojos there should be no less than two "mature" adults (a man and a woman), in the dojo when teaching minors (I'll broaden the age range to include teenagers).

My opinion is a rather strong one, I know. But I've seen the damage these things cause, I've seen how offenders get off because people are simpathetic to them, more than the victim; and the set of circumstances that arose to provide the opportunity for this behavior is NOT corrected.

Too often damaging behavior is not sufficiently dealt with in the dojo (or life situations, if one wants to take it in that direction) because the person is liked or popular, he or she is "a good guy/girl", he or she teaches great techniques, therefore this must be a singular incident. This sets the stage for more damage.

Last edited by yankeechick : 01-16-2010 at 10:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Round Earth Pubs - Book: "Aikido Exercises for Teaching and Training"



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
George Ledyard Sensei in San Antonio Oct. 13-15, 2006 AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 09-24-2006 10:17 PM
Seminar with Sensei Clint George Brad Pruitt Seminars 2 08-05-2006 02:26 PM
AikiWeb Front Page News AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 04-26-2006 11:12 AM
New Sword DVD Set from George Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 08-24-2005 04:45 PM
Review: George Ledyard Seminar at Shindai AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 06-22-2005 05:17 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:33 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate