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Old 10-02-2008, 12:33 AM   #376
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Yeah, but I'd still be Jen and gosh that would be confusing...
A little help. Anyone?

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 10-02-2008 at 12:36 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 10-02-2008, 04:50 AM   #377
Mark Uttech
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Onegaishimasu. Confusion is not always bad. It means an encounter with some new situation.

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 10-06-2008, 09:35 AM   #378
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
There will always be sheep. There will always be wolves. There will always be sheep dogs. Which are you?
The shepherd

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:43 PM   #379
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Clint George did not have an angry ex girlfriend. He had a wonderful wife and children that he has destroyed as well as the victim. There is absolutely no justification for his behavior. It makes me really sick to my stomach to read people write about young girls in other countries marrying when they are underage. We do not live in a third world country. He is a 49 year old grown man and she was 11 when she started aikido classes. He was a wonderful teacher and touched many people's lives, including my own and our family. He also has torn them apart and there is no going back. No excuses. Men are not legally or morally supposed to be with underage children in this country. My 13 year old took private lessons from him and I was very scared that something may have happened. He is very lucky it did not. Please stop with the justifications and the excuses. He is human, but what he did was completely and utterly wrong. He lost everything in his life and then did it AGAIN. He is a sick person.

L\

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote: View Post
Thank you , Mary.
I agree that we tend to jump to conclusions when dealing with this type of discussion because it hits so close to home with so many of us. I am a father. It brings tears to my eyes to think of these things because I know how I would feel if it were my child this was happening to. I have seen the effects of sexual abuse in two very close members of my family. It changes people sometimes to the point that they can no longer function in a real, trusting interpersonal relationship with another human being. It can literally steal someones life by crippling every relationship they have or will ever have. And in my mind ranks it right up there with murder. I also agree that it is nonsense to say that a 13 year old girl can be even partially responsible for something like this taking place. To argue that line of thinking is like trusting someone to train your dog, learning that while under the care of this person he died from severe organ failure caused by the ingestion of antifreeze, finding out that he was purposely and methodically poisoned and then blaming the dog for drinking the antifreeze. A child is not equipped to decide for themselves whether or not to enter into a sexual relationship with anyone any more than a dog is capable of knowing that antifreeze will kill him. So, horse hockey.

When I said that Mr. George could very well be the victim it was not meant to imply that any of the blame be placed on the young lady involved. What I meant was that we have so little knowledge about what actually happened that, for all we know, this could have been started by the girl's uncle who just so happened to be a local law enforcement officer who, also happened to be the ex-husband of George's present girlfriend, who being bitter about the details of his divorce decided to abuse his authority to get back at his ex and Mr. George by fabricating a story of alleged abuse of his position in the dojo to have an inappropriate relationship with one of his underage students. I doubt that I am even close to what really happened but then again no one really knows.

I'm with Mary on this guys. As many people have noted here, whether he did it or not, his life as he knew it will never be the same and I'm betting for the worse. I'm sure we can all see how devastating something like this is to someone's life; guilty or not. How would you feel if you knew that the majority of the Aikido community were reading a thread about an article in the newspaper accusing you of some heinous crime and being powerless to tell your side - especially if you were innocent! I'm glad its not me and I don't mean that in a malicious way.

I am really interested though, to hear more of everyone's thoughts on this. Specifically, how to guard our children from predators and more literature on the subject. Thank you all for the input.
Jason
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:32 AM   #380
Marc Kupper
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Clint George gets a 20-year sentence, with 15 of those years suspended, on charges of felony sexual assault for inappropriately touching a 13-year old former student at the Aikido studio he owned in Helena. http://www.helenair.com/articles/200...023_aikido.txt and also a much larger article with pictures at http://www.helenair.com/articles/200...024_aikido.txt

Last edited by Marc Kupper : 10-24-2008 at 02:36 AM. Reason: Found Friday article had already been posted
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Old 10-24-2008, 08:45 AM   #381
aikidoc
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Sad destruction of one's life.
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:31 AM   #382
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Sad destruction of one's life.
No, John.

Consider The Shawshank Redemption.

Best,

PAG

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Old 10-24-2008, 02:04 PM   #383
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

What is really sad is not that he destroyed his own life, but that he has irrevocably damaged the lives of innocent people and their families. Adding insult to injury is the suspension of 15 years of the sentence.

Robert Cronin
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:22 PM   #384
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Well I guess the court and other support his type of "love."

It shames me to be an Aikidoka.
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Old 10-25-2008, 02:48 AM   #385
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Phillip- Maybe you are ashamed to be a human being also???
It is just weird to me that you would say because of what Clint has done, that you are now ashamed to be an aikidoka.

I have not read every single post of this thread, but have gotten a good feel of the majority of the feelings here.
What comes to mind is that classic Bible story that is played around Easter or Christmas on TV and I guess also in the scene from the movie The Last Temptation of Christ, where the townspeople are throwing rocks at the prostitute and Jesus steps up to defend her...And asks if all the rock throwers are so perfect and never done anything wrong in their lives?
I am not wanting to make excuses for Clint's actions but in no way also feel I know all the facts of the story to even try to judge him. I have met Clint and taken seminars with him and have always respected and admired him for who he was and what he had accomplished in life as an aikidoist spending alot of time in Japan.
He made a mistake, had wrong judgement yada yada yada...Who are we to pass judgment on him? I am sure he is going thru his own process and it must be hell.
One of the important messages that I think aikido is about is polishing one's own stone and concentrating on one's own life and how to perfect it, make it better, making the world better.
One of my pet peeves on the mat is when partners I am practicing with, feel the need to correct me instead of just concentrating on their own practice and allowing me to explore or be with whatever I am working on and thru.
Is this like a western male ego phenomenon??? (Sorry, usually it is a male who feels the need to correct.)
My very first aikido teacher was Sensei Katsuharu Nakazono in Santa Fe, NM in the 80s and he made it very clear that students were not to correct each other on the mat, because he was the sensei and teacher and also the possibility that you did not even know the 'correct' way and would thus be showing someone it the wrong way. Basically, concentrate and pay attn. to your own stuff, not on other's mistakes or your interpretation of. Or just don't interfere with their process.
Anyways, back to Clint and to tie my male ego mat story to my point about Clint....Who Made Us The Judge? Are our lives so perfect and proud that we can judge him?
I am amazed how many people have cast judgment on him. Yeah, he should of known better or he was the adult or he abused his teacher status...
Yes, agreed but we are all humans and make mistakes. Mistakes happen and we hopefully learn from them.
Is there someone here, who can say that they never did anything horribly wrong that they wished they could of taken back? Anyone with no regrets, zero mistakes in their past, anyone truly perfect and on their way to becoming a God?
Hey, even Gurus falter, afterall they are human too.
My opinion has not changed about Clint since this incident. What has upset me is how so many people condemn him and liken him to a predator now. I question whether the true sense or philosophy of aikido is really grasped at all.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:43 AM   #386
Charles Hill
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi Loni,

First of all, I basically agree with most of what you wrote.

With that in mind, with all due respect to you, are you not judging others here?

Also, a court of law has decided that yes, Mr. George is a sexual predator. He will now have that label the rest of his life. He will have to register with local law enforcement anytime he moves into a new area and his name will be made available to the local citizens. This was likely all taken into consideration by that court of law. Do you think the "system" has failed Mr. George?

In the early 90's I contemplated moving to Shingu to train and asked around about it. The consistent response I got was that Clint George is a standup guy, a wonderful person. I, too, think the Biblical story is appropriate. I also see that a court of law decided that Mr. George made some very bad decisions and worries that he is capable of making them again.

sincerely
Charles
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:23 AM   #387
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I hope Clint writes a book.
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:27 AM   #388
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Robert Cronin wrote: View Post
What is really sad is not that he destroyed his own life, but that he has irrevocably damaged the lives of innocent people and their families. Adding insult to injury is the suspension of 15 years of the sentence.
I think that probably happened as a result of him cooperating with law enforcement officials.
He still has a life sentence as a "sexual predator" in the eye of the public though.
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:38 AM   #389
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I am ashamed of that fact that now the court has slapped him on the wrist. Why do we have such laws that are suppose to protect children? But yet a shoplifter who steals clothing or food doesn't go to rehab, they go to jail. Like the 80+ year old lady who keep a football thrown in her yard gets arrested and thrown in jail. Or the 7 year old child who pushed another kid on the play ground gets arrested and is convicted of assault and battery. Yet a 50+ year old man who is a child molester gets nothing more than a finger shook at him.

He is a well know Aikidoka, who was convicted of a crime, and darn nears walk out free. Should I jump up and down in joy, like those in the Michael Jackson case? O'Sensei when he talked about love, I doubt very much he meant that criminals should go with out being punished properly.

Lest we forget O'Sensei was Japanese in Japan. He was not a hippy smoking dope and having "love ins" rebelling against the 1950's social structure of the American way of life on Height and Height. He was a martial artist, in mist of a Japanese social change, he was not a Yukio Mishima visionary; that is what O'Sensei was trying to change, and not the America.

He used Aikido in a shameful and disgusting way to exercise his crime against a child. He abuse Aikido as well. Because of his position, he high level profile and involvement in Aikido he puts a stink now on Aikido. Aikido isn't about a place where child molestation is acceptable, O'Sensei's idea of love about child molestation. I am not proud that someone has done such things, this isn't why I started Aikido. I don't not want to be associated with such a disgusting crime or in any way show my approval. Or support the court turning a blind eye.

Btw, you don't think Clint George will try and resume this relationship any chance he gets...until she is "too old that is." Then it will be someone else's child?
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:38 AM   #390
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I really don't know Clint personally and I really don't know what happened? I am speechless and I don't know what to say.

"For The Secret That The Warrior Seeks: You Must Know That The Basic Principles Lie In The Study Of The Spirit." - Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:46 PM   #391
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
O'Sensei's idea of love about child molestation.
O'Sensei's idea of love isn't about child molestation. Is what I meant.

It seems there are enablers in this case, including the court. I want to make clear that I am not an enabler. My sympathies go out to the victim, the victim's family, the people in Clint's life that had no idea what was going on. The Aikidoka that looked up to him and had no idea what he was hiding.

He is clearly sick, and needs professional help, but he also needs to serve a good amount of time for his crime- maybe not the maximum sentence.

By serving time it is letting him and others know society doesn't tolerate his actions. That society (at least in theory should) protects its children.

Love is protecting kids for harm and from predators. Love is being honest in your marriage and to your kids. Love is being honest to your friends and those who look up to you. Love doesn't mean having an inappropriate relationship between a 50+ year old man and a 13 year old girl calling it love. Why isn't these things associated to love when Aikido love is talked about?

Last edited by Buck : 10-25-2008 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:47 PM   #392
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
With that in mind, with all due respect to you, are you not judging others here?
Stepping into the muck with you and showing you the way out? That's a tenkan.

Standing on the side of the tar pit and yelling, "Hey! Look at yourself! You're late for practice!!" hoping you'll pull yourself out? That's an irimi.

AikiWeb, a dojo constrained to using words, seems to have a natural preference for the verbose tenkan as well as an aversion for the succinct irimi.

Quote:
Also, a court of law has decided that yes, Mr. George is a sexual predator. [...] I also see that a court of law decided that Mr. George made some very bad decisions and worries that he is capable of making them again.
Quote:
News Release wrote:
Clinten Jay George, who was 49 at the time of the incident was designated a "tier one" sex offender, meaning that he is considered unlikely to reoffend.
"Offender," not "predator." Wasn't there something in the more detailed news releases saying that the fellow does not display predatory or pedophilial tendencies?

Words are powerful things. Use them with care.

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Old 10-25-2008, 07:01 PM   #393
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post

"Offender," not "predator." Wasn't there something in the more detailed news releases saying that the fellow does not display predatory or pedophilial tendencies?

Words are powerful things. Use them with care.
Yes, words are very powerful, they can take something very serious and make it sound if it was really nothing at all, the art of double speak comes to mind. For the best example of this, that I can think of is Journalism. Many professions have double speak such as corporate moguls trying to explain themselves under testimony why they ruined the economy. And the Micheal Jackson interviews.

Yes, words are very powerful, they can make a horrible act like child molestation and make it sound so romantically innocent to persuade others it is a normal thing and nothing wrong happened. eventhough it also is intended to discredit and dehumanize the victims. Thus, allowing evil (no religious connotations*) people to escape blame and responsiblity for their unlawful actions. Like the Micheal Jackson interviews and his trial, and all his enabling supporters.

*someone will jump on it am sure.


No one can persuade me that Clint George didn't commit a crime and got a finger wagged at him for it. Or that there are enablers out there supporting him because he was well known in the Aikido community. If anyone should be supported besides the victim, (in double speak the "incontinent ordnance", the "collateral damage.") is his wife and family. See how that double speak works.

Last edited by Buck : 10-25-2008 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 10-25-2008, 09:05 PM   #394
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
No one can persuade me that Clint George didn't commit a crime and got a finger wagged at him for it. Or that there are enablers out there supporting him because he was well known in the Aikido community. If anyone should be supported besides the victim, (in double speak the "incontinent ordnance", the "collateral damage.") is his wife and family. See how that double speak works.
I do not know what is and what is not true in this case.

I do not know what led to the situation, I do not know what went into the judgment, and I do not know what will come from it all.

No belief to defend. No agenda to drive me. No need to raise images of Michael Jackson, corporate moguls destroying the economy, collateral damage, or anything else to make a point. Life is easier this way.

Try it. Or, don't.

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Old 10-25-2008, 11:21 PM   #395
Charles Hill
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
No belief to defend. No agenda to drive me. No need to raise images of Michael Jackson, corporate moguls destroying the economy, collateral damage, or anything else to make a point. Life is easier this way..
And yet you post here. Was there no belief, no agenda compelling you to post?

The court saw fit to sentence Mr. George. How could that be if those involved thought he was unlikely to reoffend?

What is your definition of "predator" vs. "offender"? Not a newspaper reporters definition, yours.

Personally, I find your use of metaphors, nominalizations, personifications, sentences without clear subjects and objects seems to rob your words of any power. But then again, I am not even sure to whom you are addressing. (How's that for a verbose tenkan!)

Charles

Last edited by Charles Hill : 10-25-2008 at 11:21 PM. Reason: fixed a grammar mistake
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:39 AM   #396
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
And yet you post here. Was there no belief, no agenda compelling you to post?
I breathe without an agenda, too.

Quote:
The court saw fit to sentence Mr. George. How could that be if those involved thought he was unlikely to reoffend?
Mr. George did what he did. The court did what it did. I do not know the mind of either, so why ask me?

Quote:
What is your definition of "predator" vs. "offender"? Not a newspaper reporters definition, yours.
These are legal and psychological terms; they are not defined by me. The legal system classified the man as a sex offender, and, if I recall correctly, a psychiatrist or a psychologist involved in the sentencing decision noted that the man was likely neither a predator nor a pedophile. These items were recorded by a reporter and published by a newspaper. I'm sure you can find the references if you find these matters are important to you.

Quote:
Personally, I find your use of metaphors, nominalizations, personifications, sentences without clear subjects and objects seems to rob your words of any power. But then again, I am not even sure to whom you are addressing.
Quote:
Carly Simon wrote:
You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you.
By the way, your sentence, "But then again, I am not even sure to whom you are addressing," has a grammatical mistake.


Quote:
(How's that for a verbose tenkan!)
Verbose---alas, no tenkan.

Last edited by Joe McParland : 10-26-2008 at 12:47 AM. Reason: Pointing out a gramatical error.

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Old 10-26-2008, 11:44 AM   #397
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

It is evident with the sentencing of Clint George, a once illustrious Aikidoka who has been convicted of a crime against a child, has now fallen into infamy. It was something that has shocked, saddened and heart-breaking for a ton of people. A distressing thing that let down so many because he wasn't what he said he was at all. He lied and hid his illness to so many that loved, liked and trusted him. His selfish immoral actions go beyond the minor errors and ills experienced by most.

Despite my objections to his sentencing-I think is far too light for his crime-there really is no need to continue on with this thread.

Maybe a new thread should be started about his criminal sentence, rehab and other disputes.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:13 PM   #398
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
A distressing thing that let down so many because he wasn't what he said he was at all.
Is it that he is not what he said he was---assuming, for the sake of argument, that he ever made such a statement---or is it that you believed he was something other than he was?

This is a simple question. To some it relates directly to a core objective of aikido training: masakatsu agatsu.

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Old 10-26-2008, 02:19 PM   #399
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

The best, what we can do, is to stop to talk about the case, and forget the person forever. It was a very similar case, a view years ago, than a very known instructor intentionally hurt his partner during a public event.
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Old 10-26-2008, 04:09 PM   #400
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hmm .. I am sorry. "A few years ago", of course.
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