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Old 09-29-2008, 09:00 PM   #351
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I am not sure here, is the concern of potential mass hysteria out weighing a crime? Are we more concerned about the potential of mass hysteria than the crime Clint George pleaded guilty too?

I don't see mass hysteria going on with the crime he committed! I don't see any of the things that seem to be scaring people in looking the other way out of fear they might be accused. From what I know only Clint George was accused which he plead guilty. The law didn't accuse anyone else, or invade anyone else's privacy, or a Janet Reno full court press witch hunt.

The case has moved on, it is at the point where Clint George has plead guiltily. I really think we are past that Janet Reno thing, and I don't think reviving it is realistic in this matter. I also think it is wrong to imply what happens in one instance to one person is ia global catastrophe that will effect everyone. I think we watch and take the news too seriously and have been condition by them as they scare us with huge doses of over-sensationalism and hyper-exaggeration just to get our attention so we will listen to them -this is the real mass-hysteria and not the instance Ricky Wood talked about concerning the fear everyone will be accused.

An actual news teaser, " Man dies of natural causes in accident, a killer is on the loose, don't be next. Watch super new xx." .

Clint George being caught and pleading guilty has had no Janet Reno witch hunt, no mass media attention, or all the other things that would incite any type of mass-hysteria that seems to be a concern. What it has done is taken off the rose colored glassed, it has been a dose of old water reality, and shown a need for everyone to be vigilant at all times to insure, if you are going to work with children in Aikido, or allow your children to take an Aikido class, that a child isn't abused by anyone in the class. That isn't mass-hysteria, that is common sense, it is putting the word out, it is putting a stop to the "See no evil, ear no evil and speak no evil." in the dojo. And you do this, for example, by not ever allowing a child student to ever be alone at anytime with an adult student or sensei. In addition to putting down standards and rules for the the whole dojo, and the dojo and parents to follows and enforce them. No matter who that person is.

I have and still am against teaching kids Aikido. The situation we are discussing is my number one reason against teaching kids Aikido or any martial art for that.

Again I want to keep things in perspective, there isn't and wasn't any mass-hysteria or a Janet Reno full court press witch hunt of any kind, nor mass media hype coverage giving cause for panic (just one article in a local paper. I think this is the only board that is discussing Clint George) to give anyone any cause to be concerned that anyone one else other than Clint George was accused when Clint George was being accused. This concern in Aikido with Clint George is by no way even close to the issue in the Catholic Church. Let's not say it is. But I am sure some can argue fringe parallels in terms of ignoring the issue, maybe.

No need to be hyper-sensitive or concerned and creating something that isn't or will not happen; mass-hysteria or witch hunt. We are past that phase now as Clint George has plead guilty. The next phase of this disturbing news is the details of the trial, sentencing, and how it will effect those who teach Aikido to kids (if any, that is the bread and butter I feel so many people feel the need to protect. And that should also be equally disturbing ).

Last edited by Buck : 09-29-2008 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:35 PM   #352
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Are parents who take their kids from event to event (one of which Aikido) are to blame? That shouldn't even be an issue we should not shift the blame. I don't think shifting the blame from Clint George and on to parents who shuttle their kids to events is part of the situation. Why wouldn't parents assume a trust with their kids, Aikido is kid friendly. Aikido is the art of peace and love, and not about violence. So bringing in parents is something that shouldn't even come into play when discussing the Clint George situation. Let's not shift the blame off of Clint George and on to parents who are told near and far Aikido is kid friendly, and kid safe.

Honestly, parents should never have to worried about people like Clint George. If you want to put a blame on someone it should be on the society that we all elected to build, For example the movie, "Towelhead." There are reasons for taboos, and some that should never be played to us to wear down our stands against such things making them taboo, no matter what. What something to blame, blame those who want to wear down the resistance to things that are unacceptable main stream behaviors i.e. taboos (such as pedophilia) to make them acceptable behavior via entertainment.

Here again Clint George's actions are disturbing. Not that some parents shuttle their kids robotically from venue to venue, it isn't distrubing news and shouldn't be.

Last edited by Buck : 09-29-2008 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:15 PM   #353
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Many readers might think I was directing my comments at Marc's comments in his post. I was rather spring boarding from Marc's comments. After reading Marc's comments, and what seems almost automatic in many situations where children are involved the parents become scape goats and some of the blame from a perp is sluffed off on to all parents for global bad parenting of parents.

I wanted to point that Aikido because of it's tenets of love, peace, anti-violence appeals to parents who want something active for their kids. I agree with Marc some of those parents use Aikido as a baby sitting service. Though I don't think parents no being involved and watching their kids should have to worry about their kid being abused or harmed. Nor take any blame for abuse or harm just because they are not as involved as they should be. This is different then those parents who offer their kids to the likes of Wacko Jacko. Or those who ignore their kids completely, emotionally, etc.

The 13 year old girl parents if any are to share blame of serious neglect. But even so, they should not be blamed for the action of the dysfunction of Clint George. Again, I don't think they offered their child up to Clint George. Yet, if they did, then they are to blame to what happened to their child. But that is as far as it should go in scope. My point is once again indicating there is no witch hunt or mass hysteria. Unless it is started by someone who take the blame off of Clint George and places it on all parents.

Aikido shouldn't teach kids, as it was once done. This would eliminate Aikido as a baby sitting service, all the ills of bad parenting, evils against children, and attract those who would do harm to children.
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:24 PM   #354
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Actually is you follow policy and procedure such as the Boy Scouts of America developed, it pretty much protects both the adults running the program and the kids.

Heck even in the Army Training Commands, we have pretty good guidelines to ensure you are not put in a awkward situation with students.

You can choose to blame whom ever you want, and list all the would of should of stuff..... but at some point, the guy that actually committed the act is responsible....period.

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Old 09-30-2008, 06:37 AM   #355
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Are parents who take their kids from event to event (one of which Aikido) are to blame? That shouldn't even be an issue we should not shift the blame. I don't think shifting the blame from Clint George and on to parents who shuttle their kids to events is part of the situation. Why wouldn't parents assume a trust with their kids, Aikido is kid friendly. Aikido is the art of peace and love, and not about violence. So bringing in parents is something that shouldn't even come into play when discussing the Clint George situation. Let's not shift the blame off of Clint George and on to parents who are told near and far Aikido is kid friendly, and kid safe.

Honestly, parents should never have to worried about people like Clint George. If you want to put a blame on someone it should be on the society that we all elected to build, For example the movie, "Towelhead." There are reasons for taboos, and some that should never be played to us to wear down our stands against such things making them taboo, no matter what. What something to blame, blame those who want to wear down the resistance to things that are unacceptable main stream behaviors i.e. taboos (such as pedophilia) to make them acceptable behavior via entertainment.

Here again Clint George's actions are disturbing. Not that some parents shuttle their kids robotically from venue to venue, it isn't distrubing news and shouldn't be.
Hi Philip:
Have you ever parented a 13 year old girl?
Mary
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:13 AM   #356
Marc Abrams
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Phillip:

I am sorry that you have mistaken what I said for blaming parents. We grew up in times where children were left in carriages outside of grocery stores. I would hitchhike to town when I was 9 y/o.

The sad reality is that it is a very different world. Parents are the guardians of the next generation. Common sense guardianship and involvement are needed today to help our children navigate our society while growing up to be responsible members of the next generation. There are real dangers out there that we cannot yet preventively identify. This should lead us to take common sense precautions. I do strongly disagree with you regarding teaching children Aikido. I see this as a venue to make a meaningful contribution towards raising children who can handle potential conflicts without having to resort to a win-lose paradigm.

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:09 AM   #357
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I would encourage anyone who does not believe in teaching aikido to children to do exactly that. Don't do it. They would know you weren't sincere anyway and it would not be a constructive relationship. I do teach youth and enjoy it very much. There is nothing like seeing a grandfather roll with his grandson on the mat. The bonding that takes place in that kind of interaction is very powerful and beneficial. I am a strong advocate of having parents participate in class, no matter how small their role. If they can't participate, they should at least stay and watch.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:58 AM   #358
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

IMHO, its not about mass hysteria or paranoia, its about mass ignorance. Too many people are using diagnostic terms for something and someone they know nothing about. When you get into the personality disorders, it a hard call because often they are the ones who do the job the best. Unfortunately, they also don't think the lines apply to them. So well meaning organizations, parents, and society can have everything in place and these people will waltz through and do what they want, without conscience.

Its not about the child, the parents, the organization, or the society. Its about them. They are the one who committed the crime. They are the one's responsible. Explanation are not excuses.

I am glad that many people have a strong reaction to crimes against children/minors. IMHO, that proves some level of health. Compliments for being willing to have these conversations. Yet, it may be more fruitful to get away from the personality and onto the issues of training and living in loving protection.

There will always be sheep. There will always be wolves. There will always be sheep dogs. Which are you?

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:06 AM   #359
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post

There will always be sheep. There will always be wolves. There will always be sheep dogs. Which are you?
A sleepy dog who needs a shepherd called aikido, not 'Master'.

The art is pure, people are flawed, let's remember that order for the exact purpose of loving protection.Perhaps as Lynn said so beautifully above.

I don't have the answers here, for sure. Maybe the lessons of triangle, circle, square can be helpful:
Parents and children and teachers enter the dojo, (triangle), we look to common practice for wellness ( circle), structure our techniques of protection well ( square).

I hope everyone heals well from this.

Best for now,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-30-2008 at 11:14 AM.

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Old 09-30-2008, 11:12 AM   #360
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
...Aikido shouldn't teach kids, as it was once done. This would eliminate Aikido as a baby sitting service, all the ills of bad parenting, evils against children, and attract those who would do harm to children.
I'm sorry, that's just silly. Tossing out the baby with the bathwater as they say.

We have a robust, fun kids program. Heck, we had a class last week with 20 kids rolling around. Tons of kid energy. And since I get to teach the advanced kids (i.e., the ones who've come up through our kids program who are now pushing into and in the teenage years) I get to see exactly what the benefits are. Confident kids who have an intuitive grasp of body mechanics, movement, balance, etc. The power these kids can generate when they want to is incredible. And ideally we've added tools to their toolbox for dealing with confrontations and stresses of daily life that are a bit more nuanced than fight or flight.

I am a firm believer of Santayana's comment about learning from history. We must acknowledge, discuss and understand what has happened. And work to tweak and improve how we do things to ensure we're doing things right. Learn from the mistakes made. Identify the vulnerabilities. Then make sure those things are being actively addressed in your own sphere of influence. There needs to be a balance struck between shrieking and the wringing of hands on one side and the shoving of one's head even deeper into the sand.

Fudo-Myoo. Instructors are necessarily both teachers and protectors. We have both obligations. And we all need to live up to that higher standard.

So I very much like Lynn's analogy. I've often commented to my wife (who trains and shows herding dogs) that I feel like I'm the border collie in the kid's class. A little bit of protection and a little bit of herding but mostly a watchful eye as they figure it out for themselves...

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Old 09-30-2008, 11:39 AM   #361
Dan Rubin
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
We grew up in times where children were left in carriages outside of grocery stores. I would hitchhike to town when I was 9 y/o.
What caused it to become different today?
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:57 AM   #362
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
What caused it to become different today?
Freedom of movement, cheap gasoline, suburbanization, and the effects of these three elements on geographically compact communities which had dense internal networks of long-standing family, economic, and civic relationships.

And in the latter phases of the process, the personal sound system revolution that started with the Walkman and is now into the iPod phase didn't help either.

Best,

FL
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:08 PM   #363
Dan Rubin
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

So does that mean that there are no more predators today than there ever were, just that in the past it was more difficult for them to ply their trade (or perhaps that they had to keep their activities within the family, literally)? Might it also mean that in the past it was equally taboo to be a predator and a victim, so that such abuse was never reported, and so in the past it was just as dangerous as it is today to leave an unattended baby carriage or for a youngster to hitchhike?

Last edited by Dan Rubin : 09-30-2008 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:05 PM   #364
Marc Abrams
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Dan:

Trying to answer "why" in the past is not where we should be putting our attention (my opinion). Focusing in on how we can make our society a safer, saner, more peaceful place to live in is where I like to focus my attention. Teaching Aikido to people of all ages is just one small contribution that I try to make towards achieving that goal.

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:14 PM   #365
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Phillip:

I am sorry that you have mistaken what I said for blaming parents. I do strongly disagree with you regarding teaching children Aikido. I see this as a venue to make a meaningful contribution towards raising children who can handle potential conflicts without having to resort to a win-lose paradigm.

Marc Abrams
I guess I wasn't really disagreeing with you as much as I was spring boarding to the idea that some might use your post to argue that it is ok to blame all parents and not the perp of such things. Maybe it didn't come-off so well.

Though I do think that by not teaching kids, you eliminate the concern with the points you made about parents. You eliminate the opportunity for those, like Clint George to abuse children, among the risks good people take teaching kids. Teaching kids is a difficult area with allot of potential problems all the way around. I understand the benefits kids might get, but they can get those benefits else where in activities created for kids under professional direction and by those individuals trained professional to teach kids. Where in the proper professional environment all the things needed and the boundaries needed to teach kids are in place and exercised. If that isn't in place the risks to the kids are high, and as a result we are talking about the fall out of those risks.

Those who suspected Clint George and didn't act on it, would have possible acted sooner if professional trained to deal with kids. Aikido really was and is set up for adults. Trying to tweak Aikido to be kid friendly isn't the same as having trained professions in the field of kids. For example, you don't need a license to teach kids like you do if you do for teaching them, or caring for them- i.e. daycare. Any one can open a dojo and teach kids, placing kids a high risk situation. Clint George was well respected and liked in the Aikido community, and thus people trusted him...well we know the rest of the story. Aikido really in all tense and purposes is for adults.

Jen,

I have dated a 13 year old girl...we went bowling with her and her family when I was 13 years old. Well, sadly the relationship only lasted a short time. She moved. Does that count?

I am not sure what you are saying Jen. But, I don't approve of adults getting involved with children, I think it is sick on the adults part. A 13 year old is not fully mature and is highly impressionable, plus all the other things at that point in life. Really, I think that is why we call them children, kids, teenagers.

I don't have kids. I may not understand all the dynamics involved but I think I am smart enough to recognize a situation that shouldn't exist for kids. I don't treat them like adults, I don't let underaged kids drive my car, I recognize when a child is in danger, etc. I am smart enough not to criticize parents too much. Just if the parent hangs their kid over a balcony of a 4 story building. Or leaves them in a car of a bar's parking lot to freeze to death because they when inside for a drink. Or decide to punish them to death. Or, let them play in a street at 5, etc. The obvious major stuff. And enough sense (IMO only) to know Aikido is for adults and not kids, just like driving a car is.

Last edited by Buck : 09-30-2008 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:17 PM   #366
Marc Kupper
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The sad reality is that it is a very different world.
I would disagree with that. I was raised in a large part by a grandmother and so had a "diet" of stories from her generation in the early 1900s, stories from my parents/and their generation (in laws, etc.), the lives of people in my own generation (myself included), and now the childrens' lives. My observation is that the overall awareness and behaviors are relatively unchanged over the past 100, and probably more, years.

I am interested in an earlier comment on this thread
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Actually is you follow policy and procedure such as the Boy Scouts of America developed, it pretty much protects both the adults running the program and the kids.

Heck even in the Army Training Commands, we have pretty good guidelines to ensure you are not put in a awkward situation with students.
Is this the policy/procedure for the Boy Scouts? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_P...ts_of_America)

"Army Training Commands" appears to not be the correct term. Can someone point me to a web site or source for the military guidelines? I suspect these would have less relevance to a dojo setting but knowing the overall guidelines may be of use.

What about public school teachers and others that work with children?

Overall, with one reported incident of serious abuse in a dojo every ten years or more so I don't think drastic changes are needed in how we do things but that having a well known set of guidelines can serve to improve on awareness. With Clint George it seems from the first news article, http://www.helenair.com/articles/200...11_assault.txt, that the system worked. Someone was concerned, contacted a parent who in turn called the police. The guidelines would be there to improve the odds of detecting other Clint Georges and preventing some future occurrences as potential predators would realize the odds are they will get caught and choose to just think about it rather than acting.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:18 PM   #367
Dan Rubin
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Marc (Abrams)

My thought is that it might help us deal with the dangers of the present if we know why circumstances were safer in the past.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:33 PM   #368
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Jen,

I just got done talking to a co-worker about how some 13 year old girls can be "wild" and "confused" to say the least. It can be contributed such actions of a kid can be attributed to the parent(s). I don't think Aikido can fix that. And yes, maybe the parent(s) of the victim can be blamed, maybe. I can't blame them since I know nothing of them, or the personality of the girl. Is this what your getting at?
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:54 PM   #369
Marc Abrams
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Dan:

Post-hoc reasoning always seems to be 20:20... Go figure. Looking at large scale situations results in us trying to parse out the multitude of variable, loading for each variable and the interaction effects.....

We can certainly learn from past events. We are certainly trying to deepen our superficial understanding of human behavior. Our predictive abilities simply stink at this point in time. As I said previous, past behaviors are the single best factor towards predicting future behaviors.

I have survived three adolescents (now 31, 28, & 25- one girl, two boys). I have one adolescent to go (14 y/o boy). I now have a one year old granddaughter. Parenting is a VERY difficult task at best. A lot of the work that needs to go in to preparing our children to handle their own lives needs to have been done before they become teens. You know you have done a good job when a parent comes up to you and says: "I just have to tell you that you have the most polite and respectful teen that I have seen in a long time......" You as the parent, turn and look behind you, thinking that they are talking to somebody else! Your teens typically display that "good" behavior for other adults and save the "best" for you.

Finding a good balance between monitoring your teens behaviors and allowing them to experience the consequences of their choices is a very fine line. The more involved parents during the earlier years typically have a better line of communication with their teens and the monitoring tends to be more effective. This is always an "interesting" feedback loop when dealing with teens emerging sexual identities.

Until our society becomes more mutually aware and protective our those around us, then we as parents are left with a daunting task. The more involved (appropriately so) you are in your child's life, the easier this task will be.

I cannot help but wonder how many classes the parents of the 13 y/o girl watched. I wonder who, if anybody, picked up on the vibes that something did not feel right. These questions are heaped in the bunch of "famous last words" because the damage has been done. Moving forward, I hope that we as teachers and parents remain alert and aware.

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:04 PM   #370
Dan Rubin
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Freedom of movement, cheap gasoline, suburbanization, and the effects of these three elements on geographically compact communities which had dense internal networks of long-standing family, economic, and civic relationships.

And in the latter phases of the process, the personal sound system revolution that started with the Walkman and is now into the iPod phase didn't help either.
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The more involved parents during the earlier years typically have a better line of communication with their teens and the monitoring tends to be more effective.
Fred and Marc

I think that you have answered my questions. Thanks.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:43 PM   #371
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

IMHO, predators and pedophiles have existed throughout history. With the media coverage in the information era, we may just be more aware and informed of it. This is a good things. We are out of denial. We cannot protect ourselves (families and children) from anything we won't admit is there. Always be willing to look evil in the eye. That;s the courage and the discipline.

BTW, most predators (that includes pedophiles) find their marks (victims) through their fears and insecurities. Watch National Geographics, they don't go after the strong ones in the herd.

So what can we do to build stronger more secure children? How can we give them permission to respect and challenge authority?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:35 PM   #372
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Jen,

Let me add after several conversations with co-workers and friends from a variety of backgrounds, countries, ethnicity, economic background etc. from a wide range of parenting styles and beliefs not all 13 year old girls (not that you implied that) are "difficult, or lost souls." Not all parents should be stereotyped for seemingly common actions and behaviors I guess. It is a case by case situation.

I think there is a pocket of society who has lost touch with rasing kids and they run a high risk of their 13 year old daughter running amok-ending up on the Maury Povich Show, or becoming suspectable to criminals with the dysfunction of the likes of Clint George, and others, or living on the streets, etc.

Your not going to tell parents how to raise their kids, I think the focus should be on those who prey on kids, lets not worry so much on what the parents did or didn't do in rasing their kid, that is secondary, lets focus on the primary, on how society doesn't concern its self with those like Clint George as much as it does with paying taxes, or Wall Street.

Hope that answers your question.
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:01 PM   #373
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Jen,

I have dated a 13 year old girl...we went bowling with her and her family when I was 13 years old. Well, sadly the relationship only lasted a short time. She moved. Does that count?

I am not sure what you are saying Jen. But, I don't approve of adults getting involved with children, I think it is sick on the adults part. A 13 year old is not fully mature and is highly impressionable, plus all the other things at that point in life. Really, I think that is why we call them children, kids, teenagers.

I don't have kids. I may not understand all the dynamics involved but I think I am smart enough to recognize a situation that shouldn't exist for kids. I don't treat them like adults, I don't let underaged kids drive my car, I recognize when a child is in danger, etc. I am smart enough not to criticize parents too much. Just if the parent hangs their kid over a balcony of a 4 story building. Or leaves them in a car of a bar's parking lot to freeze to death because they when inside for a drink. Or decide to punish them to death. Or, let them play in a street at 5, etc. The obvious major stuff. And enough sense (IMO only) to know Aikido is for adults and not kids, just like driving a car is.
Buck,
It's time to slow down a little bit.

It is Mary Eastland's post you are reacting to.
And she asked you whether you had Parented a 13 year old , not dated one.


Please read my posts again and respond in a PM if there is something that you still care to discuss.

Jen

.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-30-2008 at 08:09 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:59 PM   #374
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Buck,
It's time to slow down a little bit.

It is Mary Eastland's post you are reacting to.
And she asked you whether you had Parented a 13 year old , not dated one.


Please read my posts again and respond in a PM if there is something that you still care to discuss.

Jen

.
Slow down in scrolling due to all the posts, yes. It's a long thread. I read yours and then Mary's and the rest is history. No, I don't have anything to discuss or repond to your comments. I already mixed you up with Mary once and wagged my finger unjustly at you because I mixed up you and Mary already once. It seems I did it again. I mix up women all the time, it takes only two beers . Sorry.

I wish I could correct the problem, and replace your name with Mary's. But like mixing up two women once that mistake is made there is no way it will ever be fixed. Thanks Jen for bring that to my attention.

Last edited by Buck : 09-30-2008 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:04 AM   #375
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

I wish I could correct the problem, and replace your name with Mary's. But like mixing up two women once that mistake is made there is no way it will ever be fixed.
Yeah, but I'd still be Jen and gosh that would be confusing...

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 10-01-2008 at 11:12 AM.

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