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Old 09-27-2008, 01:41 PM   #326
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Ridiculous.

Don't you both already know not to form inappropriate relationships with minors? Do you need the detailed disposition of this particular man's case to convince you?

You have your periodic and unfortunate reminder not to do bad things. That should be sufficient to keep you sober.
Classy.

Thank you, no, I don't need the reminders. As a matter of fact it is virtually inconceivable to me how it is that these things happen. Which is in part why I *need* to discuss how this stuff happens. I find it hard to believe that they happen both as an instructor of children but also as a father of a daughter. My, god, what a horrible thing to do to a young psyche. I just can't understand how a grown man can do that.

So, Joe, thank you for your insight but I don't need the reminders. Not at all. I find the behavior inconceivable. There has to be a huge disconnect in someone's head to somehow think it is okay to get involved in this way with a 13-14 year old kid. So why then does it happen? And why has it happened *AGAIN*!

It has to be discussed. It has to be understood. It has to be something everyone is cognizant of so they can hopefully act when something seems wrong. I find it inconceivable that someone could do that kind of thing. Which has made me realize that I need to keep my eyes and mind open and learn something otherwise how will I ever notice if it *is* happening somewhere within my sphere of experience? It happening to someone close to me without my noticing is even more terrifying to me.

Mr. Amdur referenced a book earlier which I read (and passed on to some other instructors). Predator or something like that. Scary book, but insightful.

I teach kids. I have a handful in the 14-16 year range who are struggling with that difficult transitional time into young adulthood. And they should not have to deal with this sort of thing and we as a community need to be aware of how insidious these things are and then guard against them.

It has happened before Mr. George. In one famous incident the perpetrator had committed multiple acts of abuse over a long span of time. He'd even been caught multiple times. But because he was so respected and because he was so apologetic each time, each time he was given a pass. And because no one wanted to talk about this uncomfortable topic he went on to abuse many more children over the years.

And here we are now debating yet again whether we should even talk talk about it...

I find having this very debate as difficult to fathom as the abuse of a minor in the first place. How can you not want to bring it into the light, try to understand, then make bloody sure you do everything to guard against it happening again? We as a community don't seem to have a very good track record thus far...

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Old 09-27-2008, 07:47 PM   #327
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Keith,

That was a very impassioned essay. Clearly you spent a good deal of time considering your response and writing it. There is no doubt about your sincerity at all...

But while you spent all of this time recording what harm *could^ befall your daughter, where was she?

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Old 09-27-2008, 11:08 PM   #328
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Extremist always find and use religious philosophies to commit evil. In this case it was Aikido's religious apparatus use to commit evil.
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:21 PM   #329
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Would you LET the DEVIL into your home? A person like that is EVIL beyond words. There is no forgiving. They should be destroyed to prevent further harm.
Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Extremist always find and use religious philosophies to commit evil. In this case it was Aikido's religious apparatus use to commit evil.
What else do extremists think, Salim?

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Old 09-28-2008, 01:08 AM   #330
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Keith,

That was a very impassioned essay. Clearly you spent a good deal of time considering your response and writing it. There is no doubt about your sincerity at all...

But while you spent all of this time recording what harm *could^ befall your daughter, where was she?
Playing Monopoly with my wife in the other room...

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Old 09-28-2008, 01:15 AM   #331
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Aikido preaches love, and I have debated my feelings about that. I don't think O'Sensei when he used the term love, here being a symbol for Aikido's religious system, to have anything to do with this issue. The idea of love should be carefully looked at. It shouldn't go beyond the original intentions( I feel ) for a new social platform that points to a society that is in opposition to the past violent feudal society of the past- where people treat people each other with greater respect, responsibility and reverence. Aikido's idea of love certainly should not apply to Clint George for his behavior. Aikido's idea of love is about rescuing lost kittens from trees, or rescuing lost puppies.

He is a sick individual that must come to terms with his actions and his distortions and all those close to him he has hurt. By doing it shows he has taken responsiblity, he then will acted in love to no longer harm others and work to heal those he hurt. He has not done this, and thus, he should not be afforded any love, but rather the disappointment and anguish of his behaviors. In which he must exercise responsibility to her family, his family and friends as well as those he hurt, those are the ones that love should be focused on.

He choose his path, he must walk it.

Last edited by Buck : 09-28-2008 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:46 AM   #332
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Playing Monopoly with my wife in the other room...
A very good answer. All that could be better is if you were there too instead of responding to me... After all, who am I? I'm just a pile of words on the Internet

My daughter is 11. My son is 8. I teach kids too---homeschoolers, with parents present (and participating). I also was involved in Cub Scouts and had to take related training and abide by a lot of sensible rules around the kids. My wife works with the girl scouts---same thing. I am not unsympathetic to the issues...

I do the best I can as a dad. I do the best I can as the instructor for our club. What more can we reasonably do?

This story, like others, serves best as a cautionary reminder to stay alert when your kids are concerned and to keep an eye on your peers in positions of authority to help them and your organizations stay on the straight and narrow.

Life is simple(r) this way.

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Old 09-28-2008, 02:02 AM   #333
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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A very good answer. All that could be better is if you were there too instead of responding to me... After all, who am I? I'm just a pile of words on the Internet
True, and what does that have to do with the issue at hand other than implying I neglect my daughter. Lovely.

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
My daughter is 11. My son is 8. I teach kids too---homeschoolers, with parents present (and participating). I also was involved in Cub Scouts and had to take related training and abide by a lot of sensible rules around the kids. My wife works with the girl scouts---same thing. I am not unsympathetic to the issues...

I do the best I can as a dad. I do the best I can as the instructor for our club. What more can we reasonably do?
Make sure it doesn't happen. Obviously you've done all you should do and are quite comfortable with it. Cool. However, these sorts of things have happened before and continue to happen. And often right under the noses of others who either are not paying attention or who are choosing to ignore the uncomfortable reality.

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
This story, like others, serves best as a cautionary reminder to stay alert when your kids are concerned and to keep an eye on your peers in positions of authority to help them and your organizations stay on the straight and narrow.

Life is simple(r) this way.
Yes, and we should be talking about like we are right now to make sure everyone out there in a position of authority takes that hard look. This very thread got me reading some books on the topic including one Mr. Amdur recommended. I learned a lot. And all this caused discussion in our dojo. Which resulted in some tweaking of our policies on adults, instructors, assistants, and parents. Because we discussed it.

Because we didn't just shut up and train.

And I'm going to bow out now because I've said my part. And I must say I truly do not appreciate the irrelevant digs you've put into your posts. You do not know me. You certainly don't know anything about how I raise my daugther. So this is *really* a good time for me to walk away from this discussion.

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Old 09-28-2008, 04:27 AM   #334
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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What else do extremists think, Salim?
Is OK to harm CHILDREN Joe? Is that extreme Joe? What should happen to people who harm children Joe?
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Old 09-28-2008, 10:47 AM   #335
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Is OK to harm CHILDREN Joe? Is that extreme Joe? What should happen to people who harm children Joe?
The glow of the fire and the smell of the brimstone nearby... Someone has let the devil into his home...

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Old 09-28-2008, 11:06 AM   #336
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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The glow of the fire and the smell of the brimstone nearby... Someone has let the devil into his home...
Please don't feed the trolls.

Chris Moses
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:08 AM   #337
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Joe,
I read your essay entitled Hypocrite (which has since been removed from the archives of the internet, although you can find the site where it used to be ) about your feeelings regarding Clint George Sensei's fall from grace after you attended an inspiring workshop he offered in your dojo. The essay was previously to be found on your blog, Aiki in Seattle. It expressed exactly the same feelings and emotions that people are expressing here in a different, but related forum.

Your essay was insightful and accurate to my experience of this incredible tragedy and to the way it has hit many people.

I regret that you are no longer posting on your aikido blog forum. I also regret that you made that choice in considerably close proximity to the time that you wrote the essay about Sensei George. Please respect that others have chosen not to abandon the discussion. By all appearances you don't seem to be done with it either. From my perspective that points to the healthy elements of this discussion and our needs to 'get it out'.

But, If you really mean 'shut up and train', well , "One finger forward and three fingers back" on the hand that points.

I hope we can all settle into our training together and move forward, or backward, with good information.

Peace,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-28-2008 at 11:13 AM.

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Old 09-28-2008, 11:32 AM   #338
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

If everybody did just shut up and train---which is to say that, when teaching, the teacher just teaches; when in class, the student just learns; and so forth---the odds of such events occurring should decrease.

How can this be?

When you are in tune with what pure teaching is, you are more likely to recognize what it is when a teacher is not purely teaching, but may have other intention. When you know what it is to purely learn as a student, you are more likely to recognize when a student is not purely learning, but may have other intention. And when you know that no person may be entirely pure, you will be less likely to believe---out of want, out of idolization, or out of habit and complacency---that someone is.

There is no need to live suspecting that everyone you see is a child molester. There is also no need to live giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that he or she is not. Approach every situation with a clear mind and act according to the circumstances of situation.

Aikido is one path that teaches this.

So, there is the root of the advice, "Shut up and practice."

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Old 09-28-2008, 11:33 AM   #339
Mark Uttech
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Smile Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Onegaishimasu. "Aikido is communication" is a common theme of Mary Heiny Sensei's teaching. The internet, being still new, pushes emotional buttons that many of us didn't know we had. My father taught me a basic 24 hour rule: "write your reply using all the emotion you have; but don't send it for 24 hours." That rule has stood me in good stead through many emotional twists and turns.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:43 AM   #340
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
If everybody did just shut up and train---which is to say that, when teaching, the teacher just teaches; when in class, the student just learns; and so forth---the odds of such events occurring should decrease.

How can this be?

When you are in tune with what pure teaching is, you are more likely to recognize what it is when a teacher is not purely teaching, but may have other intention. When you know what it is to purely learn as a student, you are more likely to recognize when a student is not purely learning, but may have other intention. And when you know that no person may be entirely pure, you will be less likely to believe---out of want, out of idolization, or out of habit and complacency---that someone is.

There is no need to live suspecting that everyone you see is a child molester. There is also no need to live giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that he or she is not. Approach every situation with a clear mind and act according to the circumstances of situation.

Aikido is one path that teaches this.

So, there is the root of the advice, "Shut up and practice."
I agree.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:49 AM   #341
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Joe,
I read your essay entitled Hypocrite (which has since been removed from the archives of the internet, although you can find the site where it used to be ) about your feeelings regarding Clint George Sensei's fall from grace after you attended an inspiring workshop he offered in your dojo. The essay was previously to be found on your blog, Aiki in Seattle. It expressed exactly the same feelings and emotions that people are expressing here in a different, but related forum.
I am not that person, Jen. I was one of the respondents to that blog and had a nice conversation with the fellow. The follow on exchange happened on my own blog back in march here:

http://inexhaustiblethings.blogspot....delusions.html

Blog postings, AikiWeb postings, and such are all ways to practice the balancing and harmony-restoring principles of Aikido. Hand-holding, head-patting "there, there" tenkans are not the only means in the art. Irimis and atemis are offered with the same respect among fellow practitioners.

So, with respect as always,

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Old 09-28-2008, 12:12 PM   #342
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post

Blog postings, AikiWeb postings, and such are all ways to practice the balancing and harmony-restoring principles of Aikido.

So, with respect as always,
A virtual mat.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-28-2008 at 12:21 PM.

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Old 09-28-2008, 12:15 PM   #343
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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I'm glad you have also been taught well.
Alas, that I may have been taught well does not mean that I always do so well

So, I do the best I can---and I screw up with the best of 'em!

Be well!

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Old 09-28-2008, 12:45 PM   #344
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Alas, that I may have been taught well does not mean that I always do so well

So, I do the best I can---and I screw up with the best of 'em!

Be well!
Along with the rest of us.

Thanks and well, I be.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:53 PM   #345
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

What happened to the actual subject of this thread? It is about Clint George. Some how it has become a venue for verbal sparring.

Joe, it seems that you are picking fights with people on this thread and taking things extremely personal and I wonder why. Why do you feel the need to guard your opinions so strongly that you write things that are particularly rude? It simply doesn't warrant that kind of response.

True, the subject matter should be discussed. However, I think that it is starting to get a little personal and way off topic.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:28 PM   #346
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi folks,

As I've asked before:

Let's try to steer the discussion back to being directly pertinent to aikido and the original topic. If you wish to discuss a more general topic, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

As before, please let's keep the discussion regarding this news item respectful and civil. Thank you.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 09-29-2008, 11:07 AM   #347
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I dare say that none of the 'profiling' done in this thread is going to enable anyone the skills to catch a predator. However, as several folks have mentioned, there are methods to reduce the risks to old and young alike. Several youth groups have very well developed prevention policies, and yet, sometimes, things still happen.
About two months after I was hired as a youth computer lab administrator for the Army, my boss, the guy who hired me, was charged with sexual crimes relating to one of the teenagers at the youth center where we worked. When the incident first was reported, some thought that I was involved because I was the only other male working in the facility. Some thought we must be in it together. How could we work so close together and me not know? I can tell you, that is a very scary position to find oneself in. My work computer was immediately seized along with my bosses. Why? Mostly due to mass hysteria. And also because it is easy for your employer to seize your computer. No warrant, no permission, just done. It was a bad time. I was eventually exonerated after being interrogated by the sheriffs department. This whole thing made me reconsider my career choice and I eventually left the youth center. I am very cautious when working with youth now. Did that whole experience enhance my ability to spot a predator? Naw, I don't think so. Has this thread enhanced my ability to spot a predator? No. Has this thread raised my awareness of a problem inherent in our society? No, I was already painfully aware of the problem. Has this thread allowed many people to vent their frustrations? Yes. So carry on my good friends.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:16 AM   #348
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Tougher punishment on criminals who commit these barbaric crimes may deter many. If you know that you are going to lose your life if you commit such a crime, you may think twice.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:26 AM   #349
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Tougher punishment on criminals who commit these barbaric crimes may deter many. If you know that you are going to lose your life if you commit such a crime, you may think twice.
I wouldn't bet on it. Deterrents are most effective on rational people, and people who commit predatory crimes against children are already predisposed to not thinking about their futures. If becoming a shamed societal outcast does not deter, I don't think anything else is likely to, either.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:40 PM   #350
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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I dare say that none of the 'profiling' done in this thread is going to enable anyone the skills to catch a predator. However, as several folks have mentioned, there are methods to reduce the risks to old and young alike. Several youth groups have very well developed prevention policies, and yet, sometimes, things still happen.
About two months after I was hired as a youth computer lab administrator for the Army, my boss, the guy who hired me, was charged with sexual crimes relating to one of the teenagers at the youth center where we worked. When the incident first was reported, some thought that I was involved because I was the only other male working in the facility. Some thought we must be in it together. How could we work so close together and me not know? I can tell you, that is a very scary position to find oneself in. My work computer was immediately seized along with my bosses. Why? Mostly due to mass hysteria. And also because it is easy for your employer to seize your computer. No warrant, no permission, just done. It was a bad time. I was eventually exonerated after being interrogated by the sheriffs department. This whole thing made me reconsider my career choice and I eventually left the youth center. I am very cautious when working with youth now. Did that whole experience enhance my ability to spot a predator? Naw, I don't think so. Has this thread enhanced my ability to spot a predator? No. Has this thread raised my awareness of a problem inherent in our society? No, I was already painfully aware of the problem. Has this thread allowed many people to vent their frustrations? Yes. So carry on my good friends.
One of the reasons that I cautioned people not to talk about this issue in terms of good vs. evil was well illustrated by Ricky's comment. Ellis and other professionals (myself included- I also happen to specialize in forensic psychological evaluations) have pointed out certain personality trait groups that these people can fall into (eg. narcissistic, sociopathic, ....). The REAL problem is is that those same personality trait groupings can be enacted in what we would consider socially successful manners. Just think of the charismatic industry leader who loves the power and money. That person might seem truly concerned when this leader acts to help the company and axes 10,000 jobs.

We can identify personality trait grouping, but we CANNOT predict, based upon those trait groupings, how they might be enacted in a person's daily life. History is still the most accurate predictor of future behaviors. If we don't know of the past, or the behavior has not occurred before, then how are we to guess? Should we be suspicious of every charismatic person who happens to work well with children or teenagers?

The sad truth is that there is a sector of people in this country who have interfered with educating children about appropriate boundaries in relation to body parts because it falls under the rubric of sex education. Educating our children about these issues is an important safeguard that has helped. Children have come forward and reported on adults based upon this type of education.

The other sad part has been that parents are so eager to drop their children off at one activity after another, never staying to watch or becoming involved, thinking that this is good parenting. The other important safeguard is the parent's involvement (of course assuming that the parent is not the abuser- which I have had to deal with as well in a professional capacity).

This discussion has been fruitful. Despite being a psychologist, with a post-doc in child psychology, I would not allow anybody to just assume that this is some key to safety. I opened a discussion in my dojo with all of the parents about this issue in our community. We have set rules regarding my interaction with the children in all areas. Parents gained some appreciation as to why I have encouraged them to remain and watch the classes and to even participate with their children. Participating with the children has been a wonderful way for a parent to spend meaningful time with their children. Having other adults present also serves as a safeguard to me in case some accusations were to ever be made against me.

The sad fact is that there are abusers in our communities and we have not yet found a way to proactively identify them in order to prevent these acts from occurring. Until we reach this point in time, it is up to all of us to appropriately prepare our children to be as safe as they can and for all of us to be aware of our children and their friends when we are responsible for their care.

Marc Abrams
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