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Old 03-21-2008, 08:25 PM   #26
Shannon Frye
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

While we're pointing out Youtube gems, I'd like to add another to the mix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBpK_rABtxE

I shot this beauty at a tournament about a year ago. At least he never claimed to be related to aikido!!

Is fly swatting considered a Do, Fu, or a Jitsu?

Last edited by Shannon Frye : 03-21-2008 at 08:27 PM.

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:44 PM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Hey Rock, hope all is well. On the one hand I agree with you, but on the other...

When folks start channelling Ueshiba, and misrepresenting what he actually said and how he acted, I get a little weired out. A lot of aikido weapons doesn't fit the bill either...but then people like myself never claimed it did. You'd go to koryu for that, if that was your bit.

Best,
Ron

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
Hey guys,

Relax. Take it for what it is and enjoy watching or ignore it.

Even the Aikido we often do in our day-to-day practices has much less martial validity than it probably should have.

If martial validity is all you seek, then go and practice on the streets by picking a fight with anyone who looks decently capable of taking your head off. You don't need Aikido to do that.

If you do want to do Aikido and have martial validity, then you would still have to go and give out some challenges to conduct research on other styles, test out your techniques, and test your abilities.

Rock

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-22-2008, 02:29 PM   #28
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Maybe Ueshiba lightened up after he died....and stopped taking everything so seriously, Ron.
Try a little whimsy...it's fun. ;0)
Mary
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Old 03-22-2008, 02:40 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Oh, I'm whimsical...

And I love to laugh and have fun with *some* of my budo keiko, especially with certain teachers. But in the end, I must admit, my failing is that I find room for this stuff to be serious too...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-22-2008, 04:30 PM   #30
Al Gutierrez
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Whimsy and fun are both well and good, it's the more absurd and/or delusional notions that aren't healthy for individual practitioners as well as the arts in general.

Aikido is based in part on reigi as are the other Japanese budo - without that honor and respect for the tradition, it's founder and it's forebears as well as for each other as a basis, it loses much of it's strength and dignity as well as appeal. My point is I think we should be real rather than silly out of respect for the art.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:26 PM   #31
G DiPierro
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Whimsy and fun are both well and good, it's the more absurd and/or delusional notions that aren't healthy for individual practitioners as well as the arts in general.

Aikido is based in part on reigi as are the other Japanese budo - without that honor and respect for the tradition, it's founder and it's forebears as well as for each other as a basis, it loses much of it's strength and dignity as well as appeal. My point is I think we should be real rather than silly out of respect for the art.
Well put. I think this is especially relevant when dealing with an archaic weapon such as the Japanese sword. Anybody who claimed to know or teach the use of a firearm but who did not handle their weapon with the proper respect for its capabilities would be considered laughable at best and dangerous at worst. Yet when it comes to classical weapons no longer in common use people seem to think anything goes. A sword is not a toy. It is a deadly weapon and should be treated as such.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:13 PM   #32
Mike Sigman
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We do movement with weapons that O'Sensei would have loved if he thought of it.
That's pretty amazing, Mary. To have passed O-Sensei is a great deed, indeed.

Regards.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-22-2008, 10:46 PM   #33
Aikibu
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

I don't know the style and the video reminds me of a Kenjutsu Kata I saw executed at the U.S. National Martial Arts Championships some years back. It was some kid from Texas and he was amazing...

Watching some of those kids perform thier particular Kata was awesome.

William Hazen
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Old 03-23-2008, 04:25 AM   #34
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I don't know the style and the video reminds me of a Kenjutsu Kata I saw executed at the U.S. National Martial Arts Championships some years back. It was some kid from Texas and he was amazing...
The video in the original post has as much to do with legitimate kenjutsu as the Paso Doble does with bull fighting.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:12 AM   #35
Mary Eastland
 
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Smile Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Thanks guys.... for your resistance...it really made me think about what I said. Especially you, Mike.... you have that abillity to really get to the core of things.

I don't understand why people need to post videos so others can make fun of them. I don't have the need to make others wrong so I can be right.

Your ideas made me think about what we do and why we do it. So thanks, again.

On another note.... what Ron is doing with weapons is innovative and fun.
Mike..... it's too bad you are so grumpy about everything...you would really like how relaxed and strong and centered we are. I think in a perfect world if would be fun for you to come by and see what we are doing.....we have no need to go outside Aikido to understand what you are talking about. I know you will probably read this and say something sarcastic back...and that's okay.

I read your ideas and try the ones that make sense to me....the ideas in the internal discussions have helped us a lot. Thinking of old ideas in new ways is a good thing.

Have a great day and see ya on the mat,
Mary
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:42 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Mike..... it's too bad you are so grumpy about everything
I know. It's probably just some personal character fault that needs to be discussed fully on an open forum. A discussion like that is far more important than one that just deals with issues, so I see your point.
Quote:
...you would really like how relaxed and strong and centered we are. I think in a perfect world if would be fun for you to come by and see what we are doing.....we have no need to go outside Aikido to understand what you are talking about. I know you will probably read this and say something sarcastic back...and that's okay.
Why don't you *tell* us how "relaxed and strong and centered" you are, Mary? Maybe I'd like to see it, indeed. As you have seen over a long time, I tend to like very clinical, straightforward discussions about how things are done, etc. It's a holdover from all the time I spent in school learning how to write, solve problems, etc. Blame my misspent youth.
Quote:
I read your ideas and try the ones that make sense to me....the ideas in the internal discussions have helped us a lot. Thinking of old ideas in new ways is a good thing.
Well, good. The exchange of ideas seems to be helpful.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:43 AM   #37
Aikibu
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
The video in the original post has as much to do with legitimate kenjutsu as the Paso Doble does with bull fighting.
LOL...Easy does it there fella.... I was not referancing "ryu" just presentation...

Let's all remember rule #62 folks.

William Hazen
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:38 AM   #38
David Yap
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote: View Post
Is fly swatting considered a Do, Fu, or a Jitsu?
Let me guess:

Do - When it tries to land on your donuts...Fu - on the fresh tofu garnished with fried shallots. Jitsu - swatting it with your tongue

Cheers and beers

David Y
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:16 AM   #39
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I don't understand why people need to post videos so others can make fun of them. I don't have the need to make others wrong so I can be right.
With all seriousness, I *didn't* start this thread with the intent to "poke fun". However, I *did* have a problem with someone calling something "aiki-ken" - when it isn't. Especially someone who appears to have legitimate Aikido training.

And since I also train in one of the koryu, I can get rather touchy about the XMA "showboating" that tries to pass itself off as "real swordsmanship". For those of us who practice *real* JSA, it is a downright insult. And unfortunately, it seems like many folks (especially kids) think that the flashy sword twirling/throwing is a "real" art. Call it "modern sword-dancing", "sword-play", or something else. But that flashy stuff has NO place in a legit JSA dojo.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:29 AM   #40
Mary Eastland
 
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Talking Re: What style of Aikido is this???

And since I also train in one of the koryu, I can get rather touchy about the XMA "showboating" that tries to pass itself off as "real swordsmanship". For those of us who practice *real* JSA, it is a downright insult. And unfortunately, it seems like many folks (especially kids) think that the flashy sword twirling/throwing is a "real" art. Call it "modern sword-dancing", "sword-play", or something else. But that flashy stuff has NO place in a legit JSA dojo.[/quote]

I guess you can be insulted but why?
Of course we have never claimed to be legit...and I have no idea what JSA is but we are having lots of fun and getting stronger by the minute.
Mary
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:36 AM   #41
ChrisMoses
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
and I have no idea what JSA is
Japanese Sword Arts

Chris Moses
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:56 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

http://www.miron-enterprises.com/ber...do/videos.html

I think I understand your perspectives better now.

Thanks,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:29 PM   #43
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Japanese Sword Arts
Thanks, Christian. Next time, I should spell out all acronyms.

"Koryu" are the "classical" Japanese sword arts (e.g., Muso Shinden Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu), as opposed to "Gendai" - which are the "modern" sword arts (e.g., Nakamura Ryu, Toyama Ryu).

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:39 PM   #44
Aikibu
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
With all seriousness, I *didn't* start this thread with the intent to "poke fun". However, I *did* have a problem with someone calling something "aiki-ken" - when it isn't. Especially someone who appears to have legitimate Aikido training.

And since I also train in one of the koryu, I can get rather touchy about the XMA "showboating" that tries to pass itself off as "real swordsmanship". For those of us who practice *real* JSA, it is a downright insult. And unfortunately, it seems like many folks (especially kids) think that the flashy sword twirling/throwing is a "real" art. Call it "modern sword-dancing", "sword-play", or something else. But that flashy stuff has NO place in a legit JSA dojo.
To each her own... However I for one do not feel "insulted" by it. The "Aikidoka" in the clip obviously devoted allot of time and effort into it and if it leads some kid to further investigate the JSA I see no harm in it...I have already heard enought about Aiki-Toho-Iaido...

Anyone who can execute any kind of Kata in real time (at speed) with control and "grace" should be admired for the effort they put into developing themselves...



William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 03-24-2008 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:58 PM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

I think many if not most of the detractors did just that William.
Quote:
The kid looks like he's had some serious training.

I was impressed by some of his movement...even when he lost his balance he recovered well.

I'm glad people have a venue for this kind of thing, but budo it ain't.

I don't doubt that these kids have skills (heck, I wouldn't mind having more of their gymnastic ability),
Of course, we also mentioned some of the issues with this kind of thing. Which strikes me as rather balanced. Apparently others disagree. That's fine.

As to why it matters? If we identify something properly, people may not make themselves look like idiots when they claim the garden variety sword-fu they do is kenjutsu. People may not pay exhorbitant dues to some chump who's teaching sword-fu and mis-packaging it as koryu, instead of 10 dollars a month to a legitamate koryu instructor. And all the other rather obvious reasons.

A lot of this could be forestalled with just a simple disclaimer...

Quote:
this is not aiki-ken, or a legitimate Japanese Sword Art. We enjoy movement with a stick or a blade and that's it.
Such a disclaimer might go a long way.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:15 PM   #46
ChrisMoses
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

For the record, I don't get insulted, it just kind of bumms me out, to see that much effort going into something that doesn't seem to reflect even a shadow of truth. Everyone is free to do what they want.

Mary, you're free to disregard this, but I assure you that I intend this as constructive feedback. You and your dojo might consider how much of your swordwork/experimentation you would attempt with a shinken.

We do things kind of backwards (from an Aikido perspective) in my sword school in that new students start with iaito and only as they are getting ready for shodan do they start to use a bokken. This is necessary for safety as it's when we start our paired work. In this way, the student should have a good idea of the limitations, strengths and flavor of moving with a katana. We also do target cutting (basically from day one) so when most people first get to use bokken, they have years of experience moving with a fairly realistic training tool and actually having the experience of cutting through objects. Even then, it's a struggle for everyone to keep that focus and integrity of movement when they switch to bokken (behold the amazing disappearing saya!). I'm a big believer in that whatever you do with a bokken, should closely as possible mimic what you would (or would be able to) do with a live blade.

Again, that's just something to think about, nothing more, nothing less.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:24 PM   #47
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
As to why it matters? If we identify something properly, people may not make themselves look like idiots when they claim the garden variety sword-fu they do is kenjutsu. People may not pay exhorbitant dues to some chump who's teaching sword-fu and mis-packaging it as koryu, instead of 10 dollars a month to a legitamate koryu instructor. And all the other rather obvious reasons.
...and there are a TON of "fakers" in the sword community who are doing exactly that. There was this one fellow who used to post his "training videos" on YouTube, with claims of teaching students swordsmanship for free at a local park. However...he also admitted to having NO training in any kind of sword art - or in ANY martial art. He was only "teaching" with bokken, but even wooden swords can do damage to a human body if misused.

Not only are these people misleading to the public, they are probably (okay, most likely) putting their students in serious *danger* with their own lack of training. In the end, these "bad apples" make *all* of us (including the legit practitioners) "look bad".

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:27 PM   #48
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
You and your dojo might consider how much of your swordwork/experimentation you would attempt with a shinken.
Chris -

We do not use the bokken as a proxy for a real sword. For me a bokken is a weapon in it's own right and, consequently, I feel free to work with it in ways that I would never consider with a real sword. Reasons for weapons work at our school include ki development, movement training, conditioning and strengthing.

Ron
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:31 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
However...he also admitted to having NO training in any kind of sword art - or in ANY martial art. He was only "teaching" with bokken, but even wooden swords can do damage to a human body if misused.

Not only are these people misleading to the public, they are probably (okay, most likely) putting their students in serious *danger* with their own lack of training. In the end, these "bad apples" make *all* of us (including the legit practitioners) "look bad".
Heh. Reminds me of a trust-fund baby I met in Boulder, Colorado (just to set the tone) who opened a health spa that had tons of movement therapy classes and corrective movement stuff in it. I asked him where he'd gone to school to learn so much about physiology, kinesiology, therapy, etc. He sort of flashed on me with pride that he never went to any school and got polluted by all the wrong ideas that are out there. Sadly, he ultimately ran out of dough and had to close/sell.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:38 PM   #50
Mike Sigman
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Re: What style of Aikido is this???

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
We do not use the bokken as a proxy for a real sword. For me a bokken is a weapon in it's own right and, consequently, I feel free to work with it in ways that I would never consider with a real sword. Reasons for weapons work at our school include ki development, movement training, conditioning and strengthing.
Ron, I took a look at those vids and my personal opinion is that you could perhaps go a little further with learning to use ki in movement. Don't get me wrong; none of us are perfect.... but um, don't ever be satisfied and keep going forward and all that.

There was a famous story that was posted on the internet a number of years back and in it the comment was made to an Aikido teacher who had just gotten his butt handed to him... "You have *some* ki.... come back when you have more". It's true of all of us.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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