Aikido is useless without atemi...

Michael Varin wrote: On the whole one punch KO thing, this isn't that amazing. It's not strictly a power issue. One punch KOs are almost always the result of a fighter not seeing the strike, and the strike being well placed. But when the fight is on and you're charged up with adrenaline, it possible to eat absolutely brutal strikes and not even miss a beat. Fists can be very dangerous, lethal in fact, but there are ways to protect yourself from punches and kicks, that are not available against an edged weapon. To be fair, I haven't trained with any of the gentlemen that Ledyard mentioned (I really would like to train with Mike Sigman), and the only Systema that I've been exposed to in person was low level. I have seen video of Rob John sparring and his opponent seemed to survive!

I would highly suggest getting out and meeting one of them. Let them hit you with just a bit of "power". I'll guarantee that you won't have the opinion you expressed above. In fact, ask anyone who's had experience with feeling the "power" in one of those "punches". They are, literally, fight enders.

I want to reiterate what George Ledyard stated.

George Ledyard wrote: I can guarantee you that, if you get to train with someone like Mike S, Dan H, Akuzawa Sensei or Rob, the top Systema folks, you will develop an understanding of what atemi was to the old Aikido greats. When you have an oponent with that kind of power you treat their capacity to strike you as if they had a sword or a knife. The whole, "I can take a punch mentality" goes away quickly.

People need to reread that and really think about it. Then get out there and experience it because it isn't anywhere near what you thought it was. It's a whole lot worse.

As to systema strikes, I've been hit in the body by them. They hurt deep inside, and the power they have is deceptive. I wouldn't chose to get hit that way with evil intent behind it. Not going to be fun. As in ruptured stuff in your body. Hospital time...

Best,
Ron

Training w/Sensei Bernie Lau will give one a "DEEP" understanding of the importance and power of Atemi...the flow from Atemi thru the final technique is seamless...

Mark Murray wrote: I would highly suggest getting out and meeting one of them. Let them hit you with just a bit of "power". I'll guarantee that you won't have the opinion you expressed above. In fact, ask anyone who's had experience with feeling the "power" in one of those "punches". They are, literally, fight enders. I want to reiterate what George Ledyard stated. People need to reread that and really think about it. Then get out there and experience it because it isn't anywhere near what you thought it was. It's a whole lot worse.

A good anology of that kind of power may be "More often than not it's not the actual bullet that kills a man but the shock wave it generates when it hits the body."

Having been on the recieving end of a few top end Systema and
'Ki/Chi/Kiai Atemi Power Love Taps" All I can say is they fooking hurt and as you point out Mark... The fight goes right out of the fighter and that IMHO should be what folks should strive for in thier Atemi Application.

William Hazen

To answer the original question posted here the answer is yes as it applies to me. I am a striker by previous training and my Aikido is no where near good enough that I would entertain using a technique in a "street situation" without first making his knees buckle a little.

I have applied wrist locks and swung the opponent without a first strike, or Atemi. I find that changing the attacker's postion, at my application of force, changes the perspective of the attacker, to be less interested in hurting me.


http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=217471

Atemi is only applied when nage was grabbed or held unaware and the uke has no further attack. Atemi will resume the movement of the uke and the appropriate aikido technique will do the rest.

Dundee Santos
Philippines

i agree with Alexander Silva, IMHO atemi just an obstcle to me to make my aikido better and better, especially in musubi aspect, blending and timing. Atemi used just for the beginners, to help them in understanding of unbalancing uke. so, in the next stage we must learn to avoid atemi, and make our skill in blending and become one with uke to take control and leading.

Beside that, i found many aikido practitioners doesn't make a significant progress in their 'aiki' aspect, especially when their uke is bigger and stronger and even 'pain/hurt-proofed'

Peace and love....

unisba aikido club bandung indonesia

Joseph Madden wrote: Without a first strike whether it be proactive and/or a strictly defensive measure, aikido without proper hard atemi is useless. Now the real question remains; what is atemi? Is it a punch? Is it a distraction, as in the way O-Sensei taught. Or do you really need to give that attacker that first punch to the head to be really effective. In my mind, the answer is yes. This may make aikido a little more than boxing with flourish, but this is the conclusion I've come too.

A two prong question. First, I have to agree only under some circumstances, and the opponent's first approach or attack, but not it doesn't hold true for all, and a first strike in some cases are a preference.

Second, a distraction is a very powerful tool be it a punch, kick, slap, spitting, language, object, etc. In a street fight you need both physical and psychological/intellectual tools and skills to cope with the unknown variables and situation.

If it is a question of life and death you will use anything anyway to survive, and you have to be adaptable to what ever comes at you. If it is a question of not a life or death attack there is more latitude in choice, and you are dictated by the law. As Aikido Shakepeare would say, to atemi or not to atemi is the question.

Agree Philip... distraction is a powerful tool...

The Potential or possibility to do "something" must exist in order for you to affect the situation in your favor (whatever that may be).

Usually you have many options if potential exist. (That is you have kuzushi). You could strike, kick, or do some other action that controls your opponent.

Not having ANY possibilities to strike or kick, IMO, means you are on the losing side of the equation and therefore, you have no ability to affect the situation in your favor.

Thus, it comes with the territory, IMO, that you must have the abiilty to use atemi in order to be in control.

So one could indeed draw the conclusion that Aikido without Atemi is useless.

That said, having the ability to hit and the ability to control may or may not have anything to do with "Ai Ki".

Kevin Leavitt wrote: The Potential or possibility to do "something" must exist in order for you to affect the situation in your favor (whatever that may be). Usually you have many options if potential exist. (That is you have kuzushi). You could strike, kick, or do some other action that controls your opponent. Not having ANY possibilities to strike or kick, IMO, means you are on the losing side of the equation and therefore, you have no ability to affect the situation in your favor. Thus, it comes with the territory, IMO, that you must have the abiilty to use atemi in order to be in control. So one could indeed draw the conclusion that Aikido without Atemi is useless. That said, having the ability to hit and the ability to control may or may not have anything to do with "Ai Ki".

Kevin you have to think outside of the ring. Street fights don't happen in a ring. They happen outside the ring. Unlike the ring there is something called the law and lawsuits that dictates what you can reasonably do and what can't done in excess.

What does what I posted have to do with "the ring"?

Yea, I have no experience fighting outside of the ring.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: What does what I posted have to do with "the ring"? Yea, I have no experience fighting outside of the ring.

everything you said was in the context of the ring, of a MMA fight in the ring. Who is going to strike first if you are grabbed and pull back by the sleeve by an aggressive angry bully at a public place who wants to intimidate you. You going to hit him first? The first question of the thread is a set up.

No, it wasn't in the context of the ring. My comments are universal or fundamental in nature.

You are either in control of the situation or you are not. If you are ou have the abiilty to strike or hit. If not, then you don't really possess that ability other than maybe to flail.

This is a pretty simple issue really.

What does the ring have to do with anything?

Kevin Leavitt wrote: No, it wasn't in the context of the ring. My comments are universal or fundamental in nature. You are either in control of the situation or you are not. If you are ou have the abiilty to strike or hit. If not, then you don't really possess that ability other than maybe to flail. This is a pretty simple issue really. What does the ring have to do with anything?

I take it you haven't been in too many street fights, win or lose. I can tell you spend allot of the time training in and fighting in MMA.

Depends on what you call a "street fight" I guess.

Your assumptions about me spending alot of time in the ring and fighting MMA would be wrong actually.

I say that not to insult you, but if you been in allot fights or been attacked like the formation of a fight has many incarnations, and not a direct toe-to-toe squaring off where someone swings first.

If attacking someone with the first strike can be very effective if done correctly, quickly, under the right circumstances, at the right target areas, and the opponent is not expecting it. If there is any variable that alters that formula the first strike can and often fails. Precision execution is required. I have seen it done.

I remember seeing a Gracie clip where a Gracie (forget who) took on a striker. The striker threw the first punch missed and was taken down and submitted. Many martial arts say not to strike first because it is a vulnerable thing to do making it hard to win.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Depends on what you call a "street fight" I guess. Your assumptions about me spending alot of time in the ring and fighting MMA would be wrong actually.

Well it clear that I am mistaken.

Your reading too much into it. My response is very basic. It is not about who strikes who first or how effective. It is simply a statement of fact, based on my experiences of dealing with positional dominance and the concept of kuzushi.

FWIW, most of my experience comes from my military background conducting close quarters combat, doing room and building clearings and grappling over weapons.

I am a nobody in the Aikido world. I have been taking Tenshinkai Aikido for only about seven years now under Mark Hopkins Sensei, but I am no stranger to other forms of budo japanese or otherwise. I am also not someone who doubts the "miraculous" aspects of Aikido. Infact the more I experience and read the more I am convinced of the power of ki and of the potential of humans to surpass what science has accepted is possible.However in my meager opinion O'sensei never, even in his most ki filled peaceful moments, intended aikido to be devoid of actual applicability; and he may have reached the point where he didn't even need to touch a person but how did he get there? Through training the actual combat oriented techniques for years. I seem to remember very many images and video of O'sensei (in his old age)using quite vicious looking atemi. Infact I may be wrong, but I don't remember seeing a video of O'sensei performing a technique without seeing atleast some form of atemi (including ovcourse non 'striking' forms of atemi like ,as O'sensei himself described it, 'shoving' uke's arm into their face for Ikkyo) unless he was performing his 'miracles'. That is atleast one point of veiw.

I don't think aikido is capable of developing people who can surpass what science has accepted as possible: i think aikido creates people who can surpass what people have accepted as possible. If anything, I think aikido and aiki and internal martial arts utilizes the most scientific principles of all martial arts; they just disguise it with the word "ki" or "qi" or "chi"

'knods' Perhaps...like i said im only seven years down the path. Regardless, i don't think aikido is aikido without atemi in there somewhere; and at first i thought otherwise.

When in a real fracas when you are facing thugs, drunk people who have sometimes mixed their intake with illegal substances or just high on some shit whatever that is.... ATEMI IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!! !!!.... without it you will fail miserably and will be humiliated ......those mental scars take much longer to heal than the lacerations and heavy bruising that will disappear in a couple of weeks..... take my word for it!!
I have been in many nasty situations over the last 22 years as a Hackney Licensed cabbie......Unfortunately it goes with the territory of my job.......
Sadly in the UK alone 49 murders of cabbies have occured in the last six years let alone the countless assaults which occur on a weekly basis.... most of these go unreported.....
Honestly some or most of you guys do talk a load of old ......!!

Tony

When he attacks, then I attack first. The inner explosion pure and profound saturates the surface. At this moment I have defeated him.
Aikido has within it the means to enliven the spirit. Aikido teaches how to express, direct and deliver this power of the spirit. If you have been taught well and you have listened carfully it is sure to see, Aikido is all Atemi. Forget that Atemi has anything to do with the power in the fists. In Aikido, Atemi is useless unless it is Aiki-Atemi.
It is evident at this point we need to study more.( When he has a mind to attack, I have already defeated him, faster than Light. O'Sensei UESHIBA.)