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Old 03-12-2008, 06:31 AM   #76
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post

Maybe its just me, but this all sounds kinda' vague. What exactly do you mean by "in most difficult conditions," or "extreme conditions"? What qualitative difference does it make to your performance of a technique to perform it as though "it will be our last technique before dying"? Do you do it faster? Slower? Less tension? More tension? What? .
I thing the last example from Mr. Kimura dojo is a good visualisation. If you try to do a technique with all your capacities and all your power and there is a null effect, it force you to find another solution. It is not uke that force you to do that, but the result od your effords. Uke is only a tool in this process.

Nagababa

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Old 03-12-2008, 07:58 AM   #77
mickeygelum
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Surprise in Randori in a small sense helps build Martial Awareness
and you learn not to think but to act appropriately dispite the desire to "seize up"

William Hazen
That is a great way of explaining it, thank you Mr.Hazen.

I do not agree with "resistance" as the word to describe an attempt to bring a barrier to a technique either.

Quote:
When one muscles down there are 2 options, go in the direction of the resistance and execute a different waza, or use the resistance as a means of finding the correct pathways and rotations required to have the initial waza work as it should.

Larry Camejo
Absolutely, Mr Camejo. I believe Koryu Dai Yon/ Yondan Grading examplifies this, as a kata, it is very fluid. Uke causes a barrier to Shishi Hon No Kuzushi, Nage responds appropriately. Kaeshi Waza, in my opinion illustrates specific waza, in a stand alone situation, would you agree? Both examples provide passive and active resistance, not necessarily muscular tension.

Randori, Tanto or Toshu, best gives any Aikidoka the opportunity to refine their skills. It also affords them the opportunity to become martially aware and to seek the path of least resistance, by feeling not thinking, to execute good technique. Randori exists at all levels, therefore, the Aikidoka evolves as the learning process morphs to thier level.

Quote:
If the direction is to "really try to hit nage," this should be interpreted as "appear as if you are trying to hit nage, but don't actually hit nage or otherwise do anything to impede nage's technique." Similarly, if the direction is to "try to resist," this really means "make it look as if you are trying to resist, but do not do so in a way that would be successful." What are doing wrong is simply not realizing that the implicit rules of all drills in your dojo is to allow nage to succeed 100% of the time. Apparently you cannot be told this directly but must be given some other excuse for why are you are doing it wrong. Most likely it is to preserve the fantasy that what you are learning would actually work against someone who was not colluding with nage to ensure a perfect rate of success.

Giancarlo DiPierro
I agree with you, Mr. DiPierro, but at what level do you relinquish the restraint? I have spent mat time with yudansha that were upset for that exact reason. "Dojo ballerinas" doing "tatami ballet", and there are quite a few arias out there. If you are instructed to hit nage here, you are going to be hit. I believe that striking and kicking are a necessary skillset to grow in Aikido. Cross training does not have to be intense, but introduced at some level. I believe, this is also with in the barrier to good technique.

Quote:
Aikido is art no resistance --- but it is NAGE who must NOT resist. Not uke. Uke can do whatever he want to do.

Szczepan Janczuk
This is true, randori illustrates this, at all levels. Randori does not always equate to competition. Thank you, Sir.

Quote:
Dude, it's practice. It's a drill. It's not free-form fighting, it's practice, a particular attack and a particular response.

Mary Malmros
Tatami Ballet will get you hurt or killed when you walk out the door.
When will you crossover to respond ad libbed? The discussion is about viable technique with barriers or "resistance". This is a false sense of security, practise bandaging and embalming.

Quote:
If uke has discarded his/her inhibitions and good judgment as a result of drugs or alcohol, he/she shouldn't be there.
You are absolutely correct, I agree completely. Since you interjected, I have a question, you direct that individual to leave the mat/building. They become belligerent and aggressive. What are you going to do? Run and tell Sensei is not the option, you are the one in charge. I would truly appreciate a response to this please.

Quote:
Kuzushi is the key...anybody can resist just about anything we do...IF they don't have their balance taken.

I think one major problem in aikido today is the loss of kuzushi on contact with shite.

Ron Tisdale
Thank you, Mr. Tisdale. Taisabaki/ Kuzushi...take their balance and you take their strength. Maintain broken balance and you will not have barriers to good technique.

Thanks all, train well,

Mickey
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:07 AM   #78
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance

Hey, quite welcome... Ron is fine, Mr. Tisdale is my Dad, and Mr. T is an actor...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:11 AM   #79
lbb
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Tatami Ballet will get you hurt or killed when you walk out the door.
When will you crossover to respond ad libbed? The discussion is about viable technique with barriers or "resistance". This is a false sense of security, practise bandaging and embalming.
Let me throw a question back at you: when was the last time you were attacked when leaving the dojo? When was the last time you were attacked with deadly force anywhere? Maybe you work as a bouncer, or routinely seek out dangerous situations, or start fights. Not everyone does that.

What you derisively and rudely refer to as "Tatami Ballet" is practice that's designed to help students develop a basic proficiency in a way that doesn't result with someone going to the hospital every time someone attempts a technique. The dojo is not the place for the use of deadly force. Do you disagree with that?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
You are absolutely correct, I agree completely. Since you interjected, I have a question, you direct that individual to leave the mat/building. They become belligerent and aggressive. What are you going to do? Run and tell Sensei is not the option, you are the one in charge. I would truly appreciate a response to this please.
What would I do? That's easy -- I'd just have the circus ponies trample him/her to death. What's that you say? Where did I get a herd of circus ponies? The same place you got a student who comes to the dojo drunk or high, insists on getting onto the mat, and becomes belligerent and aggressive when told to leave.
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:23 AM   #80
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
What would I do? That's easy -- I'd just have the circus ponies trample him/her to death. What's that you say? Where did I get a herd of circus ponies? The same place you got a student who comes to the dojo drunk or high, insists on getting onto the mat, and becomes belligerent and aggressive when told to leave.
Nice! lol Well, one of the places I train has had to ask someone to leave. But I don't think any violence was needed. The person was actually quite surprised. Often people like that don't even realize what they are doing, and once it is explained, they settle down nicely.

There are many levels at which to train in Budo, and Aikido specifically. I'm not sure we should be deriding someone else's choices in that endevour. Especially with the use of hypothetical situations.

On the other hand, there also is a place for people who want to up their current level, and sometimes that does involve pushing certain boundries. As long as all involved agree to that...have at it!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-12-2008, 09:22 AM   #81
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Re: Resistance

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This is very funny - correct way of being Uke ....You don't know what uke will do. It is impossible to define the 'right' behavior' of attacker. He has a different view of reality, he can be very stupid, or influenced by alcohol, drugs, or simply very advanced and experimented fighter. Your technique can't depend of his behavior. It will be not anymore aikido.
I'm fairly certain that NagaBaba was not talking about a practice partner at the dojo being under the influence of alcohol or drugs, but rather a person who you might have a physical altercation with *outside* of the dojo. I think his point here was that, in real life (beyond the walls of the dojo), you simply can not assume that any person is going to react in a certain way, have a certain level of compliance, or even a certain level of common sense. Alcohol and drugs impair your ability to think rationally, so the common-sense reaction of "I'd better not resist, she's going to break my arm if I do" may not occur. The same thing for an advanced fighter who's been trained not to submit to certain types of pins...I watched a friend's shoot-fighting match a few years ago and his opponent was attempting to get a choke on him. He wasn't giving up his throat, so his opponent put forearm pressure on his nose. He still wouldn't give up his throat, and suddenly...SNAP...the nose broke. It surprised his opponent so much that my friend was able to roll out of the lock and get an arm-bar on the other guy. The point was that *this* is the kind of unpredictability one would face in the real world, and if you consider Aikido to be a true fighting fom, you need to include these situations in your training.

From a personal perspective, I'm probably less concerned with the practical application of my Aikido as a self-defense or combat art than many others here, though I do try to keep the fact that it *is* martial training in my mind at all times.
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:02 PM   #82
mickeygelum
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Let me throw a question back at you: when was the last time you were attacked when leaving the dojo? When was the last time you were attacked with deadly force anywhere? Maybe you work as a bouncer, or routinely seek out dangerous situations, or start fights. Not everyone does that.
I am a LEO (law enforcement officer)...and yes I guess I seek out dangerous situations. Ever put on the pads and have a go? Let one of your training partners really grab you by the throat and see if your response is enough to escape, let alone fend off the ensuing barrage of grabs, strikes or kicks. Or will the attack leave you in a lump after being choked out. Rude? I am not rude, just stating facts. You have the cutting tongue, can you really cash the check your statements write? Only you know. Next time you are on the mat, look at your true self, does it dissappear after a few seconds? Does your imaginary self take over? Again, only you will know.
I would hope and pray that you never are in that position outside of the dojo, but if you are, will you survive?

Quote:
What would I do? That's easy -- I'd just have the circus ponies trample him/her to death. What's that you say? Where did I get a herd of circus ponies? The same place you got a student who comes to the dojo drunk or high, insists on getting onto the mat, and becomes belligerent and aggressive when told to leave.
What's the matter, at a loss for words? Evidently, I guess you just can not get along with anyone. I asked a simple question, from experience, and you think that it would or could not ever happen. That is the exact type response I expected from you. If you have not noticed, there is a lot of experience within this thread, maybe you should sit back and learn something, then try to show how much you have to offer, not ridicule everyone that you perceive to
be attacking your position.

Train well, Train real,

Mickey

ps...I am sure you know exactly what Tatami Ballet is, right?

Last edited by mickeygelum : 03-12-2008 at 12:14 PM. Reason: misspelling and ps. addition
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:39 PM   #83
Aikibu
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Jonathan,
There is an old saying from Himalaya: Aikido ends when attacker touch you.
more I practice, more I tend to agree with that.

Also Sugano sensei often has been laughing that I'm not doing aikido but jujutsu. So I started to carefully study time and space BEFORE contact.

Having said that, I don't 'try to relax and adjust.' This mistake is common for quite beginners on jujutsu level. So you could never stop my technique this way. Please find something more sophisticated

Exactly, technique-specific practice can give expected results ONLY when technique is executed in most difficult conditions. Extreme conditions. Not only because the is the only way to close all openings, but such teaching follows O sensei teaching that every technique we must execute as it will be our last technique before dying. That makes difference aikido from any other sport oriented practice.
I think I groove with what you're saying here Northman and I like it.

Personally if it's one thing that gives Aikido a bad name it's all the Uke Bunnies hippity hopping around the Dojo, and instilling dangerously bad habits in practice by not making Nage perform correctly and with serious intent towards actually learning the technique from a wholistic perspective aka Real Life.

That does not mean you have to be a butthead with 'resistance" It just means that if you expect to progress in Aikido ATTACK!!! LOL

WIlliam Hazen

PS. One reason I love to teach beginners They just don't know how to be Uke Bunnies and prefer to act naturally or use thier background in other Martial Arts...

Last edited by Aikibu : 03-12-2008 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:41 PM   #84
lbb
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
I am a LEO (law enforcement officer)...and yes I guess I seek out dangerous situations. Ever put on the pads and have a go? Let one of your training partners really grab you by the throat and see if your response is enough to escape, let alone fend off the ensuing barrage of grabs, strikes or kicks. Or will the attack leave you in a lump after being choked out. Rude? I am not rude, just stating facts. You have the cutting tongue, can you really cash the check your statements write? Only you know. Next time you are on the mat, look at your true self, does it dissappear after a few seconds? Does your imaginary self take over? Again, only you will know.
I would hope and pray that you never are in that position outside of the dojo, but if you are, will you survive?
You're chock full of assumptions here, Mickey, about what I have and haven't done apart from aikido. All I can tell you -- all anyone can tell you -- is "so far, so good".

Quote:
What's the matter, at a loss for words?
What's the matter, don't you like the words? Your question wasn't "simple", it was based on hypotheticals. If you're allowed to create a hypothetical attacker waiting outside the dojo to stomp me to death when I leave, surely I'm allowed to create a hypothetical response. I suspect you're offended and getting your back up because you think my hypothetical circus ponies are absurd, while your hypothetical attacker waiting outside the dojo to stomp me to death is utterly realistic. If I'm right on this, we must simply agree to disagree and let the matter drop.

There's been a lot of talk about what is and isn't real in this thread. I'm sure you'd agree that it's a waste of time to respond to situations that aren't real. If I lived in a world where homicidal maniacs were roaming the streets looking for aikidoka leaving the dojo to beat up, I'd deal with that. If I had a personal situation where some nutjob was out to get me personally, I'd deal with that too. But to respond to those non-existent situations as if they were real, IMO, is as silly as believing that circus ponies will appear to rescue me should I run into trouble.
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:08 PM   #85
akiy
 
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Re: Resistance

Hi folks,

Please keep your tone civil and respectful. Thank you.

-- Jun

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Old 03-12-2008, 02:21 PM   #86
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
I am a LEO (law enforcement officer)...and yes I guess I seek out dangerous situations. Ever put on the pads and have a go? Let one of your training partners really grab you by the throat and see if your response is enough to escape, let alone fend off the ensuing barrage of grabs, strikes or kicks. Or will the attack leave you in a lump after being choked out. Rude? I am not rude, just stating facts. You have the cutting tongue, can you really cash the check your statements write? Only you know. Next time you are on the mat, look at your true self, does it disappear after a few seconds? Does your imaginary self take over? Again, only you will know.
I would hope and pray that you never are in that position outside of the dojo, but if you are, will you survive?

What's the matter, at a loss for words? Evidently, I guess you just can not get along with anyone. I asked a simple question, from experience, and you think that it would or could not ever happen. That is the exact type response I expected from you. If you have not noticed, there is a lot of experience within this thread, maybe you should sit back and learn something, then try to show how much you have to offer, not ridicule everyone that you perceive to
be attacking your position.

Train well, Train real,

Mickey

ps...I am sure you know exactly what Tatami Ballet is, right?
Exactly! Many of us study Aikido not just for the art, but for self defense as well. In a real life situation out on the street, and attacker or attackers are not going to be compliant. Sure, if they are charging at you or throw a wild punch, you may catch them off guard, but what happens if and when you are grabbed or the person bears down on you while you are doing a technique? The ideal answer is that you adapt and reverse or change the technique. But the problem is, that if you have been training without knowing how to move your body, use your hips, and how to really position yourself so that you really can do techniques effortlessly, then you will find yourself in a situation where your momentary hesitation may cause you grave harm or even worse.

Again, I'm not talking about resisting every technique or movement of the nage, but rather not letting your partner get away with the little things that will hurt their technique in the long run. The same idea works when the uke grabs you or throws a strike at you that is unrealistic. I am excluding new students and those who have not trained very long. But if the uke doesn't give you something real to work with, then you won't be able to handle it when it really does come. I have seen this so many times. And when it happens, people tend to get upset instead of realizing that they need to change the way they train.

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Old 03-12-2008, 02:27 PM   #87
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Let me throw a question back at you: when was the last time you were attacked when leaving the dojo? When was the last time you were attacked with deadly force anywhere? Maybe you work as a bouncer, or routinely seek out dangerous situations, or start fights. Not everyone does that.

What you derisively and rudely refer to as "Tatami Ballet" is practice that's designed to help students develop a basic proficiency in a way that doesn't result with someone going to the hospital every time someone attempts a technique. The dojo is not the place for the use of deadly force. Do you disagree with that?

What would I do? That's easy -- I'd just have the circus ponies trample him/her to death. What's that you say? Where did I get a herd of circus ponies? The same place you got a student who comes to the dojo drunk or high, insists on getting onto the mat, and becomes belligerent and aggressive when told to leave.
You know, I resist all the time in every martial art I train in. The only time I've been hospitalized was due to a kick in the groin and a hard slam in the guard where we fell off the mats. I just don't buy the too deadly argument. I've had worse done to me in a mma class than any aikidoka has ever even pretended to do to me on the mat. And believe me, I did everything in my power to stop them

I find it odd that most of the aikidoka here think resisting means just grabbing on and refusing to move or do anything but stop a technique. I'm sorry that is not resisting at all. Resisting is actually trying to impose your will on your partner.

Example:

Non-resistance: I throw a single chambered lunge punch at your center, you step off the line grab my fist and pull it forward, I dive into forward ukemi (yes, I have seen this).

Not resistance: I throw a single uncommited punch at your center, you side step and I use all my muscle to root myself in place and bear down to prevent you from moving me.

Resistance: I throw a GOOD punch at you, you side step it and attempt to grab my hand while I attempt to pull my hand back, readjust and attack you again until either you submit/throw/stop me or I punch you.

See the two non-resistance examples I gave are not realistic examples of what might happen in real life. If someone tried the first one, the attacker would not be thrown, he would be blasting you with more strikes. If the attacker tried the second one, I'd hope the aikidoka would be smart enough to stop trying to do the technqiue and to do another technique or just start hitting the flat foooted rooted guy in the face with his elbow.

To me (and the world of combat sports) resistance means that we do not stop trying to accomplish our goal until nage accomplishes their goal. If you tell me my goal is to strike you, I am not going to stop trying to hit you until you throw me, submit me, etc. This does not mean I'm going to let you tug on my arm as I try to 'stop' you. This does not mean I'm going to bunker down and try to keep you from moving me. It simply means I'm going to do what I feel any reasonable martial artist would do to accomplish his goal within the framework provided.

It's like the wrist grab. People who do a wrist grab and then lock their arm out are not resisting. Have you ever heard of an attacker on the street grab someone's wrist and bunker down and is like "Ha! I got you now, you can't get your hand back!". I have not heard of this, usually the have a goal in mind when they grab you, like punching you with the other hand, or throwing you to the ground. Grabbing a wrist is not a goal, it is a step on the way to a goal. When you work wrist grab techniques, but give uke a goal other than grab the wrist, you will find they almost never bunker down on your wrist trying to keep you from moving your arm.

I'm just really fascinated by this idea that resistance is not uke trying to achieve the goal given him, but rather uke trying to stop nages technique. The first way (uke trying to acheive a goal) will provide realistic feedback and realistic counters and defenses that really do need to be trained against. The second way provides nothing but ego stroking and arguments.

When a judoka uke is told to resist nage, he doesn't just plop down in Jigo Hontai and go "Ha! your throw sucks, you need to listen to me.", instead he actively counters grips and looks for ways to throw nage. That way nage actually learns to deal with real feedback and figure out how to achieve his goal against a non compliant partner. You are gong to have a hard time learning to throw if the uke just sits on the floor. (Which is a metaphor for how I feel most aikidoka describe their idea of resistance).

As everyone who knows me already knows, I think training with resistance is VERY important. But not the kind of resistance most aikidoka think is resistance, but what I have described as resistance. You need both non-resistant drills and resistant drills imho. Failure to do either makes the path that much harder.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:35 PM   #88
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
You know, I resist all the time in every martial art I train in. The only time I've been hospitalized was due to a kick in the groin and a hard slam in the guard where we fell off the mats. I just don't buy the too deadly argument. I've had worse done to me in a mma class than any aikidoka has ever even pretended to do to me on the mat. And believe me, I did everything in my power to stop them

I find it odd that most of the aikidoka here think resisting means just grabbing on and refusing to move or do anything but stop a technique. I'm sorry that is not resisting at all. Resisting is actually trying to impose your will on your partner.

Example:

Non-resistance: I throw a single chambered lunge punch at your center, you step off the line grab my fist and pull it forward, I dive into forward ukemi (yes, I have seen this).

Not resistance: I throw a single uncommited punch at your center, you side step and I use all my muscle to root myself in place and bear down to prevent you from moving me.

Resistance: I throw a GOOD punch at you, you side step it and attempt to grab my hand while I attempt to pull my hand back, readjust and attack you again until either you submit/throw/stop me or I punch you.

See the two non-resistance examples I gave are not realistic examples of what might happen in real life. If someone tried the first one, the attacker would not be thrown, he would be blasting you with more strikes. If the attacker tried the second one, I'd hope the aikidoka would be smart enough to stop trying to do the technqiue and to do another technique or just start hitting the flat foooted rooted guy in the face with his elbow.

To me (and the world of combat sports) resistance means that we do not stop trying to accomplish our goal until nage accomplishes their goal. If you tell me my goal is to strike you, I am not going to stop trying to hit you until you throw me, submit me, etc. This does not mean I'm going to let you tug on my arm as I try to 'stop' you. This does not mean I'm going to bunker down and try to keep you from moving me. It simply means I'm going to do what I feel any reasonable martial artist would do to accomplish his goal within the framework provided.

It's like the wrist grab. People who do a wrist grab and then lock their arm out are not resisting. Have you ever heard of an attacker on the street grab someone's wrist and bunker down and is like "Ha! I got you now, you can't get your hand back!". I have not heard of this, usually the have a goal in mind when they grab you, like punching you with the other hand, or throwing you to the ground. Grabbing a wrist is not a goal, it is a step on the way to a goal. When you work wrist grab techniques, but give uke a goal other than grab the wrist, you will find they almost never bunker down on your wrist trying to keep you from moving your arm.

I'm just really fascinated by this idea that resistance is not uke trying to achieve the goal given him, but rather uke trying to stop nages technique. The first way (uke trying to acheive a goal) will provide realistic feedback and realistic counters and defenses that really do need to be trained against. The second way provides nothing but ego stroking and arguments.

When a judoka uke is told to resist nage, he doesn't just plop down in Jigo Hontai and go "Ha! your throw sucks, you need to listen to me.", instead he actively counters grips and looks for ways to throw nage. That way nage actually learns to deal with real feedback and figure out how to achieve his goal against a non compliant partner. You are gong to have a hard time learning to throw if the uke just sits on the floor. (Which is a metaphor for how I feel most aikidoka describe their idea of resistance).

As everyone who knows me already knows, I think training with resistance is VERY important. But not the kind of resistance most aikidoka think is resistance, but what I have described as resistance. You need both non-resistant drills and resistant drills imho. Failure to do either makes the path that much harder.
This is also a very good point. I have tried using Aikido on people who study other arts. One guy was a wrestler who was excellent at grappling. Not being used to that type of offense, I found myself struggling with him. He also had trouble with me. Because I was not use to that kind of encounter, I found myself trying to do something other than what I thought I had learned. Again, I am not saying that we should train like this in the dojo, but the level of resistance should be such that we learn how to maintain our centers in any kind of encounter. Full compliance from the uke at all times will deprive you of this valuable learning tool.

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Old 03-12-2008, 02:51 PM   #89
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
When a judoka uke is told to resist nage, he doesn't just plop down in Jigo Hontai and go "Ha! your throw sucks, you need to listen to me.", instead he actively counters grips and looks for ways to throw nage. That way nage actually learns to deal with real feedback and figure out how to achieve his goal against a non compliant partner. You are gong to have a hard time learning to throw if the uke just sits on the floor. (Which is a metaphor for how I feel most aikidoka describe their idea of resistance).
Hi Don, I'm just sorry this is your only experience of resistance in aikido.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-12-2008, 03:08 PM   #90
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance

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I just don't buy the too deadly argument.
I don't think Mary was making the too deadly argument. I *think* she was simply differentiating between basic practice, and risky practice.

Quote:
What you [...] refer to as "Tatami Ballet" is practice that's designed to help students develop a basic proficiency in a way that doesn't result with someone going to the hospital every time someone attempts a technique. The dojo is not the place for the use of deadly force.
A good example, hiji shime or hiji ate. I don't need to hyperextend someone's elbow to have a clue that it's working, any more in aikido than in MMA. MMA probably has a better / faster training system for delivery than aikido. Ok, fine. So what? If someone likes aikido, enjoys the movement, is able to get to the point where they have some chance of getting the technique in the oddest unlikely event they get attacked...fine. Maybe instead of an 80 percent chance they have 45 percent. Before they had 0 percent. If that is the kind of training they are happy with, why denigrate them?

On the other hand, there are aikido dojo that cater strongly to LEOs. They may push the envelope further, risk more injuries, etc. You may have a few concussions As long as everyone there signed up knowing this, fine. But I certainly don't as say, a middle aged computer industry geek, have a need to risk landing hard on my head and injuring my neck in the name of defending myself from some uber body nazi waiting around the corner at the 5 and dime to trounce me.

As it happens, I take those kinds of risks because I enjoy the hard training...but not because I really need to defend myself. And from my point of view, the odds in general are more like 48% to 52%, or 52% to 48%. Maybe you live, maybe you don't. But outside of a sport dojo, it will probably be that kind of encounter, if things get really serious. The only 80% I know in that situation involves me carrying a gun, and I choose not to do that.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-12-2008 at 03:13 PM.

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Old 03-12-2008, 03:30 PM   #91
Fred Little
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'd just have the circus ponies trample him/her to death.
Circus Ponies of Doom?

Your Circus Ponies will run like whipped puppies with tails 'tween their legs at the mere mountain echo of Greenoch's keening wail.

Thanks for the memories.

FL
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Old 03-12-2008, 04:42 PM   #92
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Resistance

I understatnd what Don is saying for the most part, and can say that I have experienced much the same.

I think in aikido simply by method of training that it is difficult for novices or those that have not been exposed to "good" ukemi to end up not really understanding proper ukemi. It is one of the things we will always struggle with in aikido with how it is trained.

Flip side is that those that come from more dynamic or "alive" training might have a difficult grasping the importance and nature of training in aikido and for what it is designed to do.

the end result is a clash or conflict between two different perspectives on the same subject. One side gets labeled aikibunny, the other a knuckledragger.

Sticking to aikido, I think it is challenging to train proper resistance and to move appropriately. Personally I like BJJ and Judo as I think you learn very quickly on how to respond with constant resistance all the way through as Don discusses.

Speaking in very stereotypically and macroscopically, I would tend to agree with Don, that I find that those that study "sport" focused forms of the art, tend to have a better grasp of "appropriate" resistance...might have to back them off a little or spend sometime slowing them down.

It is a shame that many of these sports guys don't see the value in training in the aikido way...I think that it would benefit them tremendously. Usually when you they have a hard time because we do things that seem to be inefficient or the timing is not correct.

Anyway, guys like Roy Dean I think are on the right path to teaching this side of the art.

Couple that with the stuff that Mike and Rob are doing, and I think you might be on to something!

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Old 03-12-2008, 08:55 PM   #93
mickeygelum
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
You're chock full of assumptions here, Mickey, about what I have and haven't done apart from aikido. All I can tell you -- all anyone can tell you -- is "so far, so good".
Mary Malmros
I do not assume anything, I could careless what you have or have not done...as you are indifferent about my endeavors. Still, bad things happen to good people, real bad things happen to those who fool themselves with unrealistic practise. Sadly, I have seen children move and react better with active resistance training, than some adult kyu ranks that rely on shomenuchi ikkyo from tegatana, with a passive uke. Your remarks are evidence that you question your ability, otherwise you would had qualified your response as to why your training is effective. Instead, you choose to attack everyone that addresses you.

Quote:
On the other hand, there are aikido dojo that cater strongly to LEOs. They may push the envelope further, risk more injuries, etc. You may have a few concussions

Ron Tisdale
You are quite correct, Mr. Tisdale. Our training pushes the envelope at times, we have to. We make our mistakes in the dojo, and learn from them. We also have a team effort to hone each others skills, not just the LEO's, everyone.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 03-13-2008, 05:47 AM   #94
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Don, I'm just sorry this is your only experience of resistance in aikido.

Best,
Ron
I wouldn't say ALL my aikido training has been like that. A good majority has, but not all. However I feel this is what a lot of people in this thread are talking about when they say resistance. They do not mean a uke who is trying to achieve a goal (such as what a judoka would call resistance), but rather a uke who is just refusing to play at all (like in my example you quoted).

I think the most important thing I learned in judo (and what took the longest to learn) is that there is a time and place for all levels of practice. You can't get good without uchi komi, throw lines, and randori (in judo, randori is full resistance from both players)

- Don
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Old 03-13-2008, 06:52 AM   #95
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Re: Resistance

280 years ago Jonathan Swift said that good writing is, essentially, "Proper words in proper places." I think resistance in aikido is much the same: proper resistance in the proper places. The actual point of resistance must be logical. Resisting just to resist is meaningless and no one benefits, improves or grows. When uke knows where/how to resist, then nage learns where the gaps in their technique (mind) are and dedicates his/her future training to remove the impurities from their technique.

Just my 2 yen.
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Old 03-13-2008, 06:58 AM   #96
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Re: Resistance

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
Circus Ponies of Doom?

Your Circus Ponies will run like whipped puppies with tails 'tween their legs at the mere mountain echo of Greenoch's keening wail.

Thanks for the memories.
I was wondering if someone would get the reference

(and a tip o' the hat to Lauren Radner, original owner and trainer of the Circus Ponies of Doom)
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:14 AM   #97
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Instructive resistance

Tamura sensei is famous for being a very difficult uke to do aikido techniques on. He grabs your wrist, and suddenly not even ikkyo works for you.
I would say that it is because he has a very centered grip. If I am to lead him into an aikido technique, I have to accept his center and start from there. So, his formidable grip teaches me to find the aiki way.

That kind of resistance (if that is the word) is extremely helpful in developing one's aikido. I feel like a complete beginner when I try on him, and at the moment I get so frustrated that I try to solve the problem with force, he interrupts me and points it out to me.

But that is Tamura sensei. Anyone else trying to be as resistant is not sure to do it in a way that benefits improvement. So, I remain convinced that resistance should be used with moderation and thoughtfulness.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:16 AM   #98
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Re: Resistance

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
I do not assume anything, I could careless what you have or have not done...as you are indifferent about my endeavors. Still, bad things happen to good people, real bad things happen to those who fool themselves with unrealistic practise. Sadly, I have seen children move and react better with active resistance training, than some adult kyu ranks that rely on shomenuchi ikkyo from tegatana, with a passive uke. Your remarks are evidence that you question your ability, otherwise you would had qualified your response as to why your training is effective. Instead, you choose to attack everyone that addresses you.
Mickey, we're really failing to communicate here. I think that there are several problems here, but I'll focus on two:

First: you apparently believe, based on your various remarks (including but not limited to those quoted above) that I believe that uke should be totally passive. I have never said that nor implied it, so let's just put that strawman to rest, shall we? Rather, I think that what you need to strive for is an appropriate level of resistance. What's an "appropriate level"? Well...that's all kind of situational, isn't it? If I'm training with a brand new newbie, they're going to have to stop partway through a technique to figure out what goes where, and if I "resist" in a way that prevents them from working their way through the technique and learning something, then I'm not a good practice partner. Likewise, if I'm training with someone who's recovering from an injury, and I "resist" in a way that's going to aggravate their injury, I'm not a good practice partner. OTOH, if I'm training with someone who's healthy and more advanced, that's not the time to go limp -- I know how frustrating that can be from the other side. The bottom line is that my resistance needs to be what's appropriate for my practice partner, because this is practice.

Second: you're failing to define some terms that really need to be defined. You talk about whether or not "[my] training is effective", but you don't answer the question, "Effective for what?" You're a law enforcement officer -- fine, perhaps your goal of training is to deal with violent armed attackers. Perhaps that's not my goal. Perhaps it's possible for me to be quite aware that these are fighting skills, and to try to train for proficiency in them, and yet to believe that I'm unlikely to ever need them for self-defense. My life isn't like that. I'm female, I spend a lot of time in cities, I ride public transit and go wherever I want to and whenever I want to. I've done so for years, and I've yet to encounter a situation that I couldn't deal with in a way other than fighting. You might claim that I'm lucky, and that's possibly true, but I don't feel particularly lucky -- just aware through experience of what dangers are there, and not inclined to invent ones that don't exist. If I were to end up in a fighting situation today, would I use aikido? Probably not -- I studied striking styles and weapons for a lot longer than I've studied aikido, and that's probably what would come out if I were put in a "deal with this attacker now" situation, but I have no way of knowing that until it happens. That doesn't mean my aikido training isn't effective. It's plenty effective for my life.
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:59 AM   #99
heathererandolph
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Re: Resistance

Focusing on your own training is important. If the nage wants more resistance, they can always ask for it. Since we do Aikido we can resist with a lot of "ki" energy. Also, it depends upon the technique. For certain techniques more resistance is called for. Resistance can definitely be overdone. Again, for the best results, I believe it is best to focus on your own learning not your partner's.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:24 AM   #100
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Resistance

Perhaps an 'image' that might be helpful would be one relating to the 'independent' nature of uke. In one sense, or language choice, uke is water: a dripping faucet at first, a flowing faucet as we develop, a stream as we continue, and a river as we become more 'full' in our practice.
The river does not 'think' "I'll be resistant". It simply encounters the resistance of objects and moves accordingly; more strongly as the force gathers in one spot until the spot yields. Of course, we're developing our abilities as uke through out practice and learning to respond appropriately when we meet obstacles is part of that training. But to become solid minded, in a somewhat negative sense, can be a trap for the uke who is still learning how to flow forward in a natural, continuous and forceful way.
That's been my process.
Jen

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