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Old 03-03-2008, 09:35 AM   #1
Upyu
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Many students who train in a way they regard as strictly physical, and never even mention ki, have it in abundance.
So what would you define as Ki? ( In a physical sense)
 
Old 03-03-2008, 09:41 AM   #2
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
So what would you define as Ki? ( In a physical sense)
I am not sure if you expect an answer, but here it is:

The ether of intention.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
 
Old 03-03-2008, 12:52 PM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Hi Stefan,

You said
Quote:
Without claiming that it is the view of Christian Tissier, I would say that I sometimes find aikidoists using ki as sort of a shortcut, where they seem to think that focus on ki makes other aspects of aikido training unnecessary.
Please understand that is NOT what I am suggesting, and I don't believe any of the people I have been to see are suggesting either.

a) The exercises they recommend are no short cut. They involve a lot of HARD work over an EXTENDED period of time...consistently...if you really want to effect the changes they speak of.

b) Personally, I am CONSTANTLY looking at how this affects the "rest of" my aikido. It is an ongoing work.

c) I have the feeling that statements like this are a passive agressive way to "strike back" at the honest opinions given here. I may be wrong. I may just be getting too sensitive to this kind of statement.

I mean Tissier Sensei no disrespect...just trying to politely analysize what is before me.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 03-04-2008, 04:57 AM   #4
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
c) I have the feeling that statements like this are a passive agressive way to "strike back" at the honest opinions given here. I may be wrong. I may just be getting too sensitive to this kind of statement.
That was not my intention. I can be aggressive, I have to admit, but when I am passive I am simply indifferent.

I have seen many aikidoists who sort of substitute keiko for ki, but of course I have no idea how you or others in this forum practice aikido, since I have not met you on a tatami.
So, I am not speaking about you.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
 
Old 03-04-2008, 07:12 AM   #5
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Ah, see? Just my imagination, running away with me...

Quote:
but of course I have no idea how you or others in this forum practice aikido, since I have not met you on a tatami.
That's why the statement before surprised me. No worries!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 03-04-2008, 11:49 PM   #6
Upyu
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I am not sure if you expect an answer, but here it is:

The ether of intention.
Stefan,

Erm no. I said "physical" not "ethreal."

You haven't really defined Ki from any one of three possible physical manifestations. (Which would be easy to do for someone with a conditioned body and who could manifest these skills)

Btw, nice website...saw your vids, and I'll be blunt: I didn't see anything that would tip me off to the fact that you have these skills.
Nice straight posture, a lot of shoulder usage from time to time going on and a compliant Uke.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 08:23 AM   #7
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Nature of ki

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
You haven't really defined Ki from any one of three possible physical manifestations.
How could I, when I do not regard ki as something physical? At least not within the definitions given by modern science.

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
saw your vids, and I'll be blunt: I didn't see anything that would tip me off to the fact that you have these skills.
Nice straight posture, a lot of shoulder usage from time to time going on and a compliant Uke.
I don't know what skills you think I claim to have. Do you deny me of having intention?

Shoulder usage? Well, I'd have trouble without them
You probably mean that I have tense shoulders. I'd be grateful if you give me some examples of videos where you see this.

Compliant uke? Well, well. I guess you're implying that my aikido would not work otherwise. Whatever

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
 
Old 03-05-2008, 08:40 AM   #8
Upyu
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Re: Nature of ki

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
How could I, when I do not regard ki as something physical? At least not within the definitions given by modern science.
Maybe you don't regard it as something physical, but anyone I've met that has genuine internal skills can typically explain it in physical terms. Generally they fall into one of three categories without exception. They've been covered in these forums before.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I don't know what skills you think I claim to have. Do you deny me of having intention?
Well, you started posting about "Ki" etc and how the dantien is important, so by that line it seemed you were positing that you have internal skill. If not, my bad Though I don't know why you'd go to the trouble of making a website etc if you thought you didn't have the skills.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Shoulder usage? Well, I'd have trouble without them
You probably mean that I have tense shoulders. I'd be grateful if you give me some examples of videos where you see this.
Um no, not tense shoulders. They're disconnected from the legs/middle, and all sorts of (stealing a quote from Dan here) "power bleeding" going on in all the videos you posted.


Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Compliant uke? Well, well. I guess you're implying that my aikido would not work otherwise. Whatever
Never said it doesn't work, since I haven't seen you do it on someone resisting.
But even if it does, your basic body mechanics aren't using Ki/Kokyu power anyways, which was more my original point.

Last edited by Upyu : 03-05-2008 at 08:44 AM.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 08:43 AM   #9
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I am not sure if you expect an answer, but here it is:

The ether of intention.
Lets assume for the sake of argument, that "ki" is a physical skill. If so, what mechanisms within your body power it.

If doing aikido without it, is still aikido, why would it be considered a shortcut?
 
Old 03-05-2008, 09:22 AM   #10
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Robert John wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you don't regard it as something physical, but anyone I've met that has genuine internal skills can typically explain it in physical terms.
Hi Robert,

I am thinking about how to quantify the effects of Ki on a physical level.

What I am hearing from you and Mike's posts is that it aids in two areas:

Stability (Postural integrity) and Strength/force (not musculature but grounded force that "goes through the bones and fascia).

If we look at "stability", I propose we are basically talking about geometry. A strong stance enhances the geometric posture you assume (both physically and with your intention). To be sure,if we form ourselves as a tall pyramid (9 square feet at the base and 6 feet tall), we must accept that the base is a potential base, i.e. we are really connected by our two feet to the ground and the "equilibrium" we maintain with our center of gravity. Thus, structural integrity must accept some method of keeping the joints from wobbling or otherwise breaking posture.

If we look at strength/force, we should measure it somehow. The Green Dragon folks, without using weights as their training method, used to "punch weights" and break unsupported bricks as a demonstration of strength/force.

Olympic Judo Coach Hal von Luebbert kept meticulous records of how he measured his progress. At age 56, for instance, he moved 47,500 pounds of weight on nautilus equipment (chain driven machines rather than cable driven ones) within a 30 minute timetable. His resting pulse was 52, his peak pulse was 192, his blood pressure was 120/80, serum cholesterol was 120. He weighed 170 pounds and could ride a stationary bike at level 10 for 1hour.

When I trained with him, we took these type of calibrations daily as well as pulse rate 3 times per half hour work-out.

Are you using any forms of metrics for your study??
 
Old 03-05-2008, 09:23 AM   #11
Mato-san
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

For me, I never really respected Ki until I learnt to use it...I thought it was a mystical illusion...and made my physical attributes work... but Ki is so much more.. like a kid with a new toy when you work with Ki!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
 
Old 03-05-2008, 09:25 AM   #12
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Ron says it perfect in post 3

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
 
Old 03-05-2008, 10:20 AM   #13
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Nature of ki

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Maybe you don't regard it as something physical, but anyone I've met that has genuine internal skills can typically explain it in physical terms.
Then I must by definition lack the skills

I believe that we are used to different ways of expressing these things. I am unable to adapt your way of describing it, so I have to stick to mine. Sorry.

To me, ki is something that can be described as mental, as opposed to physical - but of course it leads to physical expressions. For example, a tendency to extend one's arms instead of bending them, and an attention going beyond the reach of the bodies.
Maybe that was what you were asking for?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Well, you started posting about "Ki" etc and how the dantien is important, so by that line it seemed you were positing that you have internal skill. If not, my bad Though I don't know why you'd go to the trouble of making a website etc if you thought you didn't have the skills.
Oh, I do believe that I have some skills with what I write about - here and on my website. They may be different from what skills you have in mind - or I might be completely wrong even about what I believe myself to know.

I may even be wrong about this:
I strongly believe that there is not just one way to Rome.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
 
Old 03-05-2008, 12:02 PM   #14
mickeygelum
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Quote:
Olympic Judo Coach Hal von Luebbert
Respectfully, could you please advise when Mr. von Luebbert was employed in that capacity?

Mickey
 
Old 03-05-2008, 03:38 PM   #15
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Hal was living at the National Judo Institute when I met him in the early 1990's.

He was a running buddy with Phil Porter. They would do seminars together.

I am sure there is a record of his activity somewhere at the NJI.

In fact, he was in the middle of the big blowout that ended in Phil's exit.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 04:19 PM   #16
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Michael,
You might ask him directly. he is a pretty volumnous blogger. His webpage is www.judoknighterrant.com

On his Judo page he makes this statement. I know he is in training right now because he is comning out to Ohio to the Mojo to run a seminar for us.

I'm 71, but I just hit 19 chin-ups last night (24 is my all-time best), did 120 push-ups, and ran for half an hour. This morning, as I do every morning, I did 400 sit-ups. I'm strong, tough, and disciplined. But I'm more proud of one thing judo has made me than anything else; it’s made of me a gentleman.
All day. Every day. For me, THAT's something of which a man can be proud.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 04:40 PM   #17
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Robert John wrote:

Hi Robert,

I am thinking about how to quantify the effects of Ki on a physical level.

What I am hearing from you and Mike's posts is that it aids in two areas:

Stability (Postural integrity) and Strength/force (not musculature but grounded force that "goes through the bones and fascia).

If we look at "stability", I propose we are basically talking about geometry. A strong stance enhances the geometric posture ...
Chris, you have told a number of anecdotes about yourself and ki, etc., but in my personal opinion you simply need someone to show you these things. Your theories and understanding simply miss the point. What you're saying generally only confuses the issue for people who are trying to get some actual facts.... and that's not a good thing, for beginners.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-05-2008, 08:00 PM   #18
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Perhaps you could be more explanatory for us.
most THI he these days can be explained with terms from the physical sciences.

Even "intentionality" has been isolated in water and identified if I understand Professor William Tiller correctly.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 08:02 PM   #19
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

correction: most of these things can be explained in terms of physical sciences.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 09:06 PM   #20
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Re: Nature of ki

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Maybe you don't regard it as something physical, but anyone I've met that has genuine internal skills can typically explain it in physical terms.
You haven't. In fairness, for that matter neither has Mike S. or Dan or anyone else from your point of view. You give recipes of movement exercises and subjective impressions to try to duplicate and similes of physical description (It's like (springs/vectors etc.) ... ) to aid in reaching a level of performance. By all accounts people that have visited and tried them are pleased with the suggestions. I take no issue with any of that,

But you do not explain, physically, what is the principle of action involved -- and moreover, you disagree with my suggestion as to the mode of action/perception that is the physical basis for Ki -- without providing any counter proposal.

So. Hold forth, please.

I maintain that Ki is the perception/manipulation of angular momentum|moment as a fundamental synthetic action|potential quantity. The analytic categories of energy, force, acceleration or velocity (which are equally valid as analytic tools) do not map onto to the synthetic action|potential concept of Ki. Angular momentum|moment does. For ease of use I will combine them into a single plural term "momenta," except where I distinguish them functionally.

Fire and water have Ki (Said Lao-tse:"everything is embedded in yin and embraces yang; through chong qi it reaches he 合[harmony]".

Not only gross motion can be described purely in terms of momenta so can forces, heat and other radiation or anything with waves or vibrations (angular momentum quantities), so is sound (as in kiai). "Straight-line" motion and acceleration (which the human body cannot inherently generate without rotations, i.e -- angular momentum inputs) can be considered as the radial change of aspect from any arbitrary point of observation, and acceleration as the realization of more angular momentum from a potential moment. Thus, motion described with angular momentum was the first relativistic concept of physics (hence it's more "Eastern" quality), and by which Berkeley falsified Newton's assumption of absolute space or motion in his "bucket" experiment.

Mencius was asked to describe Ki/Qi . He said "'It is difficult to describe it. This is Qi:-- It is exceedingly great, and exceedingly strong. Being nourished by rectitude (Yi), and sustaining no injury, it fills up all between heaven and earth. This is Qi:-- It is the mate and assistant of righteousness (Yi) and reason (Li)."

Unlike the more limited concept of force, momenta do not care where the hinge of rotation lies, or when it changes or if it is continually changing and moving (a wave). The rotation potential easily shifts from center to center and remains constant until the rotation is realized, and even then may happily allow the center to continue to change. Changing the center of the potential or realized rotations utterly alters the perceived action or path of motion but with precisely the same momenta components -- which as a synthetic quantity, are together always conserved. (As Mencius says, "sustaining no injury.") And since the relative movement problem is obvious wiht a changing center, the only way to see both sides of the problem is to have a framework that encompasses heaven and earth as points of view.

Bishop Berkeley in De Motu, dealt with the problem of angular momentum in similar terms to Mencius referencing the point of view of the heavens as a fixed reference. He also explicitly drew out a common Eastern reference (unknown to him) of stillness in motion:
Quote:
Berkeley, De Motu wrote:
... according to the difference of relative place, the motion of the same body may be various, and indeed a body may be said to be moved in one respect, and motionless in another; for determining true motion and true rest, ... it will be sufficient, instead of absolute space, to regard relative space as marked out by the heavens of the fixed stars considered as at rest. ... For howsowever forces may be impressed, whatever tendencies there may be, let us admit that motion is distinguished by means of action on bodies, it will however, never follow from thence, that there are absolute space and place, and that its change is the true place.
Aiki and the Eastern concept of Ki fits within this Western framework, which while less common in such broad use than the more analytic tools of force, acceleration etc. is nonetheless a valid, accurate and falsifiable physical basis for description of action of the type we associate with Ki.

The human body is constantly falling over, converting the gravitational moment potential into degrees of realized toppling (angular momentum). With various conscious and unconscious cyclic ( i.e.-- wave-like) components of angular momentum we use our several body sections as counter pendulums to damp the gravitational momenta and to counter that moment from being further realized. Or to project and intensify those momenta into our opponent. To give Mike credit, it is a type of restorative action, hence the image of springs is not so far off, but springs do not work like pendula. It is not simple 3d space vectors, because vectors do not work in a cyclic, segmented balance system, where the reference points are all moving relatively.

Extending Ki is literally extending that process past the structure of our bodies into the structure of our opponents, and training so as to make that process less conscious but more expressive.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-05-2008 at 09:15 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 03-05-2008, 09:08 PM   #21
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Chris,

For me the issue is not that they cannot be explained by physical science...of course.

The problem is, we tend to want to use reductionism to explain it. Of recent, I have come to the conclusion that this is the big problem.

Here is a wiki definition of reductionsim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism

contrast that with Holism or emergentism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holism

Anyway, I think we spend too much time trying to quantify what is going on instead of looking at it as a complex system in which there are things going on that simply cannot be explained necessarily in terms of quantifiable physics.

Think neural networks and chaos theory for good examples.

 
Old 03-05-2008, 10:21 PM   #22
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Re: Nature of ki

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You give recipes of movement exercises and subjective impressions to try to duplicate and similes of physical description (It's like (springs/vectors etc.) ... ) to aid in reaching a level of performance. By all accounts people that have visited and tried them are pleased with the suggestions. I take no issue with any of that,

But you do not explain, physically, what is the principle of action involved --
Erick, I've said this before and I'll say it again. When I did an in-service for the Physical Therapy school of the University of Colorado, we touched on some of these things and no one had any great problem grasping the concepts, even though they are pretty odd. If your suggestion is that those professors of kinesiology, etc., must talk in terms of angular momentum, you're way off base. The only person who seems to be requiring and mandating a certain form of description for these things is you. And you can't seem to get off the position that it's you who sets the criteria for the discussion. In light of the many efforts people have made to describe things for you, I've pretty much quit even trying, after seeing your continued insistences.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-05-2008, 11:18 PM   #23
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Re: Nature of ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Erick, I've said this before and I'll say it again.
And miss my point again and again....

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
When I did an in-service for the Physical Therapy school of the University of Colorado, we touched on some of these things and no one had any great problem grasping the concepts, even though they are pretty odd. If your suggestion is that those professors of kinesiology, etc., must talk in terms of angular momentum, you're way off base. The only person who seems to be requiring and mandating a certain form of description for these things is you.
You either cannot or will not see what I am trying to accomplish. Of course, kinesiologists do not have to get what you are talking about -- in hands-on terms -- in the terms I am discussing. I never said that, and I don't train that way, either. I think that way, but thinking and training are complements -- not substitutes.

Nor do they have to address it in terms of angular momentum for their purposes, which are far more limited and much more practical in nature. They can leave it to simplistic analogies like vectors, springs or whatever other learning model you present them with to imagine the dynamic. Fine. That's pedagogy -- not physics.

But the concept of Ki aspires (and has done since before the time of Christ) to address physical phenomena in terms that are beyond what kinesiologists deal with, including things that we call heat radiation, sound, force, friction, among many others in our reductive analytical pantheon.

If Ki is a real observation about the universe (and three thousand years of successfuly APPLIED Chinese empirical observation strongly suggests that it is) then it necessarily maps onto our scheme of understanding in a coherent manner -- even if that mapping is a little different that the more common analytical conventions we more typically use to describe the different subsets of the same things. There are many allowable conventions within umbrella of physical description. I am just trying to find the correct or closest convention that fits the shape of Ki as it is used, perceived and described. And in finding that mapping we may be able to end a lot of these POINTLESS rathole debates so as at least agree on the ACTUAL thing we are actually talking about -- in terms that do not depend on how one reads the hanzi, assuming one can.

That is all. Please enjoy the rest of the kinesiology seminar, now in progress.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 03-06-2008, 02:59 AM   #24
Robert Cowham
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

I've found plenty of material for study in terms of acute alignment and relaxation. I am currently mainly using the ideas of Peter Ralston (eg his book "The Art of Effortless Power").

Also recently had some Amatsu therapy done on me which I was impressed by - and through a web search came across the ideas of tensegrity which is one way of seeking to understand what is going on.

Anyway, here's another thread with plenty of food for thought:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...p/t-32288.html
 
Old 03-06-2008, 06:17 AM   #25
Aran Bright
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
So what would you define as Ki? ( In a physical sense)
Oh Robert, what have you done?

Hasn't this one been mashed out a thousand times before?

Still the question you are getting at is a good one but maybe needs to be framed a little differently, but still I would like to have a crack.

I would define ki as the basic substance of everything, what ever that is, whether it be sub-atomic particles or energy waves.

In a physical sense though I think what is more important is how to generate (?) ki. I guess there can be two answers, one is the brain or mind (if you can assume they are the same thing) the other would be the connective tissue.

What does using ki mean in the martial sense? I think that is someone's intent but also the ability to make use of the function of connective tissue.

In a really simple sense if you use muscle this is not really ki, if you can incorporate the use of the connective tissue or fascia then one can be said to using ki, perhaps.

This is so difficult to define because the way I understand ki is that it is everything, it is the basic building block of everything.

I'll have to stop there, brain freeze.

Aran

p.s. Oh and Kevin, after that last post of yours, I'm a fan a big fan. Breaking this stuff down is doing my head in.

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