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Old 03-15-2008, 11:33 PM   #76
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

Quote:
Tekubi furi undo takes the the momentum of shaking out your hands over your head and synchronizes it to your hara. Done properly, the motion of shaking your hands above your head alternately lifts your weight off the floor at your heels and drives it back down again...You should feel it in your belly. You are intermittently "floating" your own body and driving it down again -- not with your legs and gravity
Yeah, i understand this idea modestly well i think. We do quite a bit of furitama at my dojo. That and tori fune undo are great ways (in my limited experience) to practice an organic connection from center outward through the legs into the ground and out the arms and head. I suppose I was referring to the "non-idealized" floating (or the moment after) where you do in fact load up aite on your center. In shomen ate for example I got the impression that floating aite occured as my hands entered in an upward arc...aite's weight (the amount felt of which being the function of momentum) would still add something to the force being projected downward, if I understand my physics well enough (it wouldn't surprise me to find out I don't).
Quote:
It is however, no kind of leverage that O Sensei is using with the jo. He did not suppress them -- he just took them tangentially to the limits of their power, and held them there at the null point. It is entirely perpendicular projection or recoil (Juji 十字) in connection with their momentum.
Yeah, I was just watching the video and to me it seemed the students were essentially just holding on to the jo while one student held back on both Osensei and the innermost student. I'm not sure where I got the idea that he was supressing back into them; he seems to have been over-extending them: "pealing" them off their base.
Perhaps leverage means something more specific than I thought it did, but I thought leverage is a factor in anything we're tipping over one way or the other. The arms themselves are levers after all. Aren't we using a 3 dimensional lever system any time we articulate power from our center to our extremities?
Also, just out of curiosity would you consider a "yin" technique to be when we are floating aite's hara and a "yang" technique to be when we are suppressing it with a downward force?
Take care,
Matt

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Old 03-16-2008, 01:06 AM   #77
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Yeah, I was just watching the video and to me it seemed the students were essentially just holding on to the jo while one student held back on both Osensei and the innermost student. I'm not sure where I got the idea that he was supressing back into them; he seems to have been over-extending them: "pealing" them off their base.
Yes, and that's why their collective orientaiton is disorganzied -- they are having to get support from each other (through the jo which is also their only connection) as they try not to fall and yet still try to push.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Perhaps leverage means something more specific than I thought it did, but I thought leverage is a factor in anything we're tipping over one way or the other.
That's a clean pivot, pure hinged rotation. A lever involves a fulcrum. There are studies that show that ankles are not stiff enough to stop us from toppling passively, and provide no fulcrum. O Sensei has no fulcrum in the jo trick. Just tangential extension or retraction. We normally keep from toppling over by constantly extending and retracting the mass of our center with little hip kicks tangetially in the relatively horixzontal plane that is tangent to the radius of our legs pivoting at the ground.
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The arms themselves are levers after all. Aren't we using a 3 dimensional lever system any time we articulate power from our center to our extremities?
Not unless you want, and you don't want to. I can articulate power from the end of my hand with a weight on rope and brain you with it, but the rope has no levers, and no muscles for that matter. The limbs can work that way as well.

Look at how your limbs move when you push as in a push up, the upper arm rotates opposite to the lower arm, and in pulling in the same manner they are also opposed. That is leverage.

But in cutting motion the forearm and upper arm rotate the same way. The same is true in gathering motions (imagine reaching around a moderate size barrel) -- they rotate the same way.
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Also, just out of curiosity would you consider a "yin" technique to be when we are floating aite's hara and a "yang" technique to be when we are suppressing it with a downward force?
I would say that every use of aiki has yin and yang, in-yo ho. That is the cycle of breath in-out and the action we study and overtly perceive in tekubi furi. It's a wave. The angular momentum is continuous and cycles positive to negative and back again --Not up. Not down. Up-down... It's like magnets -- and there is no monopolar magnet. The only question is which parts are arbitrarily up or down and any moment in that dynamic.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-16-2008 at 01:12 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:17 PM   #78
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"...or: language relearned

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
That's a clean pivot...A lever involves a fulcrum...O Sensei has no fulcrum in the jo trick.
So one couldn't say a whirlpool has a fulcrum?

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Old 03-16-2008, 08:55 PM   #79
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"...or: language relearned

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
So one couldn't say a whirlpool has a fulcrum?
No. Good model though.

The whirlpool IS angular momentum, i.e. -- it is the rotation that it represents, where as the lever and fulcrum is one static means of creating a moment (potential for rotation), to generate an actual rotation that is angular momentum.

I can propel myself to great heights in a swing and my legs are certainly not levering anything. I can knock a refrigerator over without any lever -- with successive waves of little pushes at the top. Once you get it going, you naturally begin to sense the resonant frequency of the structure. It is resonant motion, not leverage, nor "me first" timing that works to move mass with least effort.

KI, in other words.

Since we are in the water, things like swimming (and aerodynamics) create dynamic moments, movements that are already angular momentum in themselves, but which generate even more potential (and thus more) angular momentum) as they continue to move (like resonance, in other words). It is a second order mechanics, unlike statics. All you need is a transfer medium to impart the acceleration that represents and the right kind of motion to generate it, to conserve it and to maximize it.

I generally gave up trying to lever masses of water when I began swimming competitively -- lo, so many years ago, now. The SLOWEST way to swim is to try to use the limbs like levers. You DO NOT claw your way, levering yourself forward -- hand over hand. Using them to create accelerated vortices, whirlpools -- also properly described as spiral waves-- of shed angular momentum (not unlike tekubi furi), propels you most efficiently.

In strong swimming, you cut the water at an angle with the limbs in a complex spiral path of taut, but fluidly "relaxed" limbs (driven by the power of the rotating core). That maximizes the mass of water captured and accelerated by the vortex you are generating with your spiralling and rotating arms and legs. That acceleration you can generate on a mass of water backlward determines the net acceleration your body experiences forward = m/2 * v^2 -- voila -- in-yo ho. That acceleration is equivalent to "floating" the mass of the body with the same means of oscillatory spiral acceleration in aikido.

The body of uke (as with your own body) is such a transfer medium. Waves of center driven motion will travel through it gathering energy as they go and it will unlock many hinges in the structure, to your benefit or against you, depending. Training the body to make it happen, to let them do that and to direct them as they are doing it is the hard, sweaty part.

There is a lot of Aiki in swimming.

But you still have to pump your legs on the swing, too

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-16-2008, 10:36 PM   #80
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"...or: language relearned

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I can knock a refrigerator over without any lever -- with successive waves of little pushes at the top. Once you get it going, you naturally begin to sense the resonant frequency of the structure. It is resonant motion, not leverage, nor "me first" timing that works to move mass with least effort.
Interesting idea for martial arts (and other problem solving), thanks,

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:39 PM   #81
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"...or: language relearned

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Interesting idea for martial arts (and other problem solving), thanks,
Since the human structure is supercritically stable, unlike the refrigerator, and since the balance systems of two opposed human beings are virtually identical in operation, with proper training it can potentially take less than one cycle can synchronize them to various effects, and allow a single resonant pulse to have a catastrophic effect. "Mountain echo" yamabiko .

The studies I have reference to show that to manage the balance system's ballistic sway/recovery of the center of mass, the calf muscles fire to "throw and catch" the COM about 2.6 times a second, a full cycle lasting 384 ms, more or less.

And that is in relaxed, quiet standing.

If uke and I are maximally out of phase (180 degrees of the cycle), it takes only a half-cycle syncopation to seamlessly "roll with" the punch, or approximately 192 ms (or 0.192 sec, for the decimally challenged). If you are 180 degrees of sync (or already completely in sync), you can de-sync to a quarter cycle out of phase (a quarter cycle phase difference overdrives or overdamps his signal) in even less time, about 96 ms or 0.096 sec.

Punch speeds range (in time of delivery) on the order of 300 ms down to as little as 100 ms. (Bruce Lee was timed at 90 ms, Danny Inosanto at 100, and heavyweight boxer, Frank Bruno at 100)

So if my model of aiki is correct, what I would call the irimi response to sync balance for disruption is of the same order as the expected speed of attack of the most capable punching fighters, and that's from the normal balance periodicity of just standing erect, without more.

A quarter cycle phase difference overdrives uke's balance center, making highs higher, lows lower, ("ten-chi," ne?) slopes between them steeper, and alters the resulting rhythm to be an eighth of a cycle out of phase with his original attack, either ahead or behind (zig when should be zag, or zag when should be zig ).

That parity 96ms::100ms, along with the disparity of speed in "rolling with" responses (192:100) illustrates the mechanical importance of irimi as the preeminent first instinct of aikido, as I see it. The "just go with it" styles of aikido are simply not "fast" enough -- but it is not absolute speed but cycle time that controls in this initial interaction. "Roll with it" approaches to aikido training are, notably the most criticized for their presumed ineffectiveness (although matched and opposing phases would have their uses too, after the initial encounter).

It may that the irimi cycle period is even shorter. The studies treated the body as a single-centered inverted pendulum. The real subject data they used was for the actually bi-centered people on two hips. It thus likely incorporated sway periods around paths encompassing both hips in one cycle. If so, an irimi response centered on only one hip, instead of traversing paths around both, may halve the cycle times described, That may allow "rolling with" responses to have some parity, but obviously vastly increases the cycle advantage of the irimi response.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-17-2008 at 04:49 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:34 AM   #82
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm curious is anyone has read ANATOMY TRAINS: myofascial meridians for manual and movement therapists, by Myers. It was listed as a reference in the wikipedia article I was just reading.
Just in case anyone else was interested in this bit of the topic...
Per Wikipedia:
"Deep fascia can contract. What happens during the fight-or-flight response is an example of rapid fascial contraction . In response to a real or imagined threat to the organism, the body responds with a temporary increase in the stiffness of the fascia.
You may want to read this this post and the two studies Innocencio noted are linked there: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=122
Quote:
High dosages of the antihistaminic substance mepyramine had most reliable and sustaining effects (n=29, p<0.05); while histamine and oxytocin induced shorter contractile responses in selected fasciae only; and addition of an NO donator triggered brief relaxation responses in several samples. No response could be elicited with epinephrine, acetylcholine, and adenosine.
Epinephrine, the fight/flight hormone has little effect, nor does acetylcholine, the autonomic muscle activator, and histamine and anti-histamine are hormones dealing with competing contractile tissues involved in inflammation and countering it. Oxytocin, on the other hand, the love and childbirth hormone, does have powerful and short cycle contractile stiffening action, with a straight forward NO relaxation response, so that recurring cycles are easily maintained.

Makes one take a long hard look at the teaching that "True budo is love" and that aikido is meant to be an ubuya, a house of childbirth, where spontaneous martial action (takemusu) is born.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:51 PM   #83
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

First off, I am sitting right next to my newly aquired copy of anatomy trains. (I thought I brought this book up first on Internal-aiki. It seems I was wrong and Matthew Gano beat me to the punch on this. Sorry Matthew - I would have credited you on my post about this book had I realized it earlier.) It is a great book and it shows the lines of fascia that Dan Harden has me working.

I don't know about manipulating fascia with love homones. I can say that my direct experience with this sort of thing seems to be that I'm influencing fascia with my intention alone while any of the muscles I'm aware of seem to be either out of the picture or going the other way.

I don't specifically KNOW that I am moving fascia with intent, but it does SEEM to best describe my experiences in this sort of training.

Rob
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Old 03-23-2008, 10:00 AM   #84
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
First off, I am sitting right next to my newly aquired copy of anatomy trains. --- it shows the lines of fascia that Dan Harden has me working. ... I don't know about manipulating fascia with love homones. I can say that my direct experience with this sort of thing seems to be that I'm influencing fascia with my intention ... I don't specifically KNOW that I am moving fascia with intent, but it does SEEM to best describe my experiences in this sort of training.
I have an 1997 article that either precedes or excerpts an earlier edition of the book, but it does not go into the hormonal aspect earlier mentioned from the wikipedia article. In 2007, here another link was posted with a related website -- http://www.anatomytrains.com/
http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../fascialfabric

I had two points.

1) "Anatomy Trains" has been said to assume that adrenal (fight/flight) input contracts myofascia, but the science says, no.
The studies cited show that it is not mediated by epinephrine/adrenaline (fear), but either love (oxytocin) or wounding (histamine). Fascial contraction is only indirectly neural because it is not very ennervated tissue It is the oxytocin system (short period action) or the histamine system (longer term -- inflammation), that appear to make major structural reinforcement.

2) O Sensei said True Budo is love. I take him at his word -- and the science tends to bear him out on this.

Several conclusions follow from this:

His "artsy" poetic imagery has a profound martial point -- Such language speaks directly to the limbic (affective) system. In most martial cultures, poetry, music and war have always been closely allied.

This argues against every form of competitive contest in developing such capacities, as such competition primes the adrenal response, not the protective oxytocin (mama bear) response.

Partnered practice with a direct intent to protect one's partner in close hard training is a necessary physical aspect of training to prime this response, and not merely an incidental philosophical choice.

If the science and the art are saying the same thing, something must be right.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:02 PM   #85
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
(I thought I brought this book up first on Internal-aiki. It seems I was wrong and Matthew Gano beat me to the punch on this. Sorry Matthew - I would have credited you on my post about this book had I realized it earlier.) It is a great book and it shows the lines of fascia that Dan Harden has me working.
Well you SHOULD be sorry! Just kidding
I don't know that credit was warranted. I think I got the book title from one of those rare wikipedia citations. I was just curious what folks thought of it if they had it...glad to know you find it useful. It's a fairly expensive book so i wasn't sure if I wanted to buy it or not.

Quote:
I can say that my direct experience with this sort of thing seems to be that I'm influencing fascia with my intention alone
I imagine biofeedback methods would be a pretty major benefit for such a thing. I'll have to check out that book now. Thanks for the info! I appreciate it!
Take care,
Matt

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Old 03-23-2008, 12:33 PM   #86
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
His "artsy" poetic imagery has a profound martial point -- Such language speaks directly to the limbic (affective) system. In most martial cultures, poetry, music and war have always been closely allied.
That is an interesting observation. Being a person prone toward poetic language I can certainly appreciate this idea. I would say I've best learned Aikido/martial awareness in environments where there were no words used. It was all right-brain type intuition.

Quote:
This argues against every form of competitive contest in developing such capacities, as such competition primes the adrenal response, not the protective oxytocin (mama bear) response.
I can't argue against this because I don't have the right knowledge of it, but I'm inclined to think "competitive" methods don't preclude any love principle. It's all in how one approaches the situation. For example, i play a lot of competitive sports, but my attitude is very much one of protection. Granted, I'm not exactly being competitive in the usual sense. I'm simply in a competitive environment in which I'm simply doing my best (Masakatsu Agatsu) and happy to "lose" (because I will learn from it).

Quote:
Partnered practice with a direct intent to protect one's partner in close hard training is a necessary physical aspect of training to prime this response, and not merely an incidental philosophical choice.
I would also say it forces us to practice greater attention to the nature/situation of our partners'/attackers' bodies (which we must be in tune with if we are to guide/control meaningfully). I know that in training when I throw someone in a general direction (ie-not putting my fullest attention into the action) I'm not usually doing as well as when I throw someone to a very specific location (ie-putting them in a very safe location). This kind of thing takes more of my physical coordination to accomplish and so in accomplishing it, I'm developing more of my whole-body integration.

To all: So...in making these connections, are we simply tightening up the system in general; taking out the slack? Or are we relaxing and contracting these pathways at will depending on the needs of the situation? With regard to limbic effects, I wonder how quickly that system might affect the fascia. Certainly we can feel our emotions come on in an instant, but our brains are probably more receptive than our fascia...?
...I should probably read the article you posted, Eric (being lazy makes it very difficult for me to check out hyperlinks...it's a condition )

Quote:
If the science and the art are saying the same thing, something must be right.
It's definately some compelling stuff.

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Old 03-23-2008, 02:52 PM   #87
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

not a lot of people might not know it, and it was few hundred years before described by uyeshiba, but the center/hara is described very well by master Leonardo da vinci:



it is clearly to see that, using square, triangle and circle, (basic forms) he showed the principles of aikido, Ki, and center point, without being influenced by any easten philishophy or thinking.

Hat down to Leonardo.
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Old 03-23-2008, 11:12 PM   #88
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

If Leonardo knew this stuff, he would not have drawn the chest muscles flexed! Based on that, I'm pretty sure I could have taken him in a fair fight.

The little diagram on page 33 of that book shows
Neural Net --Hormones--> Circulatory Net --protein supply--> Fibrous Net

I haven's read enough or digrested enough of what I have read.
Currently, my opinion based on doing some of this stuff, is that my intention is doing it even if I'm not feeling the love. However, I can certainly believe that feeling the love could be additive. It would make a lot more sense to me that maybe Osensei discovered that additive benefit on his power level when he applied his kotodama studies to his budo. If that realization was his golden light or whatever experience, I can buy that. (I have trouble believing that he was just some normal guy and all of a sudden became superman.) Havinga power jump from generally more powerful than everyone else after/as a result of a spiritual awakening to much much more powerful than most people. I can buy that. So is describing this stuff in terms of science truly the second opening of the rock door of heaven?

Rob
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Old 03-23-2008, 11:16 PM   #89
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
not a lot of people might not know it, and it was few hundred years before described by uyeshiba, but the center/hara is described very well by master Leonardo da vinci:
it is clearly to see that, using square, triangle and circle, (basic forms) he showed the principles of aikido, Ki, and center point, without being influenced by any easten philishophy or thinking.

Hat down to Leonardo.
Those are reference points for the drawing, the circle-square-triangle, and relate to the proportions and distances, not Aikido and the hara. The three lines are the center-marks of the circle, the square, and the triangle. No relationship to the use of the hara.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:25 AM   #90
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

Mike,
I'm sure you've described this a bunch, so sorry for the likely redundancy, but since you're something of the local expert on fascia: would you describe the training of those skills as being more along the lines of tightening up the system in general (ie-taking out the slack) or as developing the ability to contract and relax the pathways at will? a bit of both?
Take care,
Matt

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Old 03-24-2008, 09:45 AM   #91
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

This is O-T enough that it might be better in it's own thread, but I'll give it a quick shot.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Mike,
I'm sure you've described this a bunch, so sorry for the likely redundancy, but since you're something of the local expert on fascia: would you describe the training of those skills as being more along the lines of tightening up the system in general (ie-taking out the slack) or as developing the ability to contract and relax the pathways at will? a bit of both?
I think there are too many people jumping on the "fascia" bandwagon and it's not necessarily a good way to go. Like a lot of the buzzwords from the old days of the Neijia List, "fascia" has become sort of a mainstay discussion that a lot of people use to show that they are "in the know"... but the great number of different interpretations shows that a lot of people really don't know. While they're trying to figure it out and maintain the pose that they do know, though, they're instructing people to do silly things. I notice that even the muscle-tendon channel part of the theory is being used to instruct by some of these people who are trying to find their own way but teaching at the same time.

Let me offer a suggestion. Do some breathing exercises, sure, but mainly work on building up the ki/kokyu skills. Ignore the fascia part. It's not necessary or desireable at first.

Here's a quote from the Yi Jin Jing, pretty much the oldest available text on the subject:
Quote:

Membrane

(Extracted from the "Yi Jin Jing")

A man's body consists of the entrails, spirit, and virility internally; and
of the arms, legs, tendons, bones, and flesh externally. For example,
tendons and bones are outside the entrails, flesh is outside the tendons and
bones. Blood vessels are inside the flesh. But Qi is the dominant factor
for one's physical movement. Thus the secret for cultivating one's physical
and mental capabilities is to improve one's Qi and to invigorate one's blood
circulation. One's spirit and virility are invisible or untouchable, but
one's tendons, bones, and flesh are substantial. To cultivate internal
spirit and virility, one must start doing the practice of the substantial
parts of his body first. Therefore, one should not practice the invisible
and untouchable spirit and virility only or just practice the tendons,
bones, and flesh. The practice of one's body must go along with the
practice of one's spirit and virility. Because of this, the practice of
internal work should be done in thie sequence: Qi, membrane, tendon.

While the practice of the tendon is easy, the practice of the membrane is
difficult, and the practice of Qi is more difficult. Students must start
practicing from Qi first in order to keep Qi moving everywhere within their
bodies. The membrane will stretch automatically at the place where Qi
reaches and be as strong as tendons. If one practices tendons without doing
the practice of the membrane, the membrane will be weak. If he practices
membrane without doing the practice of Qi, his membrane and tendons will not
stretch. If he practices Qi without doing the practice of the tendon and
membrane, the Qi will not circulate smoothly within his body and his tendons
will not be strong. To achieve the practice of internal work, one must keep
doing it until his tendons and membranes stretch and become strong.
Otherwise it would be like plants on the ground without dirt.
Think of it as an odd form of conditioning, Matt. And you can see from the above quote that it's generally suggested that you focus on the ki/kokyu skills before you get so much into the tension, etc., exercises. Too many people the tension and tendon aspects (very common in southern Shaolin) without going the preferred route of the ki development. From an Aikido perspective, it's very obvious that Ueshiba's and Tohei's, etc., approach is along the Way of the ki first and everything else somewhat behind that... so I'd pay attention to that if I was doing Aikido.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:40 AM   #92
Tom H.
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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Let me offer a suggestion. Do some breathing exercises, sure, but mainly work on building up the ki/kokyu skills. Ignore the fascia part.
Seconded. I'll add my take that the ki/kokyu stuff is a nice foundation for other higher-order skills, and worth working quite deeply into the mind and body.

Mike, do you recommend any translations of the Yi Jin Jing? I recall finding a couple partial translations last time I looked, but didn't dig any deeper.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:19 AM   #93
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Mike, do you recommend any translations of the Yi Jin Jing? I recall finding a couple partial translations last time I looked, but didn't dig any deeper.
I don't know of any good translations, Tom. The real problem with most of the Yi Jin Jing (the so-called "Muscle-Tendon Changing Classics", but it's really about intent-directed strength/fascia development) translations is that most of the translators don't understand the topic, so their translations are often misleading. The same thing happens with a lot of the Aikido translations, the Taiji translations, and so forth.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:00 PM   #94
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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I don't know of any good translations, Tom. The real problem with most of the Yi Jin Jing (the so-called "Muscle-Tendon Changing Classics", but it's really about intent-directed strength/fascia development) translations is that most of the translators don't understand the topic, so their translations are often misleading. The same thing happens with a lot of the Aikido translations, the Taiji translations, and so forth.
Got any links to the original text (漢字 寫作)?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:07 PM   #95
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Exactly my point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:10 PM   #96
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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I don't know of any good translations ... *snip* ...FWIW
Sigh. Maybe when I retire I'll take up classical chinese.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:23 PM   #97
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Sigh. Maybe when I retire I'll take up classical chinese.
I hope you're making a funsie, Tom. One of the biggest jokes, once you've been around for a while, is about westerners who think they can translate "the original text". They can't. The vast majority of educated native-born/bred Chinese can't either. It takes a specialist to translate the old texts because the characters, idioms, contemporary references, references to characters in legends, etc., etc., are all so arcane that only a few respected Chinese will attempt it. I've mentioned this problem before. It's sort of a joke among a lot of us when a westerner "needs to look at the original text".

Besides, the ancient texts were usually pretty vague. Precise description was not their strong-point.

Yang Jwing Ming put out a book on translations from the Yi Jin Jing ("Muscle-tendon changing classic") and the Xi Sui Jing ("Bone-marrow washing classic") which might be worth looking at. Although he doesn't give the credit, Yang got the translation from an able Taiwanese professor. Then Yang added his own English take on what the translations mean. If you buy the book (I think the current edition is something like: "Qigong: the Secret of Youth"), read the original translation, but be cautious about Dr. Yang's take on things.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:47 PM   #98
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Connecting with "Hara"

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One of the biggest jokes, once you've been around for a while, is about westerners who think they can translate "the original text". ... It's sort of a joke among a lot of us when a westerner "needs to look at the original text".
Apart from Dr. Yang's book then -- I presume the answer to be, "No."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:00 PM   #99
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Besides, the ancient texts were usually pretty vague. Precise description was not their strong-point.
Yes, I was pretty much kidding.. just from what I've seen of the early poetry, it is inpenetrable on several levels simultaneously.

Last edited by Tom H. : 03-24-2008 at 05:02 PM.
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