Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-11-2008, 11:42 AM   #1
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
The "Aikido Pin"

There's an interesting thread at MMA.tv regarding pinning an opponent with Ikkyo. It's titled "The Aikido Pin" and you may want to chime in on the discussion there, or continue the conversation over here.

Best,

Roy Dean

[Editor's note] The thread referenced above may be found here through this direct link.

Last edited by akiy : 03-11-2008 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Added direct link

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:47 PM   #2
Chris Lacey
 
Chris Lacey's Avatar
Dojo: Aiki Institute of Spokane Roshinkan Aikido Dojo
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote: View Post
There's an interesting thread at MMA.tv regarding pinning an opponent with Ikkyo. It's titled "The Aikido Pin" and you may want to chime in on the discussion there, or continue the conversation over here.

Best,

Roy Dean
I read through the thread, and frankly, the attitudes are typical from people who do not understand Aikido. The reason I train in aikido is because I don't have the need to "prove that I can kick your butt with my style" or prove that I am better than so and so.

There are many people on here with backgrounds in other styles of martial arts. They came to aikido for a myriad of reasons. Trash talk is simply that. I have great respect for serious practitioners of other martial art styles, and you don't really hear from those practitioners.

...hmmm...could it be because they have the same attitude of respect and get what it is really all about?

Be safe and Be well.
Chris

--------
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
--------
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:54 PM   #3
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Hmm, I actually thought it was a fairly civil discussion...

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 02:47 PM   #4
Chris Lacey
 
Chris Lacey's Avatar
Dojo: Aiki Institute of Spokane Roshinkan Aikido Dojo
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Roy,

Maybe it was just me, and I am far away from even imagining an encounter where my back is against the wall and I would have to escape aggressive behavior from some one who studies a different style of martial art.

I just sensed a distinct tone of "chest thumping" or "my sensei can beat up your sensei" that I did not really go through the whole thread.

Posts like:
Quote:
MOTOBOY on 02/27/08 at 03:44AM wrote:
'If we stop and reflect for a moment, many of those engaged in the practice of aikido today do in fact treat it as a pastime, hobby or form of exercise. How is this attitude expressed in training? One area that immediately comes to mind is that, as aikido is practiced in most dojos, uke's movements are little more than caricatures of an attack.'
The above indicates to me that the thread is quickly degenerating.

While my initial reaction is to be insulted, I have to pause to consider that the poster is immersed in his own world of martial art training and does not consider the source that influenced his reasoning on the subject.

No worries though. I am pleased with the path I chose and I am sure that the majority of people who posted on that site are as well.

I am nothing if not optimistic....

Be safe and Be well,

Chris

--------
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
--------
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 03:21 PM   #5
edtang
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Chris, I understand where you're coming from, but to be fair that poster could've absolutely come to that conclusion from a fairly educated / aware standpoint.

EDIT: and as I expected, it was. From a 5th dan Aikidoka, Stanley Pranin. Did you even read the message?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=123

Last edited by edtang : 03-11-2008 at 03:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 03:24 PM   #6
edtang
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

And after reading the thread carefully, I have to agree that it's actually a very civil and productive thread.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 03:47 PM   #7
Kaze0180
Dojo: Houston Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Hahahaha, good article! Listening to people who don't know is entertaining. BUT they do make good points, could this work with someone who's use to locks and can roll out? Well that's why we have kaeshi waza. No technique is perfect, there is always a way to get out. In that point they are right, they just forget that their art isn't perfect either. I LOVE BJJ, it's fun and awesome to learn, but there are several benefits that Aikido offers that BJJ does not.

Ikkyo is good, but not the best technique on the arsenal. BJJ has the benefit of being effective and practical from the get go....Aikido takes a while to see the principles and apply...a VERY long time. Anyways, take it for what it's worth and avoid the negative comments just look at the constructive comments and try to fix it.

-Alexander
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 04:05 PM   #8
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,439
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Quote:
Chris Lacey wrote: View Post
The above indicates to me that the thread is quickly degenerating.
I don't see it that way, and since I know the author of the statement you chose as an example, and there is no one in Aikido that I respect more, I think you may have misunderstood. There is a difference between a well-researched opinion stated frankly, even if it's not "party line", and an off-the-cuff condescension.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 04:15 PM   #9
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

The discussion is very relevant. In the dojo where I train (Imaizumi Sensei) we have always tested the pin to insure that we are learning how to immobilize the person. Dean raised a very good point. My teacher has always emphasized separating the joint in order to apply forces in two directions that really immobilize the elbow. He has taught us a variety of ways to pin the arm and the person so that the person should not be able to escape without seriously injuring themselves. The down-body leg should mimic a knee strike into the lower ribs, or knee in the kidneys. There are a variety of ways to both immobilize and/or severely injure the person with a strike. Without practicing the locks and strikes, people will never fully learn how to finish the move.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 11:54 PM   #10
Chris Lacey
 
Chris Lacey's Avatar
Dojo: Aiki Institute of Spokane Roshinkan Aikido Dojo
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
Chris, I understand where you're coming from, but to be fair that poster could've absolutely come to that conclusion from a fairly educated / aware standpoint.

EDIT: and as I expected, it was. From a 5th dan Aikidoka, Stanley Pranin. Did you even read the message?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=123
Yes I did read the article. The article I do not have issue with. What I do have issue with are the prepubescent "flames" in the topic thread. I was merely suggesting that perhaps that was not the best thing to quote from the article and that perhaps there may have been a better quotation from the article to illustrate the point.

We learn to strike and when learning any new technique where a strike is needed. As when learning all new things we start slow and then, "kick it up a notch" until we can feel the energy appropriately.

As to the Pin or finish....well..I don't know enough about BJJ to comment on that.

Although I did chuckle at the statement "Criticizing Aikido techniques for not being "effective" is sort of like criticizing a Japanese tea ceremony for being an inefficient way to make a cup of tea."

I will attempt to be more clear in the future, and I apologize for any miscommunication on my part.

Be safe and Be well,
Chris

--------
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
--------
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 09:26 AM   #11
edtang
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Yes, do be more clear in the future, because quite frankly, you came across as just as condescending and close minded as you accused the discussion thread of being. Compared to other Aikido discussions elsewhere on the Internet there was barely any flaming or style chest thumping. It's a realistic, honest discussion about the pin / lock, and the Pranin quote is very relevant to question the striking aspect of some Aikido training, because it leads directly to the hold.

Just because someone presents a viewpoint of Aikido that's contrary to what you want to read doesn't mean that "they don't understand Aikido." Do you claim to understand it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2008, 07:18 AM   #12
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
Location: Sunderland
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 124
England
Offline
Smile Re: The "Aikido Pin"

Hi All.
Interesting discussion.
In my experience there is a great variation of opinions and attitudes to different martial arts. Lots of factors influence opinions - mentality, age, maturity, intelligence, peer pressure, ego, attitude, respect - lack of, ignorance etc.
One thing most arts teach (or should teach) is respect and tolerance, also never underestimate anyone or take anything foregranted - what you see is not always what you get!
In the past i have shared dojo's with other arts - the so called 'more direct, positive and 'better', more usefull' martial arts'. Where the odd comment as to the 'uselessness' of aikido as a fighting art have been overheard - the individuals assuming that everyone on my tatami only did aikido. When in fact a large number of my students are very well equipt with multi art skills, some to a high level.
These multi art skills can be easily employed within aikido, though as those in the know will understand, the potential of aikido alone as a combative system is frightening. I dont think any amount of discussion will get rid of the 'martial slagging' but we can but try to try to improve perceptions. As far as i am concerned ALL martial arts are good, if practiced with a good heart and in a 'positive' fashion. (Some people will think the previous sentence naive but I think age and experience will change this perception). I presently organise an annual Marts festival to raise funds for Cancer Research UK and over the past eight years well over 20 different arts have taken part. All of which now have a healthy respect and a better understanding of each others arts. Maybe thats the way forward?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Issue of "Aikido East" USAF Online Newsletter AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 01-31-2006 01:01 PM
Article: "Aikido Offers Combined Benefits for Mind, Body" AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 2 10-05-2005 01:13 PM
"Aikido is not a martial art" Roy General 22 08-30-2005 08:31 PM
Latest Issue of "Aikido East" Now Available AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 6 05-30-2005 01:00 AM
"Aikido Terminology" AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 12 12-09-2004 11:29 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:35 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate