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Old 03-01-2008, 08:44 PM   #76
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Christian Schnarr wrote: View Post
Are we talking about "who didn't adapt the ideas of Tohei is not qualified for this discussion"?
Kokyu in kokyu-nage can not be discussed in technical terms?
Kokyu and Ki is something more than physics?
Ki and jutsu are terms which don't fit together?
Christian:

Would you mind formulating whatever it is that you're trying to say in a more cogent manner? Thanks.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:45 PM   #77
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Erick,
I have to say that I am reminded of a concept that states that when two explanations can be used to delineate a process, take the one that is simplest as the one closest to the truth.
As I was trying to lay out in an earlier response -- simplicity is a relative concept; it depends on what one intends to accomplish. While a hammer is a very simple tool, it would be a rather complex and relatively ineffective thing to get a hammer to drive a screw. Or cut wood. Or if you do manage to do it the result is contrary to the nature of the tool, and the problem, i.e. -- not aiki.

This is not a place for what I do in the dojo, one of the reasons I avoid rising to the bait of meaningless online physical "tests." This is abstract, where the dojo is concrete. We should use it in line with its nature. It has uses that are as necessary as the dojo is. For this Sagawa, who has been spoken of in these discussions, was quite "clear" (pun intended) that people have to think hard about these things. I'm doing my bit of that, in my way. No one ever seems to get that distinction with me in these discussions, even though I have said it numerous times in various ways. Sagawa says it better than I can, so maybe people will understand when he says it:
Quote:
Sagawa: "Clear Power" wrote:
Indeed, most important is that you keep on thinking. If you don't you cease to have any good thoughts. If you continue to think, then a new thought will pop into your head! And then you must write this thought down immediately so that you may try it out, otherwise you will forget it later. Writing this down is key.
You (the Author) are always thinking about math, so you should be able to do even better work as you go on. The secret is in always thinking about it. The reason no one progresses or gets any better, stronger is because no one thinks. They forget about what they do in between practices. It has to become a part of your life.
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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I've trained with both Mike S and Rob John (and Akuzawa). There is absolutely nothing about their explanations which is complex. You get direct, body centered feedback. They can feel what you do and tell you exactly what you are doing with your body and how you might change that so as to get more from your movement with less effort.
I am glad to hear it, and have I ever said I doubted them or anyone? Here I address physical understandings, I do not contest practical actions.

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
My problem with your explanation of what is happening in kokyu power is that I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.... I get not one iota of an idea how I might improve my technique or develop my kokyu power from this explanation. ... Explanation which you have to totally comprehend what is being described before you can understand the explanation isn't useful at all.... But I am going with the simple body centered explanations every time because they are helpful rather than making my head hurt trying to understand them.
Heck, they make my head hurt - so I relieve the pressure here, more often that not. But that is sort of the point of training, is it not, to exceed prior boundaries of capability, comprehension and connection. Koans are useful only insofar as we continue to fail to understand them. I actually train in much more the manner you suggest: "not here - there," "this shape, not that shape" feel this, don't feel that" "do this, not that" etc. I agree.

You, of all people, have been in the forefront of identifying the aiki-bunny disease, confronting it honestly, and thus affiliation with folks in this mode of training. But, this was my question. Like the title of my blog: "But why?" Ask yourself that. Why is there this problem? Why did it happen? Why in some places and not in others?

It is all well and good to do medieval medicine, [we did this and the patient survived.] Of course, it may be that the patient recovered on his own, so the post hoc fallacy lingers. Sagawa speaks to this implied impatience to get to the desired result also: "You must train the body, think and have the techniques 'seep out' from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while innovating yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn't nearly enough time."

The bottom line is unless you understand the cause, you do not have a treatable diagnosis -- you have palliative care in the hope that patient can recover on his own. Which may be all that is required, or at least, we have no way of knowing why it gets better, if we do not know why it occurred.

I think at least one part of the cause is a lack of native understanding of the things we are doing, in terms that our society has at least a passing understanding of. Why? Because we think in our native culture. Mike actually tries this, describing things in analogies like springs and vectors. These have serious problems if meant to be applied as rigorous physical models in the context of aiki. But, within situational limits they are commonplace enough to provoke useful images for a moment of training.

But how much better if we had an actual physical system of knowledge in our Western terms of what is meant by the concept of ki no kokyu. Then we do not have analogy but physically real information. That would make it not situationally practical but applicable in any framework, and extendable into other areas of training we have not encountered before.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:47 PM   #78
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Yea, Mark is the guy who first got me turned on to this stuff. That video is good, but has been around a while. Mark and I have been working on the stuff in that video for a while now and I would really like to see more.
Benjamin, why don't you try, as an experiment, going and insulting Ikeda Sensei and then trying to get him to teach you more. Let me know if it works. I've never tried it before because I thought it might close some doors for me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:56 PM   #79
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think you're still trying to frame the debate in terms of what you think you know and perceive. ... I told you a long time ago that this subject of the ki/kokyu skills is only a "everyone's take on it is equally valid" thing to people who still don't know and who can't conceive that there might be something they don't know.
I think, Mike, that you spend far too much time telling me what I think, conceive, perceive, think and know. And to little purpose, since you do not even accurately represent what I have stated openly.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:57 PM   #80
ChS_23
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Straight Face Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Would you mind formulating whatever it is that you're trying to say in a more cogent manner?
I'm questioning...not saying...
...I doubt that I got your and Georgs points right...
...but I want to understand...
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:12 PM   #81
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Erm... I could be wrong, but "ki no kokyu" doesn't make any sense in Japanese.
So Tohei's book "Ki no kokyu ho" was a method (ho) of doing something that makes no sense? Got it. Thanks. Is this a running theme? Or is it the point to prove that statements in Japanese can be read in one an only one way? Onegaishimasu, ne?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:21 PM   #82
Upyu
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
So Tohei's book "Ki no kokyu ho" was a method (ho) of doing something that makes no sense? Got it. Thanks. Is this a running theme? Or is it the point to prove that statements in Japanese can be read in one an only one way? Onegaishimasu, ne?
Uh no dude...
I quoted your "ki no kokyu" as making no sense.
"Ki no kokyu ho" makes perfect sense.
(From a purely Japanese-language" standpoint)

Trust me when I say you don't want to get in the japanese-language debate with me, unless you're fluent, and have experience translating a wide range of subjects
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:25 PM   #83
bkedelen
 
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

My intention recently has not been to insult you, I just disagree with the way you have brought your message to this forum. Initially I disagreed with your message, but was decisively won over by the people who have trained with you. Nevertheless this forum is not a positive place where we build each other up in part because much of your message is formulated in a way that is very discouraging to the people you have labeled as have-nots. It is my personal opinion that a "if anyone is interested, check out what I am working on here" would have been much more elegant than a "aikido in its present form is almost universally being practiced incorrectly". If you are too insulted by my criticism of your persona here to ever discuss your methods with me then I accept that and will not continue to bother you. If on the other hand you can at least agree to disagree with me about the way you present your message here, we can probably be friends, which I see as a rather aikido-esque outcome.

Last edited by bkedelen : 03-01-2008 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:57 AM   #84
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
My intention recently has not been to insult you, I just disagree with the way you have brought your message to this forum. Initially I disagreed with your message, but was decisively won over by the people who have trained with you.
I suspect there is a lot of resentment, among a few individuals, that has to do with the fact that a blunt statement of facts appeared to have been "unhierarchical and not proper Aiki-speak". But now that it appears that I may have been speaking the truth, you're willing to be friends as long as I admit first that I was wrong to barge into your turf without the proper grovelling? I appreciate that, Benjamin.
Quote:
If you are too insulted by my criticism of your persona here to ever discuss your methods with me then I accept that and will not continue to bother you.
Benjamin, I'm a pragmatist, more than anything else. Ask Mark Reeder. The last thing I'd want to do is get involved with your concerns which mostly seem to be about you and very little about how these things work. No offense. And I mean that seriously.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:55 PM   #85
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Uh no dude...
I quoted your "ki no kokyu" as making no sense.
"Ki no kokyu ho" makes perfect sense.
(From a purely Japanese-language" standpoint)

Trust me when I say you don't want to get in the japanese-language debate with me, unless you're fluent, and have experience translating a wide range of sujects
Not. Not going to be either. Chinese is my ideographic language. I only do that to rile up one of the Josh's (can't remember which one) who was poking at Pranin's translations.

But the point is we are not in a "purely Japanese-language standpoint." We speak English, with terms of art loosely drawn from a foreign tongue, like the Royal Navy speaks a loose Dutch in sailing terms, or a loose French in cooking. We feel free to steal words from any self-respecting language to mean what we damn well say they mean.

Beauty of the language, really.

My point, made elsewhere, is that the basic problem you all are complaining about is in many respects caused by a disconnect in language. The "accurate" exposition of concepts from the Japanese do not come across as balanced in English as they are in native dress. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=149 We hear the expression of complex matters such as Ki, kokyu and aiki as imprecise, and therefore fuzzy, soft -- i.e. -- far too much toward the yin. They are not expressed in our yang terms of hard science and so many people without the background in the culture take them in largely yin terms, resulting in diminishment of the concept and its practice, and the loss of balance that makes up the in-yo ho.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-03-2008 at 07:02 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:13 PM   #86
Upyu
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Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The "accurate" exposition of concepts from the Japanese do not come across as balanced in English as they are in native dress. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=149
Erm... "Ki no Kokyu-ho" isn't vague at all. If you know what "ki" is.
Anyways it still doesn't change the fact that you can't say "ki no kokyu", just like you can't say "ki no ten" or "ki no chi". You can say "Ten no Ki" or "Chi no Ki" etc, but again, there's a logic that runs through it. Do a search, you won't find anyone Japanese that would just arbitrarily say "Ki no ten" or "Ki no chi" etc.

Japanese is vague, sure, but only for people that don't have the skills Erick
It's just not really something that's open to debate, or like Mike says "here's my <xxxx something or another > take on it."

So Erick, if everyone is different and all things are not equal...(and everyone's opinion is valid) how come even though I had never met Mike, it turned out (when we met) that I was still using some of the same physical skills, even though I learned them under a teacher that had a completely different background etc in learning this stuff.

Oh wait I know...
"but your perceptions are false, you can't assume that they are accurate/dependable etc etc, you only assume they are the same because you want to believe"

Maybe one of these days you'll enlighten us with your advanced understanding by posting vids of yourself
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