Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-29-2008, 01:58 PM   #51
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Conceded. Now hook us up with some youtube videos!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 02:17 PM   #52
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Conceded. Now hook us up with some youtube videos!
Here you go...

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 02:58 PM   #53
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 636
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The question is whether an *Aikido* technique called "kokyu nage" is a kokyu nage even if you don't use kokyu-power to do it with.
No.

Without the requisite Ki skills it's all just mechanics and muscle.

Ron
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 03:33 PM   #54
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
What's funny for Benjamin is that the kind person assisting me is from Benjamin's dojo and has been intrumental in maintaining Benjamin's good health and outlook on life.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #55
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
You asked a question, and I answered it as clearly as I could. I'm really tired of your tone. You have never met me or had any interaction with me, yet you make huge leaps of logic about me. I don't appreciate that and it does little to encourage me to enter into the kind of honest and open discourse you claim to be seeking on these forums. Perhaps you need to realize that folks on these forums aren't reacting against the idea of internal skill building or improving themselves or their art, but rather to your patronizing tone and general rudeness.
Chris,
You may find this idea usefull:
"When you are correctly seated in the ideal position, even the rudest person cannot disturb you".
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 05:52 PM   #56
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
there is absolutely no reason to name the application "kokyunage" since you don't need kokyu-power to do it.
Sorry, while I may agree in principle, I didn't know it was up to us to rename what was already there.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 09:22 PM   #57
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mike Haft wrote:
Now I happen to agree with you, but you don't have any definitive neutral framework for saying that your interpretation of kokyu is more important than anyone elses (unless you wish to use your lengthy posts upon the subject here and elsewhere, but I wouldn't accept that scientifically and I don't think you would either).
I love this post Mike. This illustrates a great point. We often think our perspective is right because the perspective is ours. ... Is that work "aikido" because koky nage is an aikido technique and I am wearing a hakama in an aikido dojo? I believe so.
There is a neutral ground. Kokyu is the cyclic aspect of Ki -- Ki is simply the synthetic understanding of angular momentum (actual rotation) composed with its potential quantity, moment (potential rotation) -- i.e -- motion in stillness.

If one cares to look into it, these can be used to accurately describe (as the tradition of Ki is intended to describe) the substance and action of everything physical from the quantum level to the cosmological and everything in between. While other analytic conventions are more often used used in various physical contexts in Western terms, as a synthetic concept Ki/kokyu tracks with the decomposed physics of angular momentum/moment perfectly well.

"Unbendable arm" is simply the example of using a principle of action that does not involve bending in the technical sense, which it is to say tension and compression strains coupled in shear. To contrast, pure tensions, rotations and potentials for rotation involve no shear storage of dynamic potential energy (typical of muscular or torsional stress) . The most vulnerable aspect of any structure is in shear (muscle tension v. bone compression) and especially in torsional shear.

While lot of kokyu action involves the apparent spiralling form of the body's structures, in fact, it is not loading the structure in torsion or shear -- it is in the adaptive adoption of these spiral lines (harmonizing) that eliminates the shear or torsional stresses. The same essential shape is involved, but with different process and a very different effect. Applying it one way to cause rotations (angular momentum) can create kokyunage -- applying it in another way to manipulate moments (potential for rotations) is osae waza. If I feel torsion or shear (most call it "muscle") then it is not kokyu.

As to the nominalist controversy, I'll simply say that some kokyunage are more equal than others.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-29-2008 at 09:28 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 09:29 PM   #58
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
<snip>
Erick just get out and meet someone out there that has these skills.
(Ushiro, Ark, Dan, Mike, Sam Chin, Chen Xiao Wang (or any of the famous Chen guys))
Then come back and tell us whether it can still be explained in the manner you keep on bringing up.

One thing I'll point out is that I haven't seen anyone that's met one of these guys ever agree with your point of view after having been shown how to do it themselves
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 09:39 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Erick just get out and meet someone out there that has these skills.
(Ushiro, Ark, Dan, Mike, Sam Chin, Chen Xiao Wang (or any of the famous Chen guys))
Then come back and tell us whether it can still be explained in the manner you keep on bringing up.
Well, Rob, I think you're a generous person to offer to work with Erick after his many comments on the internet. Frankly, I've missed it if anyone has seen Erick and can attest to the fact that he's not just theorizing. Probably it would good if everyone got out there and showed their stuff as widely as possible and opened the discussions even further. I think it would be good for the community as a whole.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 09:56 PM   #60
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Erick just get out ... I haven't seen anyone that's met one of these guys ever agree with your point of view after having been shown how to do it themselves
Always with the kind invitation, Rob. And of course they don't because the fact that they have sought those who view the matter as you do so means that they are predisposed to see things as you do. I don't.

But, plainly, you do not understand my point of view. For which I find no fault -- hardly anyone else is looking at these issues in this way. Whether that is "better" or worse" depends on what works to bring improvement to the person concerned. One person posting here periodically has attempted to engage these points with me in private dicussion. While we might not entirely agree, and I have modified some of my thinking on some marginal issues in that discussion, he has not, in a friendly but rigorous discussion of these issues, demonstrated that my essential points in the observation I made is wrong or impractical in use for observation, correction and application.

Your way is no doubt pragmatic, satisfying and effective for you. I find mine likewise, and it results in progress for me. I ask no more. The kokyu I express is the same kokyu I have felt in the three lineages in which I have substantially trained. I need to feel nothing more to know what is wrong when I do it wrong, what "right" feels like, and how to correct the one and improve the other.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-29-2008 at 10:00 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 10:05 PM   #61
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Probably it would good if everyone got out there and showed their stuff as widely as possible and opened the discussions even further. I think it would be good for the community as a whole.
I like 'Sandro.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 10:26 PM   #62
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
he has not, in a friendly but rigorous discussion of these issues, demonstrated that my essential points in the observation I made is wrong
So your argument here is that since no one has proved you wrong, you're right? And you're a skilled debater?

Heck, no one has proved that all life on earth didn't originate on Mars, either. It must be so, then.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 04:25 AM   #63
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Erick Wrote:

Quote:
Always with the kind invitation, Rob. And of course they don't because the fact that they have sought those who view the matter as you do so means that they are predisposed to see things as you do. I don't.
Not entirely true. It is possible to have met with these guys, not have "drank the kool aid", and still walk away saying "interesting".

I am not going to get into the discussion of what it is or isn't scientificially or not. Personally I think there are good "simple" explainations for all this.

That is not the point, IMO.

From everything I have seen here, you are applying reductionist theory in attempt to decode or understand this or explain it. That method does not work, and I think you are missing the point to be honest, which is probably why those that have experienced this to any degree don't see your point of view or have a hard time explaining it.

If it where simply this or simply that...we would not be having this conversation over and over again....we would use reductionism, isolate, identify, and fix. We could then put the pieces back together and we would be whole in a whole new way.

Heck even Matt Thornton from SBG agrees with us there and if you really listen to what he preaches...THIS is what is wrong with the so-called TMA and especially internal arts...it is approached this way in it's methodology!

What is missing the point is continuing to do the same things over and over....AND expecting a different result!

Anyway, I am starting to digress.

I do not care what is the scientific or logical explanation of what is going on...or that it is the same or different. If it were simple...then we would not be having this conversation.

What these guys offer is methodology that is apparently working where as the methodology that many are using in aikido is not.

So, who cares about reducing or decoding...you are missing the point if you don't see what is going on with the methodology they present!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 08:41 AM   #64
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Not entirely true. It is possible to have met with these guys, not have "drank the kool aid", and still walk away saying "interesting".
I have no doubt it is interesting. But I have never yet run out of interesting things in study and training in the art. When I do, I will consider the matter more seriously.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I am not going to get into the discussion of what it is or isn't scientifically or not. ... That is not the point, IMO.
Perhaps. It is among my several points of view on the art, however. I have several others that are quite plainly NOT reductionist at all. Nor even explicitly mechanical. I don't ask anybody to agree with me. That IS beside the point. It is not necessary for me to agree with anyone else for the forum to be productive.

I'll simply ask a rhetorical question. Who in these discussions, yourself presently excepted, is more routinely interested in expecting explicit agreement to their perspectives as a precondition for discussion?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
From everything I have seen here, you are applying reductionist theory in attempt to decode or understand this or explain it. That method does not work, ...
... to accomplish what, exactly? To judge my physical art from what, among those here, is an idiosyncratic perspective on its physical action (if not so in the wider universe of discussion), is a meaningless exercise. To do that you have to show that my perspective does not result in useful improvement. I have no need ot prove otherwise. I train routinely, examine what I have done in these and in other terms, plan what I may work on and correct what does not work as well as I know it does when I do it well.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
If it where simply this or simply that...we would not be having this conversation over and over again....we would use reductionism, isolate, identify, and fix.
"Simply." Simply? I made the (admittedly expansive) statement that the features of the observable physical universe may be explained by the use of one composite or synthetic concept Angular momentum||moment -- which may be used as a substitute for the Chinese synthetic concept of qi / ki. Who said that using that singular concept as the basis for description make it the most simple or convenient in any given situation? I did say, in many settings, other analytic concepts like force, inertia, heat etc. are more convenient for pragmatic purposes in that setting. What they lack is an inherent connection between some actions that are defined differently for the purposes of analytic convenience. An example, all motion is referrable in terms of angular momentum. We call the energy transfer of bodies in contact "friction" which generates "heat," when in fact the same action can be described as the transfer of the angular momentum of gross motion at the point of contact, slowing the gross motion, by increasing the vibration (angular momentum) of the molecules at the point of contact. Synthetically, one action|potential -- angular momentum|moment. Analytically, three things, motion, friction (a force) and heat.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I do not care what is the scientific or logical explanation of what is going on...or that it is the same or different. If it were simple...then we would not be having this conversation.
If it is not simple, then foreclosing perspectives essentially on a matter of personal taste in the framework of description, is hardly productive.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
What these guys offer is methodology that is apparently working where as the methodology that many are using in aikido is not.
I don't conduct surveys of what other people are doing to know what I am doing, what I may do wrong, and knowing how to correct it because of the way I learned it.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So, who cares about reducing or decoding...you are missing the point if you don't see what is going on with the methodology they present!
I have some idea of what they are doing, but the methodology is directed at acertian problem set. One cannot judge from a self-selected body of people who have gravitated to the same methodology because (as expressed here many times) they perceive the same problem set. It is also not indicative that their problem set (and everybody has problems to resolve) is representative of people who do not share their perspective.

You wanted a different perspective, which is why you sought out this the line of training that Dan, Mike, Rob, Akuzawa etc. seem to provide. I simply suggest to you, that theirs is not the only one out there, not even within the traditional understandings of aikido. For all my work in trying to relate the Western and Eastern conceptual frameworks, I explicitly defend the traditional understanding as an intact body of knowledge, since it is a rich and organically connected source. It is not, however, accessible to most Westerners. So my efforts or others like it remain necessary. I don't pretend that my effort is yet accessible in those terms, although it is useful to me. But to make something more useful than mere simplistic analogy I have to make it first more elaborated to understand the shape by which it may ultimately be folded up more compactly and become succinct.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 09:10 AM   #65
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Wow Eric great post! My head aches as I should have had my cup o joe first but you illustrate a fundimental flaw within a certain groups line of thinking here...

Having a Fallacious Argument* as a thread topic doesn't help anyone's case either.

Suffice to say I chuckle at the idea of some here that they have a corner on the "Aiki" or "Kokyu" market.

Hopefull all of you will take a step back and realize Harmony is a better guiding principle for the framework of this discussion as opposed to Conflict.

William Hazen

*For those of you that wish to know. "Begging the Question."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 09:46 AM   #66
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Well, it's an interesting discussion and probably a necessary and expected one that will pop up continually. The real problem is that to grasp these skills academically and with a foot-in-the-door isn't that hard. Of course it takes a lot of work to go upward from there, but once someone has these skills as their own, a lot of the conversations and arguments are very obviously superfluous. Besides, it's also obvious that if someone really knows these things, the terms aren't that hard to grasp and there is no need for a fallback to incremental linear analysis, angular momentum, Brownian movement, and so on.

And of course it's pretty easy to spot who has a handle on these things "already" and who is simply trying to get rid of any "upstarts" because they rock the status quo, to mix a metaphor.

I've suggested a number of times that someone who really is already an expert on this stuff should be able to clear the deck with his knowledge and explication. That would end all of this fuss easily. William, perhaps you could be the one to do this? Erick has had a number of chances to do it, but so far it hasn't gelled.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 12:11 PM   #67
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, it's an interesting discussion and probably a necessary and expected one that will pop up continually. The real problem is that to grasp these skills academically and with a foot-in-the-door isn't that hard. Of course it takes a lot of work to go upward from there, but once someone has these skills as their own, a lot of the conversations and arguments are very obviously superfluous. Besides, it's also obvious that if someone really knows these things, the terms aren't that hard to grasp and there is no need for a fallback to incremental linear analysis, angular momentum, Brownian movement, and so on.

And of course it's pretty easy to spot who has a handle on these things "already" and who is simply trying to get rid of any "upstarts" because they rock the status quo, to mix a metaphor.

I've suggested a number of times that someone who really is already an expert on this stuff should be able to clear the deck with his knowledge and explication. That would end all of this fuss easily. William, perhaps you could be the one to do this? Erick has had a number of chances to do it, but so far it hasn't gelled.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
My solution is simple brother Mike.... All of us are students even the Founder... His discovery of where Aikido could personally lead him only stopped the day he died. He implored others like my "founder" Shoji Nishio to continue...and so I do with that spirit in mind

I have had a good learning curve with this here internet posting thingy....I used to be a rude obnoxious crashing bore certain to ruin any thread with my over the top ham handedness.

What can I say I am Irish.

Now as in the spirit of what I have learned these last 20 years both in and out of Aikido...Aiki is just one Uke and one Nage helping each other to achieve harmony...Or as we say one drunk helping another. Or another fave of mine...In order to keep it you must give it away.

Or... as Pema is apt to say "No gets out of here alive"* so why get hung up one aspect of anything if it causes you to forget why we all do this in the first place?

And finally...When playing in the sandbox with the other kids be the first to share your toys...

So you want me to write about my experiance with Aiki? Great! However, I would much rather do it in person (it's easier to explain for me) and on that note hopefully someday we'll meet and share our mutual joy of practice together.

Namaste Brother Mike.

William Hazen

Edit: *Oh I forget another fave quote of mine from my mentor The Infamous George C Conrad...Aint No Hearses Pulling U-Hauls Son!!!...So give it all you got right fooking now Ranger!

Roger that Sarn't!!! Rangers Lead the Way!!!

Last edited by Aikibu : 03-01-2008 at 12:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 05:26 PM   #68
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

All I can say is that if you are doing what you are doing and your feel it is working for you, then what is the problem?

Why would you care to discuss and debate this stuff? It would seem very pointless I would think.

That is, unless you felt that those that are choosing a certain methodology are wrong or selling snake oil of some sort!

All I can say is that, while my aikido training is very good and I am fortunate to have some very, very good teachers and exposure to many more....what I was offered to further develop my skills on an individual basis was lacking.

How can you argue with the fact that guys like Mike and Rob have provided an avenue for many of us that felt that what we were doing could be done in a better way?

It's not that they just talk about it on the internet...they travel around the world showing it and teaching it!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 05:50 PM   #69
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,624
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What's funny for Benjamin is that the kind person assisting me is from Benjamin's dojo and has been intrumental in maintaining Benjamin's good health and outlook on life.

FWIW

Mike
That kind person assisting you happens to be one of the best Aikido people in the US.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 06:26 PM   #70
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,624
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
There is a neutral ground. Kokyu is the cyclic aspect of Ki -- Ki is simply the synthetic understanding of angular momentum (actual rotation) composed with its potential quantity, moment (potential rotation) -- i.e -- motion in stillness.

If one cares to look into it, these can be used to accurately describe (as the tradition of Ki is intended to describe) the substance and action of everything physical from the quantum level to the cosmological and everything in between. While other analytic conventions are more often used used in various physical contexts in Western terms, as a synthetic concept Ki/kokyu tracks with the decomposed physics of angular momentum/moment perfectly well.

"Unbendable arm" is simply the example of using a principle of action that does not involve bending in the technical sense, which it is to say tension and compression strains coupled in shear. To contrast, pure tensions, rotations and potentials for rotation involve no shear storage of dynamic potential energy (typical of muscular or torsional stress) . The most vulnerable aspect of any structure is in shear (muscle tension v. bone compression) and especially in torsional shear.

While lot of kokyu action involves the apparent spiralling form of the body's structures, in fact, it is not loading the structure in torsion or shear -- it is in the adaptive adoption of these spiral lines (harmonizing) that eliminates the shear or torsional stresses. The same essential shape is involved, but with different process and a very different effect. Applying it one way to cause rotations (angular momentum) can create kokyunage -- applying it in another way to manipulate moments (potential for rotations) is osae waza. If I feel torsion or shear (most call it "muscle") then it is not kokyu.

As to the nominalist controversy, I'll simply say that some kokyunage are more equal than others.
Erick,
I have to say that I am reminded of a concept that states that when two explanations can be used to delineate a process, take the one that is simplest as the one closest to the truth.

I've trained with both Mike S and Rob John (and Akuzawa). There is absolutely nothing about their explanations which is complex. You get direct, body centered feedback. They can feel what you do and tell you exactly what you are doing with your body and how you might change that so as to get more from your movement with less effort. They are quite straight forward about what they do and can show you exactly how to go about training your body's structure to do it even better.

If you look at the clip with Mike and Mark, it's straight forward. clear, body centered and is immediately comprehensible to anyone doing Aikido. What isn't apparent via the video clip is what it feels like when Mike shoots that energy back at you. That's when you realize that there is some body conditioning aspect that is important. he simply doesn't feel like anything we're used to.

My problem with your explanation of what is happening in kokyu power is that I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I read it and re-read it and I can't see how it explains anything that I know how to do or what I know these guys to be doing.

I'll concede that you may know what you mean and that it may describe something you are doing quite nicely. But it might as well be Urdu for all it explains anything to me. I get not one iota of an idea how I might improve my technique or develop my kokyu power from this explanation.

So I think I come down on the side of clear, unambiguous instruction. It makes perfect sense to me that some of what we are discussing relies on a certain amount of conditioning the body to be able to run the energy in that manner with real power. But both Mike and Rob (and I assume Dan as well) can explain what is happening and what needs to be done to make it better in a way that is comprehensible and not at all obscure. In fact much of it is a "follow these simple steps and this will happen" kind of thing. Explanation that leads a person who doesn't understand towards understanding is useful. Explanation which you have to totally comprehend what is being described before you can understand the explanation isn't useful at all.

I've got a lot more time in on the mat than most of the folks here. An explanation that seems to be so obscure to me can't be very helpful to the vast majority of folks. When Rob says that you are wrong, I can't comment on that at all because I have no idea what you are saying. But I have trained with Rob and he can explain quite nicely what he is doing and I could feel that he could do it, and I could feel myself being better able to do it after his instructions.

I think it is possible to be way too much up in your head on stuff and lose the actual body centered connection to reality. Maybe you can demonstrate exactly what you are describing... I don't know. But I am going with the simple body centered explanations every time because they are helpful rather than making my head hurt trying to understand them.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 07:23 PM   #71
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So your argument here is that since no one has proved you wrong, you're right? And you're a skilled debater?
Whether I am right or wrong, rhetorical questions prove nothing, especially on arguments I have not made. Among the things that I do not understand -- is the compulsion to argue in this manner.

So, if you don't like my rubric -- find one that maps onto both systems as well or better, or show how my observation fails in some important way. It shouldn't be that hard.

So let me give you a more substantive question, since I made my proposition: What, in purely western terms, is the ki no kokyu that must exist in kokyunage?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 07:34 PM   #72
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Whether I am right or wrong, rhetorical questions prove nothing, especially on arguments I have not made. Among the things that I do not understand -- is the compulsion to argue in this manner.

So, if you don't like my rubric -- find one that maps onto both systems as well or better, or show how my observation fails in some important way. It shouldn't be that hard.

So let me give you a more substantive question, since I made my proposition: What, in purely western terms, is the ki no kokyu that must exist in kokyunage?
Erm... I could be wrong, but "ki no kokyu" doesn't make any sense in Japanese.
You could have "ki no kokyu-ho", or "breath-method of ki" implying breathing that trains Ki etc, or "Ki no nagare", "Flow of ki" etc. But "Breath of ki" doesn't make any sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 08:04 PM   #73
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What, in purely western terms, is the ki no kokyu that must exist in kokyunage?
I think you're still trying to frame the debate in terms of what you think you know and perceive. "Ki no kokyu"? You certainly don't mean what Tohei means by "ki no kokyu ho"... you're trying to go back into a discussion of techniques/waza in order to get out of the uncomfortable discussion about basics that you don't understand.

I'm not sure you understand, Erick, but I told you a long time ago that this subject of the ki/kokyu skills is only a "everyone's take on it is equally valid" thing to people who still don't know and who can't conceive that there might be something they don't know.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 08:29 PM   #74
ChS_23
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Germany
Offline
Confused Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You certainly don't mean what Tohei means by "ki no kokyu ho"...
you're trying to go back into a discussion of techniques/waza in order to get out of the uncomfortable discussion about basics that you don't understand.
this subject of the ki/kokyu skills
Are we talking about "who didn't adapt the ideas of Tohei is not qualified for this discussion"?
Kokyu in kokyu-nage can not be discussed in technical terms?
Kokyu and Ki is something more than physics?
Ki and jutsu are terms which don't fit together?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 08:34 PM   #75
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Is it kokyu-nage if you don't use kokyu-power?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What's funny for Benjamin is that the kind person assisting me is from Benjamin's dojo and has been intrumental in maintaining Benjamin's good health and outlook on life.

FWIW

Mike
Yea, Mark is the guy who first got me turned on to this stuff. That video is good, but has been around a while. Mark and I have been working on the stuff in that video for a while now and I would really like to see more.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
committed attack/sensitive ukemi paradox Janet Rosen Training 30 10-13-2005 07:18 PM
Randori Seminar with George Ledyard Sensei aikibaka131 Seminars 11 10-24-2003 12:30 AM
kokyu nage Paula Lydon Techniques 7 09-29-2002 09:48 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:49 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate