Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-01-2008, 11:25 AM   #1
Aiki x
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 27
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
[edit] Compare this video of Tissier with this video of Takeda Yoshinbu. It's fairly obvious how Tissier is throwing his weight around to power his throws. But Takeda hardly moves, it barely looks like he's doing anything at all. [/edit]
Yep Tissiers Aikido is much better than Takeda's magical flying Uke aikido.

Are some people on this forum seriously suggesting that Tissier hasn't properly understood his aikido lessons due his views on Ki? Seriously?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 01:07 PM   #2
Timothy WK
Location: Washington, DC
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 175
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Neil Harrison wrote: View Post
Yep Tissiers Aikido is much better than Takeda's magical flying Uke aikido.

Are some people on this forum seriously suggesting that Tissier hasn't properly understood his aikido lessons due his views on Ki? Seriously?
What *I* am saying is that I'm skeptical that he has "ki skills", but otherwise looks like a VERY fine Aikido-ka. I'm not trying to take anything from him.

Regarding Takeda Yoshinbu, I'm partly relying on other's testimony that his technique is stronger than it looks. But to my eyes, his uke's don't look like they're blatantly faking. They take quite a few "ungraceful" falls. People who are faking make big, sweeping movements, with pained expressions on their faces---but they don't fall awkwardly, in a manner that could potentially cause injury, like Takeda's uke's do. You only fall like that if you're being forced down.

With Tissier, anyone can intuitively see how he's doing the throw, even if they can't replicate it. You can see how he's moving his weight around, and how he's building momentum for the throw.

With Takeda, there's a slight disconnect. The falls look realistic (IMO), and you can generally see how he's doing it, but... but the throws just "shouldn't" be as powerful as they seem. It's that *slight* disconnect between Takeda's apparent movement and uke's response, the "I don't know how he's doing that" phenomenon, that's often a tell-tale of internal skill.

--Timothy Walters Kleinert

Hakuho-ryu/ Takeda-den Itto-ryu, & Wujifa qigongs
www.internal-aiki.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 04:56 PM   #3
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Neil Harrison wrote: View Post
Yep Tissiers Aikido is much better than Takeda's magical flying Uke aikido.

Are some people on this forum seriously suggesting that Tissier hasn't properly understood his aikido lessons due his views on Ki? Seriously?
Oh heresy.

Sure why not? The same thing has been seen across a number of arts among other "experienced" practitioners.
Why do you think Ushiro would say "No Kokyu(power) no Karate", not to mention his same comment about Aikido.

Again, like I said before, no one's suggesting it was "his" fault for not understanding. If he was never explicitly shown or taught it, he wouldn't know "what" to train, much less "how" to train it. By everyone's account he's a great guy, hard working etc. Which makes it even more of a shame if the goods were withheld from him.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 05:09 PM   #4
Jeremy Hulley
Dojo: Seattle School of Aikido Shinto Ryu/Seattle Icho Ryu
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Neil Harrison wrote: View Post
Yep Tissiers Aikido is much better than Takeda's magical flying Uke aikido. Seriously?
I have never taken ukemi for Tissier S. but I have take ukemi for Takeda Sensei. You are missing quite a bit of the picture.. He really does not give you much of a choice of where to go and is powerful.
There way more to it than what's shown in that clip.

Last edited by Jeremy Hulley : 03-01-2008 at 05:14 PM. Reason: edited for attitude

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 05:28 PM   #5
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

What is intriguing is that both Takeda Yoshinobu and Christian Tissier learned from the same shihan, Yamaguchi Seigo.

Last edited by CitoMaramba : 03-01-2008 at 05:39 PM.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 10:08 PM   #6
Josh Lerner
 
Josh Lerner's Avatar
Location: Renton, WA
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 80
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

What is fascinating about the clip of Takeda is that at times it looks like he's doing what Shioda does, but with much more explicit and slower use of his weight dropping. Shioda seemed to prefer dropping his weight into uke very sharply, with movements that were small enough to be sometimes almost imperceptible. Takeda uses a very relaxed connection between his hands and trunk, and then uses his legs to drop his weight straight down. It's almost like he's trying to show people that it's all about . . . dah dah daaaaah . . . using your lower body while keeping your arms as relaxed as possible so that they only transmit the forces produced by the legs. Given the fact that he keeps his spine very upright (but not stiff) and doesn't lean much to put his shoulder joints over the point of contact means either -

a) his uke are very, very compliant

or

b) his body connections are very well developed

Or, obviously, some combination of the the two.

I'm seeing none of that in the clip of Tissier, with the exception of one throw where he drops to his knees around 2:23. Almost without exception, he is throwing his uke by bending at the waist, often almost 90 degrees.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing - I've seen clips of Shioda doing that kind of from-the-hip-body-lean also. Just a difference in body mechanics. But Shioda did that in addition to being able to drop his weight into uke without leaning like that. Maybe Tissier can also; I don't know. If he can, either he's not doing it in that clip, or he is and I don't have the perceptual skills to see it.

Another interesting thing about the clip of Takeda is that everything he does is down and in towards his center - he isn't projecting his uke outwards much. My vague guess would be that, and the way he drops his weight, point to a remaining influence of Daito-ryu, but I don't know enough about Daito-ryu to back that up with any evidence. Just a guess.

Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 11:21 PM   #7
SteveTrinkle
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International
Location: Ambler, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 227
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I have never taken ukemi for Tissier S. but I have take ukemi for Takeda Sensei. You are missing quite a bit of the picture.. He really does not give you much of a choice of where to go and is powerful.
There way more to it than what's shown in that clip.
Me too. I agree with Mr. Hulley. Have you (Mr. Harrison) taken ukemi from Takeda Sensei? I have. I think it's probably less than worthless to comment on any of these teachers after only watching some video clip. Also, have you ever trained with some of Takeda Sensei's 5th and 6th dan senior students? If you have the opportunity, you will know that they are not magically flying. The kind of ukemi they learn makes them extremely solid yet flexible.

I can have no comment about Tissier Sensei's aikido as I have never trained with him. I have been training for only 13 years so I still must feel someone's aikido to have even the slightest comment. Maybe I am just not at the level where I can understand by merely watching a video clip.

Respectfully,
Steve Trinkle

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 11:23 PM   #8
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Having been on the receiving end of some of Takeda's senior students and Takeda himself, I can definitively say that:

1. Postulation (a) is not entirely true. Sensitive, yes - compliant no. That said, all his senior students have very good ukemi - whatever that means...

2. he IS showing people what (he believes) it's all about - I remember him once asking "what if you could not use your shoulders and arms? would you still be able to do aikido?" (or something to that effect). The immediate question obviously is - if you're not using your arms and shoulders, then WHAT are you using?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 09:09 AM   #9
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

I watched the video of this Takeda fellow, and read desription of his senior guys. I don't think his body looks as connected as written here but...here's a different thought.
1. Do you suppose that Mr. Takeda could throw another Mr. Takeda like that?
2. Were teacher and student exhibiting power and a trained body, would anything like -that- demo even exist anymore?
3. Were teacher and student exhibiting power and a trained body would the ukemi ever look like that?
For some of the folks who have visited here-you have seen the results of more experienced guys trying to throw someone with a connected body in more intense judo/jujutsu type throws then aikido and what happens to them when they do... So
4. How would someone with a connected and trained body respond to someone's Aikido waza anything?
5. What waza would "take" -lets use Andy- what Aikido waza would take Andy's balance? Even without him hitting or kicking them?
6. You have seen people get rocketed back up on their feet from seated wrist grabbing waza and give them whiplash or concussion from a wrist grab-where or how would Kokyu work while trying to be applied? Nage would be undone at the moment of contact and just stare at you as you sent their effort back into them. In time, many will be able to do things like this.
So, what have you decided will be your response when it does happen?
Which leads me to
7. In all of everyone's new ventures what do you suppose is going to happen in the future when someone tries their various levels of Kokyu...on you, and nothing happens? What will it do to the "look" of your Aikido when people simply have no ability to throw you or lock you- seated or otherwise? When your attack is simply too much, and overcomes them and controls anything they try to do. Since your center is retained and will not be able to be manipulated by these folks -what will they be left with to do except to be forced to blend with yours?
Has anyone seen it beginning to happen? Have you thought of what will happen as your body improves?
In the end, what will your new body do? What will it mean, seated or otherwise in your aikido? Moreover since most peoples definition of aikido is screwed, and you now know its true-will you, as a sub group of men be ostracized for not "blending" with these lower level master class teachers with disconnected bodies? Or be recognized for the superior skills you will then possess?

And returning back to the Takeda and Tissier commentary.

Again, as I am want to say over and over. Forget the teacher! Otherwise you miss an undeniable truth.
Watch the uke.
Talk about the connections of the UKE.
Talk about the structure of the UKE.
How do you suppose most everyone you know will fair in trying to accomplish aikido, with an attack offered by, say Wang Shu shin?
Who woud throw who?
Who would blend with whom?
What is Ai-ki-do then?
Should be an interesting ten years.

Last edited by DH : 03-02-2008 at 09:17 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 10:16 AM   #10
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I watched the video of this Takeda fellow, and read desription of his senior guys. I don't think his body looks as connected as written here but...here's a different thought.
1. Do you suppose that Mr. Takeda could throw another Mr. Takeda like that?
2. Were teacher and student exhibiting power and a trained body, would anything like -that- demo even exist anymore?
3. Were teacher and student exhibiting power and a trained body would the ukemi ever look like that?
For some of the folks who have visited here-you have seen the results of more experienced guys trying to throw someone with a connected body in more intense judo/jujutsu type throws then aikido and what happens to them when they do... So
4. How would someone with a connected and trained body respond to someone's Aikido waza anything?
5. What waza would "take" -lets use Andy- what Aikido waza would take Andy's balance? Even without him hitting or kicking them?
6. You have seen people get rocketed back up on their feet from seated wrist grabbing waza and give them whiplash or concussion from a wrist grab-where or how would Kokyu work while trying to be applied? Nage would be undone at the moment of contact and just stare at you as you sent their effort back into them. In time, many will be able to do things like this.
So, what have you decided will be your response when it does happen?
Which leads me to
7. In all of everyone's new ventures what do you suppose is going to happen in the future when someone tries their various levels of Kokyu...on you, and nothing happens? What will it do to the "look" of your Aikido when people simply have no ability to throw you or lock you- seated or otherwise? When your attack is simply too much, and overcomes them and controls anything they try to do. Since your center is retained and will not be able to be manipulated by these folks -what will they be left with to do except to be forced to blend with yours?
Has anyone seen it beginning to happen? Have you thought of what will happen as your body improves?
In the end, what will your new body do? What will it mean, seated or otherwise in your aikido? Moreover since most peoples definition of aikido is screwed, and you now know its true-will you, as a sub group of men be ostracized for not "blending" with these lower level master class teachers with disconnected bodies? Or be recognized for the superior skills you will then possess?

And returning back to the Takeda and Tissier commentary.

Again, as I am want to say over and over. Forget the teacher! Otherwise you miss an undeniable truth.
Watch the uke.
Talk about the connections of the UKE.
Talk about the structure of the UKE.
How do you suppose most everyone you know will fair in trying to accomplish aikido, with an attack offered by, say Wang Shu shin?
Who woud throw who?
Who would blend with whom?
What is Ai-ki-do then?
Should be an interesting ten years.
Hi Dan,

Assuming that you can trump (kokyu wise at least) most anybody at your place (I assume this because that is probably why most of the folks there started training with you.) Do you teach/train by thwarting every attempted "attack" or "defense" that your guys offer? From what I've read of you, and about you, I find it hard to believe that you simply knock your guys over when they're training to ground a standing push simply because you can.

So, assuming you don't, aren't you "dialing back" so that you challenge them without repeatedly blowing them away?

If so, then isn't this paradigm a normal part of the training process?

If so, couldn't that be also applied in a demonstration?

It would be an interesting demonstration to see two equally trained individuals (if they where highly skilled and highly conditioned) interact but I doubt that it would be understood and/or appreciated by most.

I'm imagining the old story of the two kenshi that stood and sweated for a lengthy period (for drama I suppose) and finally bowed to each other. Or the story of Ueshiba and the Master Marksman who "squared off" and . . . well Ushiba bowed out of that one didn't he?

Anyway I'm thinking if Dan #1, and Dan #2 squared off it would be kind of boring. But we aren't talking about squaring off we're talking about a demo, so maybe Dan #1 would agree with Dan #2 to "dial it back" during the demo so that the audience could relate to what would happen?

On the other hand perhaps you are saying that if the demonstrator has Kokyu skills it should be evident, and if he is teaching Kokyu skills that should be evident in his students, and if the teacher is better developed (or they are equally developed and the demonstrator is a better technician/tactician) certainly his student should be able to come on with whatever he has and the demonstrator can demonstrate his superior ability?

Or perhaps if this is a Kokyu demo obviously it would be more impressive if he were to demonstrate superior Kokyu with someone else with Kokyu?

Or finally, how about, judge a teacher's ability (knowledge and teaching ability) not by the teacher but by the students?

[Obviously I'm assuming that you are requesting public feedback rather than using this forum to communicate exclusively with your own guys.]

I'd be interested to read a clarification of your perspective. I'm not disputing it, just trying to sort it out.

Thanks,

Allen
(p.s. I kind of rambled but maybe you can pick up the thread of my inquiry.)

Last edited by Allen Beebe : 03-02-2008 at 10:18 AM. Reason: added "would"

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 10:27 AM   #11
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Allen
I am in complete agreement with you. I think you mistakenly read it as a critisism. It wasn't. I offered it for those who are training this way to start to think of future dilemas. And secondly to reconsider-if they haven't already-what they are really watching.
At a point it is interesting to consider just what is a demonstration of...what.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 10:33 AM   #12
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Dan,

I just wanted to see if I was reading you correctly.

Thanks,
Allen

(BTW, I appreciated this morning's post to Rob on the the other thread. It seemed well thought out and even handed.)

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 01:13 PM   #13
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 802
Offline
Yamguchi Seigo's ukemi

Small comment: I took many classes with Yamaguchi Seigo. He REQUIRED a particular type of ukemi, and would get very angry and/or would subsequently ignore you if you didn't do this way. In essence, he used the uke as a living bokken - he was doing suburi with people. One of my closest friends and aikido teachers - Kuwamori Yasunori was "half" a judo man, and "half" an aikido man, in a really wonderful way. His dojo was under Yamaguchi's aegis, and thus, he would frequently go to his classes. One day he was practicing with Kono Yoshinori (who at that time was only an aikidoka, not having branched out into his own creative expressions). We used to call Kono "Gollum," for reasons related both to character and the way he moved. Anyway, Kuwamori was someone who only wanted to fall when he was legitimately thrown, and he was not falling for Kono, who was gesturing properly, but that was all. On the other hand, Kuwamori was quite happily slamming Kono repeatedly to the mat, and Kono couldn't do anything about it, except get to his feet, and start talking - telling what Kuwamori had done wrong when he slammed him to the mat.
Yamaguchi sensei simply lost it, yelling that Kuwamori was doing everything wrong - uke and tori both. Kuwamori was so furious at being embarassed publicly, he almost changed affiliations to another shihan, a huge thing. (And Mr. Kono was very lucky that Yasunori had a flaming temper that cooled rapidly into laughter at himself).
There is no doubt that Yamaguchi, within a specific skill area, was brilliant. He was a technical genius, and highly intellectual. But the full effect of his technique relied on a particular type of ukemi. This style of ukemi does develop an incredible sensitivity to what the other person is doing, because you learn to move to make the technique work. However, he did not, to my knowledge, teach in a way that one then "transferred" this sensitivity to a) dealing with resistance b) sensing what an attacker in freestyle was doing and neutralizing him (go no sen). I found it a pseudo sen-no-sen - in other words, although he apparently anticipated intent and what "there first," in fact, the uke was "there first" in order to make it happen.
Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 03-02-2008 at 01:19 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 03:11 PM   #14
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Dan,

I just wanted to see if I was reading you correctly.

Thanks,
Allen

(BTW, I appreciated this morning's post to Rob on the the other thread. It seemed well thought out and even handed.)
Your welcome
Actually you could write a book on the topic of Ukemi and the facts and effects of realism in training within a live or fixed environment. And contrary to many opinions I don't think it is fully or even substantially understood by most martial artists. Add in this type of power and it increases the puzzle as the uses of power are more complex than may be seen or covered in a basic venue. There are of course things you learn to do, but then you can add years of pursuing power in various environments that some folks may not have explored or are not interested in. Where the various paths meet or overlap is interesting as well.

The other post on the training forum -freeform bokken for aiki flow- is for a few guys pondering where this stuff all fits in. Some still doubt it has any value in a live environment outside of Aikido. They are simply wrong, Rob's post posited some interesting comparisons, so I thought I'd explain and demonstrate what this type of power can do outside of a "basics" seminar if one were predisposed to some comparisons. I've done it before with a room full of guys, but not with Rob. He is very inquisitive and a thinker as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 04:50 PM   #15
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Hi Dan,

Thanks for clarifying your intent. Like Allen, I also read your post in the same light.

Those were certainly thought-provoking questions, and I think you addressed the underlying issue at the end - with regards to the connection and structure of uke. Although, I think it should be noted that it was a demonstration, and there is a certain amount of complicity on uke's part for the purposes of the demonstration.

To my memory, it was certainly quite different in training. I recall I would often push him where he sat or stood, and he would just sit/stand there, bounce me off and chuckle to himself. But back then I sucked, and I probably still suck. In any case, I enjoyed taking ukemi from him and at the time understood intuitively that it wasn't so much what he was or wasn't doing, but what I as uke needed to be doing - to build better connection and structure. But I couldn't push him over back then, and probably still couldn't now. IOW, there will always be a gap and disparity between a teacher and student, unless something were to change dramatically.

And in light of your questions and Ellis' incisive comments regarding Yamaguchi's methods, there is certainly a big mental and physical leap from this type of ukemi to nage waza - particularly in dealing with resistance or in a freestyle venue.

Certainly something worth thinking about....

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 04:58 PM   #16
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

You guys, for the record, should perhaps clarify whether you're referring to "Rob John" or "Rob Liberti" so that people who aren't fully aware of all the perspectives don't get confused.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 05:17 PM   #17
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You guys, for the record, should perhaps clarify whether you're referring to "Rob John" or "Rob Liberti" so that people who aren't fully aware of all the perspectives don't get confused.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Rob Liberti was the gentleman whom Dan quoted.

Rob John doesn't need this kind of low level advice since I TAUGHT HIM EVERYTHING HE KNOWS!*

*about using his shoulders. I'm somewhat of an expert at that!

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 12:17 AM   #18
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Well it appears I must now go to Japan and kill Rob John so I can be the only Rob. (There were seriously 14 kids named "Rob" on my highschool football team. So I'm just kind of used to it. If it will clear things up feel free to refer to me as "Ellis" from now on.)

I've personally been slammed to the ground by both Takeda sensei and Dan Harden so I'm in a unique position to compare. Both have strange power that is a bit different from each other. Takeda sensei is a bit flat footed and he can do that disappear when I attack him thing that just confuses me. I'll tell you this - Dan's teaching is a LOT clearer! I believe Takeda sensei's approach is to exhaust you until you have no movement muscles left with which to cheat and get you training OTHER things. I personally prefer Dan's more direct approach. I believe I may end up teaching aikido as a combination of both approaches - just because training that exhaustive way is very fun and gets a lot of stress out.

I think aikido demos are about showing people what they are doing with the energy given. You are trying to cleary show yang/yin - or something like 'take it in, turn it around, send it back, with nothing added or lost' - type of thing. Was aikido ever about dealing with someone who could attack like Dan? I don't know. We don't design all hand guns to be able to go through all types of body armour for instance... My understanding is that Takeda sensei had some sort of spiritual awakening so I'm not sure how interested he would be in taking his aikido in the direction of dealing with internal skills powering MMA type attacks. His approach on aikido transforms some people for the better and there is something very worth while in that. Maybe it should be a requirement before we power up a bunch of people with internal skills and risk developing some dangerous people with more power than compassion. (I don't know. I'm nearly delerious as I am writing.) I can say this. Having been recently dazzled by Dan's power, I am still amazed by how powerful and seemingly effortless Takeda sensei's ikkyo was. I think I have a much better chance of duplicating that kind of power now that I am training internal skills with Dan.

It was interesting to read Ellis's comments about Yamaguchi sensei's classes. Was that the case in Honbu only or in his private dojo as well? I heard similar things about Osawa sensei (senior) in Honbu dojo - that people would resist as ukes and be dismissed to the corner to practice rolling forward. Regardless, at least in Honbu, if that was their preferred training method, then so be it. Starting to sound to me like the #1 and #2 guy at Honbu at the time agreed to a common rule about dealing with resistance. Or was that just part of keeping the WA.

Rob
(I considered signing my post "Ellis". But seriously, can we maybe refer to Rob John as "RJ" or "Rob J" and I can be "RL" or "Rob L"...)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 12:57 AM   #19
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
(I considered signing my post "Ellis". But seriously, can we maybe refer to Rob John as "RJ" or "Rob J" and I can be "RL" or "Rob L"...)
RJ happens to be my cousins name


Be interesting to hear what happens to you in a year Rob..er..L. See if you can throw a wrench in Takeda's technique (not to be an ass, just to see if you can deal with it) with your newfound skills and see how he responds
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 01:56 AM   #20
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
We don't design all hand guns to be able to go through all types of body armour for instance.
Er... you mean bullets...right?

Quote:
I'm not sure how interested he would be in taking his aikido in the direction of dealing with internal skills powering MMA type attacks.
He never was, and I doubt he will now... if you didn't play with him the way he likes to play, he'll just ignore you and go play with someone else who will.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 09:37 AM   #21
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

Thanks for clarifying your intent. Like Allen, I also read your post in the same light.

Those were certainly thought-provoking questions, and I think you addressed the underlying issue at the end - with regards to the connection and structure of uke. Although, I think it should be noted that it was a demonstration, and there is a certain amount of complicity on uke's part for the purposes of the demonstration.

snip.....But I couldn't push him over back then, and probably still couldn't now. IOW, there will always be a gap and disparity between a teacher and student, unless something were to change dramatically.

And in light of your questions and Ellis' incisive comments regarding Yamaguchi's methods, there is certainly a big mental and physical leap from this type of ukemi to nage waza - particularly in dealing with resistance or in a freestyle venue.

Certainly something worth thinking about....
Ellis and I share a common perception about ukemi. Not the least of which is one particular aspect I have highlighted for years. In a demonstration, I ALWAYS watch the uke and his attack, then at the moment of contact, what happens to his frame.
Watch Koryu jujutsu, Aikido, Aikijujutsu,
Then watch Judo, Then watch push hands
Then go fight someone.
Its simply not the same. Retaining an aggressive modality before during and after an attack changes everything in both parties. Were one to -then- include a structured frame, then flowing internal power through various changes in that dynamic you will utterly change the way Aikido is currently practiced. Further the change would not look like Ueshibas aikido either.
Why?
Back then only one held the keys, the other? Not so much! Were you to actively teach both parties, one would have to virtually shut off and go counter to all his skills to make the waza look like aikido waza. One might be averse to doing so and it would gradually morph to push hands/ jujutsu with aiki power shared.
So what were we really seeing back then? Power displayed against weaker poorly developed external artists.
What's changed?
In the Japanese arts the most common defensive aspect, thee corner stone of most Japanese arts is:
to one-side weight the attacker-
That tactic is prevalent even in the more "live" judo/jujutsu waza. As a premise for kuzushi this would be almost eliminated from the aikido/aikijujutsu paradigm were one to train all with proper structure. Naturally I haven't covered hitting and kicking in line with whole body movement either. To thrust in a throw, can be more than a thrust when it comes to ribs, hips, necks, heads and faces.

On Yamaguchi and cooperation in these arts.
I agree on your point Chris except to say once again who is Uke? Who is receiving who technique and how?
There is no use revisiting old arguments here, but suffice to say
a. It is my contention that Takeda and all is top men-to include Ueshiba were in fact taking ukemi as *thee* way to do their aiki(_______). The attacker was Nage.
It is why Takeda appropriately called his art (hence Ueshiba's and everyone elses-a defensive art. That said he readily acknowledged it was powerful and dangerous and single blow could kill.
Which is exactly, to the letter, what Ueshiba said.
I think they not only knew what they were saying, but by every account available they also knew what they were doing.

Anyway, my point is to reconsider what we "see" or should I say are now able to see -and read (Tissiers interview).with a new point of view with internal training
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 10:11 AM   #22
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Hi, kinda late to the party, busy weekend.

Quote:
Neil Harrison wrote: View Post
Yep Tissiers Aikido is much better than Takeda's magical flying Uke aikido.
and

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And returning back to the Takeda and Tissier commentary.

Again, as I am want to say over and over. Forget the teacher! Otherwise you miss an undeniable truth.
Watch the uke.
Talk about the connections of the UKE.
Talk about the structure of the UKE.
I have a couple semi-unrelated things I wanted to get out about these two quotes. I'll do my best not to get too meandering...

First, I think with Neil's comments we're seeing one of the real problems with the lack of any explicit delineation between the gradations between jujutsu waza and aiki waza within Aikido. There seems to be the (perhaps correct?) assumption that all waza in Aikido is aiki waza. Personally I think to get at what aiki waza is (within Aikido), one has to have a good foundation in jujutsu/judo. Then as one learns more about the more subtle but powerful "stuff" (whatever terms you wanna use here) those basic jujutsu forms can take on deeper meaning as true aiki waza. I believe what Tissier is demonstrating in this video (and all the video I've ever seen of him) is jujutsu waza. I don't know if his waza has an aiki side that he doesn't like to show or what. I'm not claiming to be the aiki-police here, I'm talking about how *I* define jujutsu/aiki etc... To be clear, I'm also not saying he's not doing Aikido, he's certainly demonstrating a portion of what is considered Aikido. Conversely, I think Takeda Sensei is coming at it from the other angle. I think he's trying to go straight for (what he feels) is aiki. I think he's isolating the interaction down to an opportunity to study the moment of connection. I will say, that for being as small a man as he is, Takeda can transmit a HUGE ammount of force into you. Like Ellis mentions WRT Yamaguchi Sensei, he too expects a certain kind of ukemi. I have played *just a little bit* with adjusting my ukemi/attack with him to feel what he does and (like Dan says) it does wind up looking different. He would usually emit a little, "Oh...." and just kind of "turn it up" and meet you. It wasn't like he even needed to change what he was doing, it was more like he expects a certain ammount of the connection to be coming from uke and if it isn't there, he just connects in a bit deeper. I think it's important to note, that he never felt it necessary to just drop the technique he was initially showing and go to something else, he was always able to make whatever he wanted to do happen and with only a very subtle shift. I should be clear, that I never did this to be rude or prove anything, I was just trying to get as much information from the interaction as I could. He never seemed bothered by it, more amused at me. But then I could always play the, "Oh, I'm not very good at this kind of ukemi" card. It should be pointed out too, that this has to be the mellowest demo I've ever seen of Takeda, this is him on about 3 on the Takeda-o-meter. I saw one demo where some of his long time students said he was on about 7 and people were literally flying 2+ tatami lengths from his throws. Yet during the same demo, he was able to pull up one of my friends who was only a blue belt and fling her around nearly as spectacularly.

But, let's be clear here. *Everyone* has a certain paradigm that they are training in. Tissier may look more "martial" with his big clear powerful movements, but I'm looking at uke too, and there's a lot of information there about what the interaction is like. I never see uke's neck snap much in any of the clips I've seen of him. Similarly, they almost always have at least one foot completely flat and stable on the floor. They are basically balanced. If he let go of them, they would be able to continue standing there. If you watch Takeda Sensei's uke, their shoulders come up, they are struggling for balance, on their toes and you often see a slight "snap" to the neck during part of the movement. It's been my experience that almost everything that uses (again, what *I* define) to be aiki, generates at least a slight shock along the spine/neck that is visible. You can see this really clearly in this video of Ark.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. Do you suppose that Mr. Takeda could throw another Mr. Takeda like that?
I'd say yes, because I have no doubt that he would enter into the encounter fairly and within the context of the lesson. But then, that's how I like to think of 'good' ukemi, more so than super pretty falls. When I've taught recently, I've had to beg the folks I was working with to give me a hard time. Just in the same way that Takeda's students expect a certain ukemi style to study the lessons he's presenting, I'm looking for a certain kind of interaction too. I don't have much use for extremely sensitive or reactive ukemi with the stuff I'm looking at. It's one of the reasons our "little" Samoan Fritz is so nice to have around!

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 03-03-2008 at 10:16 AM.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 11:50 AM   #23
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Hi Chris
I'm in agreement with all of your points, but I think you are either missing one of mine or I failed at defining it.

Of course two of equal power can "pull off" a demonstration if they are both vested in making the waza look like the waza. Its why I mentioned differentiating between classic jujutsu, aikijujutsu, or any art where you "do" a waza, and then compare it to judo/ jujutsu or even push hands where you are only "vested" in working your stuff and winning over the other guy.
In that venue both would be trying to be fully -on.
So in a complete sense-there is no way someone with good structure, and with good power and experience in using it is going to attack a teacher and said teacher be able to pull off anything that looks like that demo-isn't gonna happen. The attacking power would be absorbed and changed to whatever degree (dependant on mutual skills), and the returning power would likewise be absorbed and/or changed dependant on skill. And this in a heartbeat. It would continue in a grappling sense interspersed with strikes or kicks till either someone was launched, drawn in and controlled or hit. But nowhere would you see clean Japanese style Ukemi IE attack, fly, attack, drop, attack, roll, wIth equal men.
Not that it is a critisism. Its an observation of what is being done thats all.
1.You are either vested in doing a waza together
2. Vested in trying out a training tool together
3. or you are in a contest.

I guess the main thrust of my point will be best examined and yaked about years from now when the guys training this way start hitting people like trucks, or tossing people off or downing them with ease while their own center is retained throughout. Either in attack or defense. I think at that point guys will have a different view of what all this martial art interplay really depends on and just what they- with their new skills- will NOT be offering to uke, and just how few-who dismissed this training will be capable of handling them in any substative way. Truly the level of cooperation for these guys-then- to do aikido will be such a bore as to be staggering. They will, by defualt, have to become teachers. Well, in the near future as these people change -everyone is going to shift and want to take ukemi for these guys anyway. Does that make more sense? Personally, I think it will be great for Aikido.

George's views are such a pleasure reading simply because he tries to be inclusive yet is very blunt about the community and its underlying defensiveness and sensitivity to being outclassed by juniors.I am more hopeful than that. I think many people are fundamentally honest and forthright. Many will feel it, and as the power is simply undeniable, they will want it. In time things are going to change. Of course there are absolute asses and passive agressives who will play out their personality issues all over their juniors-I have a list of names folks say should NEVER be allowed to learn this as they are currently abusers of students, but power is a VERY weird leveling device in the hands of good people. It puts asses where they belong. On their asses.
Now, since I am hopeful that many if not most in aikido will be able to handle it and are on the nice side of things-I think things will turn out alright. Hey, in the long run, Aikido may once again have some steak, instead of just fizzle, behind the sizzle.
What will be interesting to watch is how the organizational power shifts happen when midlevel just stop going to seminar of big shots who either have nothing or teach nothing. there were big shifts before, it may be interesting to watch.

Last edited by DH : 03-03-2008 at 12:04 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 01:00 PM   #24
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Of course two of equal power can "pull off" a demonstration if they are both vested in making the waza look like the waza. Its why I mentioned differentiating between classic jujutsu, aikijujutsu, or any art where you "do" a waza, and then compare it to judo/ jujutsu or even push hands where you are only "vested" in winning over the other guy.
In that venue both would be trying to be fully -on.
So in a complete sense-there is no way someone with good structure, and with good power and experience in using it is going to attack a teacher and said teacher be able to pull off anything that looks like that demo-isn't gonna happen.
Hey Dan, just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you earlier. I agree with everything you wrote here. However, since we're here on Aikiweb (and supposed to be talking about Aikido in particular) I try to limit my scope accordingly. A lot of time I think some of my comments get mis-understood as defending the status quo or for saying how things "should be" when I'm actually talking about how things are. I think that as Aikido exists there is a decent amount of collusion in the outcome. To attack/take ukemi as you describe (while completely valid and actually more along the lines of how I attempt to train) is outside of the paradigm of Aikido. OSensei (while perhaps not as clear about his waza as we would have liked) was pretty clear about what he expected from his attackers. Big, simple, and (arguably) over-committed attacks were what he expected. Now again, to be clear, I'm not saying this is how I train, or what I think is the right way to even get at "aiki". I've stated plenty of times that what I'm doing isn't Aikido anymore, in no small part because of the change in the interaction between uke and nage. Akuzawa talks about being effectively ostracized from his DR dojo as he became harder and harder to throw (presumably, by doing something similar to what you describe above). Even there, it was outside of the training paradigm. Just look at the extent that Tomiki was erased from Aikido's history for introducing and promoting a non-cooperative *aspect* to what he was teaching.

Finally, I think it's helpful to distinguish the (potential) differenced between:
- what Aikido is today
- what we *think* the founder may have intended it to be
- what we personally *think* it should be, or how it should be trained
- and what we want our own personal training (aikido or not) to be

For me, each of those four things is very different.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 02:21 PM   #25
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,215
United_States
Offline
Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

I always encourage my 300lb son, "beefcake boy" as Ledyard sensei refered to him as, to resist me. He doesn't really need much encouragement as he tends to enjoy stopping the old man's technique anyway. At the Okinawa Aikikai, resistance was encouraged. At least to the point one could withstand the pain that went along with resistance. Don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that I or my son are capable of resisting in the same manner or at the same level that Dan Harden is capable of. I think he is on a completely different level than I am. However, I think the "compliant" uke thing should only come after one has mastered the ability to perform aikido technique on a resistive uke. How resistive that is depends wholly upon the level of both nage and uke.
I love the way Dan Harden challenges my current training paradigms. Dan, I'd love to bring you to Vegas sometime for some hands on. I know you've said you don't do seminars but perhaps if I bribe you with a nice room at the Golden Nugget you could be persuaded.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Mugendo Budogu - Dogi cut to specifically to wear with hakama!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Masahilo Nakazono Memorial Aikido Event 27th October 2007 AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 5 11-11-2007 04:14 AM
Takeda Satoshi sensei (6th dan) in Berlin, 11/17-19 AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 09-24-2006 06:43 PM
Aiki Expo Thoughts (Long!) akiy Seminars 5 09-29-2003 10:15 PM
Seminar/Event: Seminar with Satoshi Takeda sensei in Australia AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 09-02-2002 02:54 PM
Seminar/Event: Saito Sensei Seminar Update AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 09-17-2001 01:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:33 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate