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Old 02-29-2008, 01:07 PM   #26
jss
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
He is very explicit on how to develope ki.
That's not explicit! That's saying "Train the complete system and the parts will develop naturally at the correct pace." No system is that great that it guarantees this.
And he's not far from saying that musicians shouldn't practice scales, athletes shouldn't do power training, etc.

The most explicit he gets is:
Quote:
Tissier wrote:
That is right because the technique will unlock the body! Once you have unlocked your body and removed all fears, the gesture will be fluid and this will allow more kokyu. If you add an intention to this kokyu, the Ki will naturally occur.
The issues I have with his approach:
1. The technique will unlock the body: so you need good technique before you can get kokyu. So technique is a means to acquire kokyu! I'd say it's the other way around.
2. Removing fear is not that important to develop these skills. If he was talking about applying them in an actual fight, different story.
3. The gesture will be fluid. Performing a technique with fluid movements indicates skill ... at moving fluently when opposed by a well conditioned aikido uke. I'm not interested.
4. Adding intention to kokyu so that the ki will naturally occur: classic sources talk about adding intention to ki to manifest kokyu. Yet again, other way around.

And Ron, those are 4 reasons why I (imho, ymmv, etc.) am not that inclined to give Tissier the benefit of the doubt. Begging the question by making incorrect statements rather indicates ignorance than unwillingness to share his insights in an interview.

Last edited by jss : 02-29-2008 at 01:08 PM. Reason: html issue
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:24 PM   #27
Timothy WK
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

I think it's possible to read him graciously. I've met a few high-ish level practitioners that seem to manifest certain aspects of these skills (in a very unrefined sort of way), but they acquired their ability through some type of personal intuition, rather than explicit instruction. As such, they couldn't seem to articulate the how/what/why's of their actions, other than through the type of vague, stereotypical, and often quasi-spiritual language that Tissier used.

Now, without feeling him, given his statements I would be skeptical of his internal abilities. His general dismissive attitude seems to communicate an ignorance of the skills Rob and Mike are talking about. But his statements aren't necessary "wrong"---if you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt... alot of benefit...

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
1. The technique will unlock the body: so you need good technique before you can get kokyu. So technique is a means to acquire kokyu! I'd say it's the other way around.
2. Removing fear is not that important to develop these skills. If he was talking about applying them in an actual fight, different story.
3. The gesture will be fluid. Performing a technique with fluid movements indicates skill ... at moving fluently when opposed by a well conditioned aikido uke. I'm not interested.
4. Adding intention to kokyu so that the ki will naturally occur: classic sources talk about adding intention to ki to manifest kokyu. Yet again, other way around.
1. Good structure (posture, body alignment, balance, etc) does facilitate (but not guarantee) body connection and other internal skills. The problem with starting with technique is there are tons of variables (timing, force, distance, etc) that can steal one's attention away from the internal stuff. Also note that this is a classic Japanese approach---work on a technique/movement until it becomes ingrained and imparts a sense of internal awareness, and then use that internal awareness to develop further internal skill.

2. I think "fear of failing" can, at least subconsciously, drive people to "force" techniques/movements with muscle, rather than "let them happen" internally. So it depends on how one interprets "fear".

3. If "unlocking the body" means improving one's structure, good structure does promote (but not guarantee) relaxation, and thus "fluidity".

4. "Intention", "kokyu", and "ki" are inherently vague terms, particularly for people who aren't familiar with "classic sources". I doubt he would define them the way you (or the internal crowd) have. Please note that's not saying he's right and you're wrong, or that "ki"/"kokyu" is simply a matter of personal interpretation. I'm just saying that you're judging his statements based on your own assumptions, not necessarily on his intended message.

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:41 PM   #28
Jack M.
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Ki Symbol Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

If Ki does not occur naturally, that is, if it is not already present in nature, then how can it be developed? From my understanding it is everywhere, it's just that something must be done to cultivate and utilize it.

Since I'm such a newbie, maybe I am misunderstanding. Perhaps a separate thread entitled What is Ki? would be helpful (at least to me!).

Thanks!
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:43 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

I am with both Joep and Tim...

Basically, I was TRYING to be polite in what I said. After feeling somewhat attacked by a certain post, I was a LITTLE less polite, but still trying.

At this point everyone knows what they need to know, whether polite or not, so...

Audios...
B,
R(I think I spelled that wrong, but my spanish is worse than my japanese)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:28 PM   #30
jss
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Now, without feeling him, given his statements I would be skeptical of his internal abilities. His general dismissive attitude seems to communicate an ignorance of the skills Rob and Mike are talking about. But his statements aren't necessary "wrong"---if you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt... alot of benefit...
They may not necessarily be "wrong", but taken as a whole they are not consistent with my understanding of ki and kokyu.
If we read Tissier's reply for what it is, his method goes as follows:
1. Unlock body through technique.
2. Remove fears.
Result: Fluid gestures, thus more kokyu.
3. Add intention to kokyu.
Result: ki will occur naturally.

Question 1: what skill, if any, is developed?
Question 2: why would one want to let ki occur naturally?

Last edited by jss : 02-29-2008 at 03:40 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:33 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

heart leads mind
mind leads qi
qi leads li

How does that fit into his statement?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:26 PM   #32
Irv Lachow
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
From the thread, New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Does anyone else think that is the gist of the interview?

David
No.
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:56 PM   #33
Upyu
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
He is very explicit on how to develope ki.

Christian Tissier,

"We could of course develop exercises such as the ones proposed by Qigong in order to specifically work on breathing. We could also specifically work on flexibility or other things but to what end? I consider Aikido as a whole system that as been well thought. It is therefore useless to concentrate on only one aspect of the art, in particular if it is to the expense of practice time."

David
How is that explicit?
Not to mention the fact that he simply screws up talking about Qiqong, since Qigong isn't working on "breathing", rather the "breathing" in Qiqong works on something else in the body (assuming you've been shown how to do it)
But that's fine, he's not a CMA guy,

If he had a specific understanding of Ki/Kokyu, I think he'd be able to describe either, what it is concretely, or how the "warm-up" exercises such as funekogi undou, furitama etc relate physically to their development.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:02 PM   #34
Upyu
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Jack Walter wrote: View Post
If Ki does not occur naturally, that is, if it is not already present in nature, then how can it be developed? From my understanding it is everywhere, it's just that something must be done to cultivate and utilize it.

Since I'm such a newbie, maybe I am misunderstanding. Perhaps a separate thread entitled What is Ki? would be helpful (at least to me!).

Thanks!
Mike S has already laid out some of the basic definitions in past posts. (If you can wade through the BS, the thread "Baseline Skillset" is a good place to start)

Suffice to say that Ki/Kokyu are both physical skills, separate but intertwined.
That being said you have to feel this stuff to understand it.
There's a guy in VA, close to you that could probably show you up close and personal with no BS

If you're still interested and want a more detailed explanation just PM me
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:15 PM   #35
Upyu
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Guillaume Erard wrote: View Post
One thing that I appreciated while talking to Mr Tissier was his modesty and openness towards other styles and ways. It does not seem to be the case for all of us here...
Guillaume:
No one is taking issue with Mr. Tissier's generosity, or his wonderful human nature.
That being said, being a "modest and open" and a wonderful human being does not mean you have these skills.

To be blunt, I don't think its his fault, and that if he actually doesn't have these skills (and watching his vids, there's not much there to show otherwise) I think its a shame that he studied xxx many years without gaining those skills, simply because xxx organization decided to promote him without teaching him that particular core skillset.

If some of us are blunt, its because we call it like we see it, and some of us have seen this kind of thing repeated again and again.
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:01 AM   #36
Shany
 
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

hehe christian said there are 2 groups in france that don't get along with each other, and he is soon coming to israel
i guess he means, his branch doesn't get along with the branch i'm studying at (tamura branch) and that the styles we different.

funny to read it, it seems hes got some 'anger' inside.
its just aikido!!!
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Old 03-01-2008, 11:33 AM   #37
Timothy WK
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
They may not necessarily be "wrong", but taken as a whole they are not consistent with my understanding of ki and kokyu...
Uh, I guess I can be more explicit:

I think it's possible to read Tissier as one of those practitioners with a rudimentary and unrefined level of internal skill, who are (for all practical purposes) unable to articulate how they acquired their abilities, what exactly they're doing in a practical sense, and why they're doing it. As such, one should read his statements as incomplete and inadequate for training purposes.

An issue I have is that the practitioners I met that fit the above description had no frame of reference for discussing or even describing what they were doing, other than through the vague platitudes you hear all the time ("relax", "extend", "move from the center", etc.). Their words (again, for all practical purposes), were meaningless, but I could feel something when we worked together.

But I'm rambling. My point is that not everyone has the vocabulary to discuss what they're doing. There certainly *are* people in the mainstream Aikido world that posses certain aspects of these skills. I don't want to fault or deny them because they were never taught how to articulate the how/what/why's.

But with that said, again, I'm highly skeptical that Tissier is one of those people. He's VERY smooth, and I bet he has decently strong technique. But he doesn't have that "unified" or "simple" looking movement I consider a tell-tale of internal skill. And the people I've met with a rudimentary level of internal skill usually acknowledge that there's something to what they're doing, unlike Tissier.

[edit] Compare this video of Tissier with this video of Takeda Yoshinbu. It's fairly obvious how Tissier is throwing his weight around to power his throws. But Takeda hardly moves, it barely looks like he's doing anything at all. [/edit]

Last edited by Timothy WK : 03-01-2008 at 11:44 AM.

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Old 03-01-2008, 02:40 PM   #38
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!)

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
hehe christian said there are 2 groups in france that don't get along with each other, and he is soon coming to israel
i guess he means, his branch doesn't get along with the branch i'm studying at (tamura branch) and that the styles we different.

funny to read it, it seems hes got some 'anger' inside.
its just aikido!!!
Perhaps we can re-read this part of the interview:
Quote:
Tissier Sensei wrote:
I would like things to be very clear, I have always had the greatest respect for Tamura Sensei and I think he knows it. He is a great master who fully deserves the recognition he has. In the future, would like more connections between the groups. Even if the techniques and the conception of the grading are different, we must remember that we are all doing Aikido and that we share the same principles. We must learn to get along.
Personally, I sometimes feel closer to some people from the FFAB [the other French federation of Aikido] than from my own.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:31 AM   #39
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Ki does not exclude the other stuff

I admire Christian Tissier immensely, and I have always found him a sophisticated and quite philosophical aikido teacher, also one with impressive kokyu, and a strong flow of what I perceive as ki.

I also found his short comments on ki and kokyu development in the interview easy to agree with.

Without claiming that it is the view of Christian Tissier, I would say that I sometimes find aikidoists using ki as sort of a shortcut, where they seem to think that focus on ki makes other aspects of aikido training unnecessary.

In my experience, there is a whole needed. Posture, technique, breathing, even muscular work - when they are all considered, ki will indeed flow naturally.
I also regard the aikido techniques as clever stimulation of ki and kokyu, just by the way they are designed. And I have experienced it often on the tatami:
Many students who train in a way they regard as strictly physical, and never even mention ki, have it in abundance. And there are many aikidoists who focus almost solely on ki, and talk about it even more than I do - still, there is not much ki flowing through them.

Aikido develops your center, kokyu, and ki - even if you don't think about it, even if you don't believe in it. That is one of the many beauties of this art.

Stefan Stenudd
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