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Old 02-19-2008, 04:18 AM   #26
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

I nominate Kevin for the "aikiweb Dad" spot for his disgustingly reasonable responses (and can I borrow the card Thursday?)
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:02 PM   #27
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Jack Sharp wrote: View Post
...the black belt should be enough people,it is in all the other MAs
so we get rid of our hakama, and that will get rid of over-inflated egos?

there's as many people in other MAs wearing black belts who have hyperinflated egos as there are people in aikido who wear hakama.
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:25 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Hyperinflated bellies, too...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:55 PM   #29
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hyperinflated bellies, too...

B,
R
hahahahaa
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Old 02-19-2008, 03:34 PM   #30
mari
Dojo: Green Bay Aikikai
Location: Green Bay
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 28
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

i love my hakama, most of the time.. when practicing without it, I feel like i have lost my pants and that is not a good feeling
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:06 PM   #31
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Wear 'em, don't wear 'em, big deal... Anyone who is serious who's been training long enough quickly forgets about that crap. You work hard for years to get that black belt then you work hard for more years trying to figure it all out. The belt, hakama, keikogi, etc. just don't matter in the long run. That includes if you wear them or if you don't.

As an aside, I visited a friend's BJJ school. Lots of "camo" grappling shorts. Seemed to be the "official" pants of the school. I just kept thinking how useful camoflauge grappling shorts were in the ring... "Ooooh, where did he go?"

Everyone wears their uniform of one type or another. Be it their clothes, be it communicated through relationships, be it by authority, be it whatever. Every group has its ways of doing things. The social aspect shows itself eventually. Contrary to protestations there are always signs of hierarchy, authority, ego, and on and on... They just dress differently at each place...

You stay long enough you get to know everyone. You stay long enough you get to see people start and quit. Those who stay know each other and things like belts, hakama, etc. become meaningful only as the outfit you put on to go train. The rest is what you learn on the mat.

I just want a velcro one for when I'm running late. And the mythical self-folding hakama... that'd be nice...

So in many ways... they're just pants. And part of the tradition. We wear 'em from nikyu on in Seidokan. And who really cares if some numbnuts attaches too much significance to the things. People are entitled to their delusions, I'm too busy working on understanding my own...

So just train more.

It seems to me to be an issue *waaaaay* down at the very bottom of the priority scale...

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Old 02-21-2008, 10:15 AM   #32
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

For me I'm with Ian & Amir

What I'm trying to get my head around is the uber-sadistic idea of getting Kyu grades to wear the bl***y things.

Although even I have to admit they are incredibly good at crushing whatever pretensions to expertise I may have had. (nothing shrinks an ego like tripping over your Hakama)
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:18 PM   #33
jacksharp73
Dojo: one world aikido lakecity seattle washington
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Talking Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

hey guys i really appreciate evryones thoughts on the subject,it has really helped me wrap my head around the subject.its just that i ahve been to a few other dojo here in seattle and was told that only shodan and up wear that hakama and when i said that i dont feel comfortable without mine on the yodan said i couldn't train at that dojo then,i was hurt and very sad.why not allow a visitor from another dojo where their hakama to the session and should they decide that they want to join that dojo then as has been said "their house their rules".or am i TOTALLY in the wrong for my approach on the whole thing?
thanks alot guys you all are one heck of a help to me,
jack

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Old 02-22-2008, 05:45 PM   #34
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Jack Sharp wrote: View Post
why not allow a visitor from another dojo where their hakama to the session and should they decide that they want to join that dojo then as has been said "their house their rules".
If you came to visit my house, I'd ask you to take your shoes off. What would you do? Would you tell me "I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable without my shoes"? Would you find that at all rude?

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 02-22-2008, 06:36 PM   #35
ChS_23
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Cool Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
If you came to visit my house, I'd ask you to take your shoes off. What would you do? Would you tell me "I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable without my shoes"? Would you find that at all rude?
Let me try another example:
Would you ask a girl with a headscarf, to take it of while in your house?
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:18 PM   #36
Bronson
 
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Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Christian Schnarr wrote: View Post
Would you ask a girl with a headscarf, to take it of while in your house?
If it is my house I have that right. She can take it off or sit outside. My house, my rules.

Bronson

p.s. And before anybody asks "why would you make her take it off", I don't need a reason. Iit's my house and I said so is reason enough.

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-23-2008, 11:09 PM   #37
jacksharp73
Dojo: one world aikido lakecity seattle washington
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 13
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

i completely understand all of what you guys say however i must agree with bronson his house his rules and thats that,but hey we can still be friends even if we disagree right? i would also like to add that i will be taking and with all hopes passing my first 3rd kyu test so please everyone wish me luck i have been training really hard for the past few months and i think i finally got the footwork up to mediocre

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Old 02-23-2008, 11:10 PM   #38
jacksharp73
Dojo: one world aikido lakecity seattle washington
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

oh by the way i thought we were suposed to take our hats off indoors

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Old 02-23-2008, 11:43 PM   #39
jacksharp73
Dojo: one world aikido lakecity seattle washington
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

This is jack's wife...

I think there is one basic fallacy in the "shoes in the house" argument...and that would be that there is a practical reason for removing shoes indoors, especially if you have tatami or (like us) a crawling toddler..cleanliness for all concerned.

Whether someone trains in long white cotton underwear or hakama, on the other hand, will not affect the state of the dojo's socks or hasten the necessity for floor cleaning.

Just a thought, between endless rounds of running the vacuum.

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Old 02-24-2008, 02:00 AM   #40
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

There is a practical reason for asking jack to take of the hakama. In *that* particular dojo it's got a particular meaning attached to it. By the sensei, by the students. How do you think the other students would react to someone breaking one of their strong cultural tennants? Would they think it's fair. To go to someone elses house and say "hey I understand this is the way you and everyone else here does it but it makes me uncomfortable so I don't wanna" and then complain when you're told that will exclude you from participation seems....odd. If the hakama really doesn't mean anything why not just take it off when local rules dictate? And if it does mean something - then respect the meaning given by that club and take it off. Either way, take the damn thing off and train, or go down the road. Simple imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:03 AM   #41
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Jack Sharp wrote: View Post
the yodan said i couldn't train at that dojo then,i was hurt and very sad.why not allow a visitor from another dojo where their hakama to the session and should they decide that they want to join that dojo t
yep totally wrong imo. I personally would find it very rude for a visitor to express a desire to flout the rules I have laid down for my students. If it applies to my students who give me loyalty and are there every night- why would I be lax for some drop in? Are you suggesting that visitors should be able to pick and choose what rules they follow in a dojo based on their comfort?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:19 AM   #42
ChS_23
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Germany
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Arrow Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
If it is my house I have that right. She can take it off or sit outside. My house, my rules.
According to:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=16
I would say you are as much wrong, as you are right...
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:27 AM   #43
ChS_23
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Germany
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Talking Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
There is a practical reason for asking jack to take of the hakama. In *that* particular dojo it's got a particular meaning attached to it. By the sensei, by the students. How do you think the other students would react to someone breaking one of their strong cultural tennants? Would they think it's fair.
No...
...life isn't fair. So deal with it!
Or you have to keep the rest of the world out and live in a bubble. No visitors, no risk of confusion...
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:00 AM   #44
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

or...you expect your visitors to have the decency to follow your rules once they're politely explained. Those that refuse to you may likely be better off without.

You don't have to live in a bubble - thankfully the *vast* majority of visitors are happy to go along with the etiquette in a dojo they are guests in - so no problem.

This isn't a case of confusion, this is a case of a visitor expecting the hosts to *change* their rules to suit them.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:23 AM   #45
ChS_23
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Germany
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Wink Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
This isn't a case of confusion, this is a case of a visitor expecting the hosts to *change* their rules to suit them.
I hope that the term of "diplomatic immunity" can help you to see the difference.

The visitor does not want to change the dressing of the hosts. He just wants to keep his own dressing.

No rule without exceptions...

P.S.: hope I didn't confuse salad and clothes ;-)
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:29 AM   #46
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

exactly- he wants to change the rules for himself. What if someone came to your dojo and said that where he comes from people train in black belts from day one so he would like to wear his despite only having 3 months training? would your club say "sure" or would you chuck him one of the spare white belts.

There is no valid reason for expecting an exception to the rule here. Either take off the hakama and demonstrate you're prepared to follow the rules or take your leave.

If I was the instructor I would be concerned about such behaviour from a visitor and likely be happy to see them leave. If they want to make an exception to the rules on this - what other rules may they want to import from their dojo onto my mat? If they're prepared to be arrogant and rude enough to want to insist on their way rather than my way in my dojo, how are they likely to treat their partner? It raises a host of questions....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:42 AM   #47
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

and of course diplomatic immunity does not apply to tourists. If doshu shows up and wants to do something different, sure he can knock himself out.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:03 PM   #48
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

"Crying?" "You're Crying!!?!!" "There's no Crying in baseball!"

Your Hakama Koan for the day gentleman.

William Hazen
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:11 PM   #49
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

:d

Last edited by Aristeia : 02-24-2008 at 12:13 PM. Reason: ..

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-24-2008, 01:06 PM   #50
ChS_23
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Germany
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Cool Re: the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
What if someone came to your dojo and said that where he comes from people train in black belts from day one so he would like to wear his despite only having 3 months training? would your club say "sure" or would you chuck him one of the spare white belts.
We would say "sure". Maybe we would offer him a spare white belt, if he wants one, but the basic statement would be:
"Sure, be our guest! You are welcome as you are. Nice that you are here. Lets have a great training."

Treat others as you want to be treated...

The point is changing if he wants to join the club as a member.

Last edited by ChS_23 : 02-24-2008 at 01:10 PM.
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